medium chill - did I do this right?

[Sidney37]

I've decided that most of my relatives aren't particularly close to me, but to her and most are her flying monkeys.  I've taken huge steps away from them in recent years.  That was much easier.  I hate when my dad calls me and lectures me for "being mean" to my mother.  He has his own list of ways to avoid her and hide from her, but honestly he isn't able to make a single decision for himself.  She tells him everything he must do every day including what to eat and what clothes to wear.  He wants me to keep up with the way things always have been so he doesn't have to hear about it. 

Great! Awesome, that means she isn't bugging you nonstop to know every tiny little thing about your life. Which, if she's anything like my mom, she would promptly use as fodder to gossip with everybody else. There go your secrets...

That is part of what prompted me to realize I was deeply back in the FOG during her visit a few weeks ago.  I found out that she was telling her church friends all about medical issues I have had in the past year that are not the business of the people that she has told.  I'm not supposed to tell anyone anything about her.  She doesn't want me posting anything on social media that she doesn't like.  She's been known to call me to ask me to remove a post of something funny that one of my kids did.    But she can tell whoever she wants about my private medical issues.  Well they aren't going to be told to her either.

[illogical]

... I live several hours away but like many of you there is an expectation that I call every day and that she knows my location every day.  If I don't, the guilt trips start. 

That might be her expectation, but too bad.  You are changing the rules. 

You are an adult and you get to choose when and if you call your mother and how long you engage with her.  You are not a child anymore.  She does not have the financial power over you she once did.  She can no longer threaten to withhold money.  If she threatens disinheritance, you have to decide if a promise of inheritance is worth compliance with Her Majesty. 

I would start by letting a couple of days go by and not calling her.  Let her ring your phone off the wall.  Don't answer.  Let it go to v-mail.  You have stated in a previous post that she doesn't act out nearly as bad when your DH is around.  If you get a message on your cell that she is going to call the police or something drastic because she's in a panic as to your whereabouts, get your husband to call her back and say that you are very busy right now and will call her back when you have time.  Period. 

She won't like anything short of 100% compliance, as I stated in a previous post.  So get used to the fact she will probably pull out all the stops to keep you in line and not breaking away from the dysfunction.  There are lots of good ideas in the Toolbox on what to do and what not to do. 

I would start weaning her off your business.  Put her on an information diet.  Use a combo of medium chill and grey rock.  She will likely escalate her dysfunctional behavior when you don't back off.  There must, however, be consequences for her trampling your boundaries, and those consequences are that she doesn't get to engage with you as often.  You can choose how "honest" you want to be with her regarding your boundaries.  It has been my personal experience that telling a PD your plans is a big waste of time and actually can harm your strategy because it gives them more info-- i.e., ammo-- to twist and spin and use against you. 

Ignore the guilt she is trying to impose on you.  That's left over from your childhood.  Keep telling yourself that she has no power over you now.  You have the right to live your own life without interference from her.  You also have a responsibility to yourself to protect yourself from further abuse by her.  And her wanting to know where you are every second and why you don't call every day is abusive, in the sense that it's harassment and stalking-like behavior, as others have pointed out.

Keep to your boundaries and don't let her move you from your position with a guilt trip.  You haven't done anything wrong.  Tell yourself (you don't have to tell your mother) that "I have a boundary that I'm only going to call mother twice a week."  Then stick to it.  Get your husband to help you with communication.  If she waifs and freaks and cries that you are being mean, let her.   Stand in your castle with the drawbridge up and the moat filled with alligators (you can find these "alligators" in the Toolbox under "What to Do"). 

Regarding your dad, he and your mother are a "package deal".  Having one set of rules for your mother and another set for him likely won't work.  So any boundary you erect aimed at your mother will have to go for your father as well, Like only calling them once or twice a week.

[WomanInterrupted]

I agree - just because she expects to know your location, every moment of every day, doesn't mean she's *entitled* to that information.  You were out.  Or you were busy.  No, you didn't keep track of the time.  I dunno.  What are you, like, my parole officer? 

That one actually made Didi laugh, because I put on a comical, sort of incredulous voice when I said it - and I also didn't answer her question. 

Normally, Didi was privy to most of the information in my life, so I had to put her on a VERY strict Information Diet, that included not telling her a thing about my location or comings and goings, or I'd get a guilt trip about not inviting her along.   

So I  mainly stuck to, "Oh, I was busy."  Oh, you know - the usual.  Things and stuff around here.  You know how it is - never a dull moment at Casa de Funny Farm.     

That was the ONLY information she'd get out of me, before I'd turn it around and start talking about gardening, the weather, or stupid criminals who basically got themselves caught by authorities, because I could put a funny spin on those stories and get her off my butt.   

Your mother is going to hate  what you're doing, unless it's being totally compliant to her wishes, so it's best to get used to that now, and get comfortable with that guilty, uncomfortable feeling, while letting it sink in that NO, you are doing *nothing wrong.*   

And it may help to remember you're an *adult* and your mother can't actually DO anything to you:  she can't ground you.  She can't send you to your room without supper.  She can't take away your car keys or confiscate your phone.  She can't spank you!   

There is nothing she can do but use words and FOG to keep you under her thumb - unless YOU stop her with *boundaries.*   

As you put up boundaries and your mom fights against them or tramples them, consider  giving her a Time Out for X amount of time of your choosing - but if she keeps calling and calling, making more and more  ridiculous or outrageous statements that *you don't respond to until the Time Out is *over*     - you're going to notice something important.

She's probably going to start really annoying the hell out of you.  You may roll your eyes at first, or mutter, "Lady, give it a rest!" as you delete yet another voice mail  demanding this or that, but I'm willing to bet that one of these days, in the very near  future, your annoyance will  turn to *anger.*   

How DARE you?  Who the hell do you think you are?  You don't OWN me!  And I don't have to tell you a damned thing!   

Anger isn't always a negative emotion - we were told it was  when we were kids, and not allowed to express it, but it just isn't true.  Anger can be a positive emotion when it causes us to think about things and make changes in our lives.   

It's REALLY easy to lay down boundaries and not take any PD crap  once you get *angry* about it - but never, ever let it reflect in your voice and words, when dealing with her.   

That was Didi's fatal mistake with me - she made me good and angry, which made all that FOG lift.  I could see clearly she was trying to manipulate me, and I wasn't having it.   

I think you're going to get to that point soon, because your mother sounds like a totally toxic piece of work - especially when she insists you're being short, rude and snippy with her, when you aren't.

Remember what Illogical said about, "I'm sorry you feel that way.  I'll talk to you later when you're not so upset..." - and ending the conversation.   

One of those times, you're going to hang up, give your phone the old Stink Eye and say, "What a b....!"   

Believe it or not, that's PROGRESS.   

You've GOT this, Sidney!   

Let her stew for a few days - and consider skipping the Obligatory Easter Call, if that's your thing.  If put to the question later about it, tell her only that you were busy and lost track of time  - then change the subject.   

If she can't keep a civil tongue in her head and starts making demands - end the call.  "You're upset.  We'll talk later.  Goodbye."   

And consider putting her in an even *longer* Time Out.   

No, it won't make her change or  behave, but it'll give you more time and distance, and you'll start to put things in perspective, which is the important part.   

[Sidney37]

Thanks all.  I'm not sure why this is harder than it seems. I guess years and years of guilt and manipulation have landed me at this point.   I haven't talked to her in several days.  But now I think I'm now getting the silent treatment.  She's made no effort to call me, which should be a blessing, but it's stressing me out as to what's to come when I do talk to her.

To add to all of the rest, she is furious that when I had less than 48 hours over spring break this week to take my kids somewhere fun, they picked an activity/location in a city that was about 1-2 hours from her house.   We didn't have time to visit her, too.  We had less than 48 hours because we had to be back home for something.  They had 3 things in that particular city that they had been asking to do for years, none of which my parents would have spent the money to do or would want to participate in.   We called and told her that we were going when in the car on the way.  It was a "we're so excited...guess what fun thing we decided to do today" call.  My kids were excited about the last minute trip, and she was furious because we were so close and not visiting her.  We just saw her for over a week 2 weeks ago and frankly, it didn't go well. 

I decided to tell her because my oldest is on social media, had every intention of posting about this fun thing we were doing and my parents would have seen the post.  I didn't need them posting something passive aggressive or nasty as a reaction and upsetting my child in front of school friends.  We had such little time there that I didn't contact even one of my 10+ friends who live in the area to get together with them.  My in-laws live nearby, and we didn't make arrangements to see them either.  This was a 2 day trip for my kids to do whatever they wanted to do and had been asking to do for 2 years.  It was also the first vacation (while short) that didn't involve any grandparents in years.  Not one of my parenting decisions was questioned or undermined!  That's certainly a win!

So, I didn't call for several days and I was in a town close to them and didn't visit.  My heart is racing from the stress of what she will say when I do talk to her.   I feel like I'm as stressed as I would have been if I snuck out in the middle of the night and got caught as a teen (which is something I never would have done).  I agree, there is no consequence other than the nasty comments, threatening to disinherit me (which I totally don't care about, there likely won't be much of anything to inherit) and the smear campaign.  I've been taught that it's terrible to look bad in front of other people and the way she will twist this for the people we both know will certainly make me look awful.  My DH questions why I care when I don't  live there anymore. He's right, so I'm not sure what has me so worried.  Then again, he doesn't talk to his family for months at a time.  I'm also so afraid that I will screw up the medium chill and gray rock and end up snapping at her.  I keep practicing the things in the tool box, but in the heat of the moment, I'm afraid that I will forget how to respond and give too much information that will lead to more interrogation.  This shouldn't be so stressful! 

[illogical]

Hi Sidney37,

Yes, you are right in your assessment that "I guess years and years of guilt and manipulation have landed me at this point."  It's called "grooming" or brainwashing.  You have been groomed to take the blame for stuff you didn't do, as well as take responsibility for your mother's moods and feelings, none of which ever were are are now your responsibility.

Celebrate the Silent Treatment!  I would stake a large bet that when your mother grows tired of punishing you, she will call you up and very likely act like nothing has happened. 

Have a script of Medium Chill and Grey Rock responses handy to grab when she does call.  Take a few deep breaths after she says whatever it is she says.  You don't have to give an immediate response.  Say "Oh" or "Hmm" or "Well" to buy yourself a few seconds to look at your script and give her a Medium Chill or Grey Rock.  If you feel the conversation is escalating, or you feel she is pushing you to defend yourself or explain, i.e., JADE, end the conversation.  "Gotta go now.  Very, very busy." 

It's normal to feel like you do-- apprehensive-- because you know she's not going to respond well.  Very likely she will either try to sweep everything under the rug that has happened (after she feels she has "punished" you enough with the Silent Treatment) or she will call and put on the Waif Act or the You're So Mean to Me act.  Grab your script of responses, give a minimal response and then say "Sorry you feel that way" and get off the phone!  If she protests that you won't talk to her, say "I said I'm busy and I'm going to end this conversation."  Then end it. 

I know it's hard right now, but you can do this.  You don't have to see her in person.  Don't do that until you are ready.  Keep phone conversations to a minimum.  Don't call her right now.  Let her call you.  Then be prepared!  Take care.

[Sidney37]

So here's the update.   I didn't talk to them for 3 days, 2 of which I was out of town.  I called twice today at times I knew they were home.  I could tell from their online presence/posts that they were there.  They didn't answer nor did they call me back.  Now tonight the passive aggressive meme posting about how people treat each other has begun.    There was daily passive aggressive meme posting of the same "how to treat your parents" memes when they gave me the silent treatment for months several years ago.  That time, before I found this site,  I flipped out and yelled at her over something totally inappropriate/downright mean that she said/did during a serious family emergency.  She left my house in the middle of the emergency when I needed help and gave me the silent treatment for months after.  She totally blamed me because I yelled and swore at her.  She made me feel like it was my fault because I snapped.  Nothing she did was wrong in her opinion. 

This time I'm getting the silent treatment and passive aggressive memes because I took a short trip with my kids near their house that didn't include them and didn't call for 3 days - 3 days!    If it's like it was the last time, I'll have my name removed as beneficiary on their life insurance policy and they won't talk to me for months.  Of course, that's fine with me.  If I'm no longer executor or POA I don't have to do anything as they age.  Nothing.  I have heard before if I really loved them I would call every day.  It only takes a few minutes to call and it's disrespectful not to.  That's not normal, right?  Some of my friends do talk to their parents daily, but this seems crazy.  WI, my annoyance has turned to anger already.  It didn't take long.  She's not sweeping this under the rug, but pulling out all of the stops and it puts my PTSD into overdrive.

[WomanInterrupted]

I'm sorry, Sidney - but eventually, you're going to be okay!   

I'd take this opportunity to invite your DH and kids - and you - to BLOCK AWAY. 

Use the Silent Treat to initiate No Contact.  Block social media.  Block phone numbers.  Block email.  Everywhere you can - just block them.   

You did *nothing wrong.*  A 1-2 hour drive is "only" a 1-2  hour drive if  something *positive* awaits at the end of it  - and nothing positive awaited at the end of the drive to see your parents.   

Instead, you had a nice time - focus on that, and fie and a pox on your parents.   

IME, it is *not normal* to call a parent or parents every single day - that's what unBPD  Didi  had me trained to do, and as soon as I decided to put limits on that, she couldn't contain herself, either insisting I was *hiding* things from her (yeah, my entire life, so she couldn't  tell me everything I was doing wrong!    ) or having herself hospitalized for more of the same old, same old.   

Keep that anger - allow it to settle in.  How DARE you?  The NERVE of you!  You are UNREASONABLE and this relationship is unsustainable.  I am NOT sitting on a shelf, waiting for my marching orders   -  nobody in this family does that.  We are not your SERVANTS  or your SERFS - and we're definitely not your cardboard cut-outs, appearing only in pictures to impress others because the optics are good for you, when we  get nothing but shame, grief, misery, aggravation and annoyance when we visit your liar.   

Get *comfortable* with it.  Sit with it.  Let it work in.   

That's the REAL narrative - not the one your parents feed you.

They can keep deluding themselves - you know the truth. 

And yes - if you suspect they have nothing but complications, being removed as a beneficiary on the life insurance and as POA are a *blessing.*   

If they're throwing that at you, SURPRISE!  You were IT!  The one they chose to move in with or demand you spend the majority of time at theirs as a  CAREGIVER, while having no  life of your own and ignoring your own FOC! 

You will earn every penny of it, ten times over, in your blood, sweat, tears, mental anguish, and the constant emotional torture of never being able to do a single thing right, fast enough, cheerful enough, etc...

That's my experience, anyway - and I avoided it by avoiding Didi and Ray like the plague. 

If your sibs decide to do the same thing - GOOD.  They deserve better.   

Your parents made their own mess - they can clean it up, and live without you as an emotional  toilet for all their problems, phobias, anxieties and medical problems, either real, imagined or tarted up, because cancer is the new sexy now  and everybody should come running at the mere mention of it!   

Like Galadriel, I went to the West - but I didn't diminish.   

Didi and Ray did, without the farce they wanted, propping them up and *covering* for them, while pretending to fake concern or caring.

That was  too  emotionally damaging.   I opted out. 

You can do the same  - let the anger lead you to make *healthy* decisions, and you'll be okay. 

It takes as long as it takes, but know you ARE doing the right thing in protecting yourself and arming your FOC with the consent to BLOCK!   

[Sidney37]

Thanks again WI for the validation and encouragement.  I spent last night reading about covert narcissism.  Deep down I think I wasn't sure that my mom was really a PD because she wasn't a stereotypical narcissist and didn't have the symptoms of BPD . She really doesn't fit any of the others.   I read article after article to my DH about covert narcissism and together we checked off every box.  Somehow confirming that she truly is a narcissist helped it to all sink in.  Years of being here without it totally sinking in, but then reading example after example helped it to all make sense.  It helped me to understand that she is certainly toxic even if other people see her as something very different than we do.  One article actually said that NC is often the only way to deal with covert narcissists.  It's apparently easier to use MC and gray rock with other PDs, but apparently much less likely to work with covert narcissists.  This certainly isn't going to be easy.

[Sidney37]

Can I post links to articles here?  I found it today and it really hit home. This explains the difference between an overt and covert narcissist.  I didn't know that covert narcissism existed until recently.  It's apparently what I've been dealing with my entire life.  It explains so much.  I always thought of NPD in a certain way.  It didn't quite fit, because I was just thinking about and reading about the symptoms of overt narcissism.  This is long, but explains exactly what is going on and how I react to it.   

http://parenting.exposed/the-covert-narcissistic-parent/

[Duck]

That article is very interesting. Thank you for posting it. I agree with WI that it isn't normal to call parents every day. It is especially not normal to say anything akin to "It's disrespectful not to" or "you would if you really loved me." Regarding the latter phrase, I've  learned that if anyone says, "If you really loved me, you would..." I should run immediately in the other direction.

I can think of no person I want to talk to on the phone other day. For me, it is normal to be busy with my life and have multiple friends such that I am not dependent on any one person for my emotional sustenance.

[Sidney37]

Do you ever just say some version of "because it's not reasonable to talk to you ever day" or "I shouldn't have to call you daily"?   I'm going 2-3 days without talking and now my dad is posting snarky memes on social media about how to treat people, likely because she is lying and manipulating.  I've said I'm "busy" when interrogated as to why I haven't called, and changed the subject, but they are clearly angry.  Conversations are short and she is very passive aggressive at which point I say I have to go. 

He doesn't know any of the mean, controlling comments she made when she was here a few weeks ago, so he thinks I'm limiting contact for no reason.  He only hears her crying about how mean I am to her.  Do I tell him?  Is it even with defending myself to the enabler who is more controlled and bossed around than I am?

[illogical]

Do you ever just say some version of "because it's not reasonable to talk to you ever day" or "I shouldn't have to call you daily"?   I'm going 2-3 days without talking and now my dad is posting snarky memes on social media about how to treat people, likely because she is lying and manipulating.  I've said I'm "busy" when interrogated as to why I haven't called, and changed the subject, but they are clearly angry.  Conversations are short and she is very passive aggressive at which point I say I have to go. 

He doesn't know any of the mean, controlling comments she made when she was here a few weeks ago, so he thinks I'm limiting contact for no reason.  He only hears her crying about how mean I am to her.  Do I tell him?  Is it even with defending myself to the enabler who is more controlled and bossed around than I am?

I think if you give a reason for not calling every day you are JADEing and setting yourself up for a circular conversation.  Your mother is very likely going to attack any reason you give for not calling daily, no matter how "reasonable" it is.  To her, any thing short of 100% compliance is not reasonable.

You do not have to give a reason for not calling every day.  It's your life and your time-- you get to choose whom you spend it with and how often you engage.    IMHO, if you give your mother a reason, she will just pick it apart, or put on the "How Could You Be So Mean To Me" Act and you are back at square one.

I also would not try to "explain things" to your father.  He is a "package deal" with your mother.  Anything you say to him will go straight to her as though there were a pipeline attached between them.

My advice is for you to stick to your boundaries.  Be prepared for your mother to escalate when she figures out she's getting no where with the Silent Treatment.  A "medical emergency" is clearly within the realm of possibility.  She might be on the verge of another "breakdown".  I think it's critical here that you remain in control and don't go rushing to her side, should something like this happen.  Show her through your behavior that she doesn't control you.  This is a power struggle, but you have the power.

[Sidney37]

No medical emergency yet!  Thank goodness.  I didn't call for days.  We talked today.  I mentioned someone she hardly knows losing their job as a way to keep the topic off of her insulting or talking about me.  It seemed like a good, boring topic that would't interest her.  I was caught by surprise when this took a turn to why that person should have picked a different college degree and then criticism after criticism about why I didn't finish a particular advanced degree, how my college major was wrong, how all of my job and career choices were wrong and how I should have just listened to her to have gotten it right.  Of course her memory about why my advanced degree wasn't finished was incorrect.  He memory about why my major was what it was - incorrect, too.    In her mind all of these things were totally my fault for being a quitter,  failure and making totally wrong choices about everything I did.   I felt like I was JADEing by reminding her that she was totally wrong about why these things played out the way they did.  She still wouldn't let it go.  I tried to change the subject and she kept it up.  I told her that I had to get ready to pick my kids up from school (2 hours before pick up time!!!) and hung up.  Ugh...  She's showing her true colors and I'm not really interested in talking to her at all.  No wonder I struggled to pick a major and a career.  It didn't matter what decisions I have ever made.  They aren't hers, therefore they are wrong, wrong, wrong. 

[WomanInterrupted]

I'm so sorry, Sidney!   

You're finding out - just like I found out - that NO topic is really safe to discuss, because it always manages to get turned around to make you look stupid or bad, and somehow, she's a victim, because *you didn't listen to her.*

My response to that was:

1.  Call even *less* and ignore all barbs about she thought I was dead or had run away from home, and counter only with, "I was busy" *without elaborating.* 

Busy.  Oh, the usual.  I don't want to bore you.  You know - never a dull moment. 

2.  Stick to ONLY gardening or the weather as topics, which gets really boring, really quickly and gets you off the phone - oh, gotta go.  Talk to you soon. 

3.  DO NOT respond to prodding, prompting, nosy, inquisitive questions that really  are none of her business, because they'll be turned around and used against you.

4.  Be boring AF.  I mean, bucket of wallpaper paste boring. 

5.  As soon as the claws come out, *end the call* - ring your own doorbell, if you have to, or make your dryer buzz.  Set the timer off - *any*  prompt that signals you have something else to do is helpful, until you're comfortable enough in saying, "I have to go" without a sound to back you up. 

6.  If she starts working herself into a froth, you can always say, "I can't talk to you when you're this upset.  We'll talk again soon." - and hang up.

"Soon" is open to *your* interpretation - and I'd make it at least a week. 

7.  If she insists you should be calling daily, it might be time to push back with, "That's not possible."

When asked WHY - "I just told you why.  It's not possible."

If she demands a reason, "Because I said so" works well because you're basically dealing with a toddler in an adult's body - and she should be treated as such. 

[Sidney37]

Thanks for the suggestions!  I needed to hear those.   

I'm finding that a gradual switch from every day calls and no privacy/boundaries is better than totally switching it off.  When I tried this before I went "cold turkey" so to speak and it was a nightmare.  She was raging angry and ended up in the hospital, but this time she is just very  insulting, giving me guilt trips and passive aggressive.   I'm extending the days longer and longer each time - 1-2 days in between, 2-3 days.  My goal is about 4-5 days or a week, but at this rate it might be much longer between calls.  Less extreme changes and not raging this way.  I should have thought of that before now.  It's truly like training a toddler.   

I thought I was onto something by talking about people who she doesn't know, so she felt like she was getting personal info, but really she wasn't because it was about people she didn't know at all.  Well that backfired, didn't it?  I'm going to have to make a list of topics that are totally boring.  I kept trying to talk about the weather today as a way to distract, but that didn't get me more than about 45 seconds of conversation.  Rain was an excuse for her to complain about all of the things my father couldn't do because it was raining.

What else did you talk about?  Did you have a list?  Did you talk about Didi herself?  Did you ask about her, her friends, any activities she might have?  I don't want to feed into her desire to say mean things about me because any question about her friends or activities turns into how their children visit or do those activities with them.   I asked her about how the sermon was at Easter services and got a guilt-trippy list of all of my former classmates who came to town to see their mothers for Easter.  I didn't ask that.  I asked what the sermon was about, because I didn't think that would get me guilt-tripped.  I asked again.  Another guilt trip about who was there and I wasn't.  I asked about the music.  What songs did you sing.  Another guilt trip.  You're right.  I don't think any topic is safe.  The doorbell trick is a good idea.  What happens when she asks days later who was at the door? 

[WomanInterrupted]

I tried that "training" - and it backfired in that Didi had herself hospitalized, over and over, for makeitupitis!   

BUT - I refused to visit, at all.  Her hospitalizations did *not* require me to live in Fire Drill Mode. 

First - who was at the door?

I dunno.  They left by the time I got there.   

Or you could say it was stuff from Amazon, and refuse to elaborate, leaving it with stuff you needed.   

Didi was the one who drove the conversation along, usually complaining about her health, who wronged her today, how much the neighbors hate her,  how she hates everybody in her miniature club because they're all jealous of her, the latest fight she had with unNPD Ray, and what her poop looked like this time.

Yeah.  Poop.  Like I freakin' CARE.   

Once, she actually told me to come over and look at it because it looked so strange.  I declined with, "That's just not possible.  If you're concerned, call your doctor."

The woman literally *never* shut the F up!  She was always yapping about something, so I mainly had to sit there and say, "Hmmm."  "Gee."  "That's something."  "That's a shame."  "Oh, you don't say."  "Huh."  - and push back with boundaries when she started demanding I do things, like visit ("I'll see what I can do, but can't promise anything"), make her disgusting watermelon rind pickles or bacon (NO, you can't just treat it like placing an order or you get, "I'll see what I can do..." - and what I could do was NOTHING!   ), look up phone numbers because she didn't know how to use a phone book ("The internet is down"), order things for her on Ebay or Amazon (The internet is down or the site wasn't working), and get her back on track with *calling her DOCTOR* about health problems, because I'm not her personal concierge physician! 

Most of the phone calls ended after only a few minutes, and with her slamming the phone down on me because she wasn't getting a supply.   

I considered that success, and would only call again on MY schedule - which went from daily, to every other day, to every 3rd day, once a week, once every 10 days, once every 2 weeks, and finally once every 3 weeks, unless she was in the hospital for more than a few days.

Then I'd call when I thought she'd be having a meal, out for testing or watching something on TV.       

She asked me what she should do about her many medical problems and I told her to talk to her doctor.  She said she didn't want to *bother* him and only I could answer that question for her.

I told her she was out of luck, because I'm not a doctor - SLAM! 

She wanted me enmeshed - and I wanted to be free of her, so I had to *force* the issue and tell her absolutely nothing about me, my DH or his travel schedule, our pets, my life - nothing at all.  Not a crumb.  I was just busy with things, the usual, you know. 

In retrospect, I wouldn't have done it that way.  I'd have blocked her number and gone NC without all the backing out of the room, slowly stuff.  If she wound up in the hospital?

Too bad. 

The few times she did let me talk, it was about gardening, the weather, or stupid criminals who basically got themselves caught, like the guy who had the word "jeanous" tattooed on his forehead!   

I'd run out of material *very* quickly and it wouldn't take her long to get angry, because she was getting NO engagement from me - and every single call  would devolve into her health, she'd get a boundary about calling her doctor and SLAM!   

IME, *nothing* we do makes a difference, but we learn to become comfortable with our own discomfort, start getting angry and disgusted, and *detach* - we see these people clearly and it's breathtaking just how self-centered they really are, without an iota of self-awareness!

If I were you, I'd let your mom drive the conversation, and if you've really got nothing to contribute, end the call.  You ARE busy, after all.  Just tell her you've got to get going, you'll talk again "soon."   

If she demands to know why you have to hang up, tell her you're very busy and it's really none of her concern. 

It'll go over like a fart at a wedding, and she'll be pissed - but she's going to be angry no matter what you do, so it's best to just get used to it and *stop caring what she thinks.* 

[Sidney37]

Oh saying it's UPS or an Amazon order, perfect.   That will work.  I doubt she'll ask what the package was. 

I wish she was rambling on and on.  She's so mad over the decrease in calls, that she's just pouting, being passive aggressive and bringing up issues that happened 20 years ago to mock me, taunt me or put me down.  I get right of the phone, but what were once 20-30 minute calls of me giving her too much info about me are now her 3-5 minutes of her pouting and then being passive aggressive and me getting off the phone.   

This is just hard and stressful.  I feel like I need a  coach telling me what to say when I do talk to them.  Last night it was the guilt trippy phone call from my enD who was very passive aggressive about why I hadn't called lately.  I used the "we've been busy" line, but kept getting interrogated.  I gave in and said that I've called their house a few times over the past few weeks, but no one answered.  I figured that they are just so busy that they don't have time to talk.  I said that they should just call me when they aren't so busy.   What he doesn't know is that I know that she isn't actually answering when I have called.  I know she was actually there.   My uPDm was playing facebook games which send out requests to all of her friends.  I tried calling a few times just after I got the game requests.  She only plays those games at home on her tablet and she didn't answer.  It's her version of punishment.  She's not answering when I call and then telling him that she hasn't "talked to" me in days.  Part of the reason she hasn't "talked to" me is because she was trying to give the silent treatment because she is mad.  She doesn't realize that this game playing is childish and while I might have played along years ago, I honesty don't have the time or patience to deal with her nonsense.  It's like dealing with a 6 year old.  But it's stressful to constantly be second guessing yourself if how you are dealing with the narcissist is making the problem better or worse.  I read the other day that withholding attention from a narcissist is like withholding drugs from an addict.  Eventually they flip out and it just gets worse for you.  Ugh!!

[WomanInterrupted]

You're absolutely right - it is like withholding drugs from an addict, but we *have* to do it for their own good.

In this case, we're doing it for OUR own good.   

The next time your dad interrogates you about what has you so busy, laugh it off with, "What are you, like, my parole officer!?"  or, "Sorry - that's classified" - and change the subject.

Or, if you dare, you might just come out and say, "Dad, it's none of your business, now stop or I'm hanging up." 

If you've got kids, a lot of this is going to be like when they were in their Terrible Twos and how you had to react when they misbehaved.  You didn't reward bad behavior.  You put them in time-outs.  And I'm sure there are other things  that are non-violent and non-abusive, but I don't have kids.

BUT we do have pets, and we had gone through Basic Obedience with our dogs, and I used *that* as my model in that dogs HATE to be ignored, and would prefer to be yelled at than ignored - which is why they sometimes eat  our slippers or shoes, or other items they shouldn't.  They're feeling anxious or *snubbed.*

If the dog eats the shoe, throw the shoe out and ignore the dog except to stare it down until it looks away.  Message received - you're the Top Dog and that was a bad thing.  You'll engage again on your terms, in the not too distant future (like 10 minutes or so).

Your mom wants to play phone games - fine.  Didi did that too, so I'd call LESS.  That's the *consequence* of trying to punish an adult - you call less. 

She gets snotty or pouty or nasty on the phone, almost immediately?  Fine.  "I'm hanging up now.  Goodbye." 

That's it.  Don't warn her, don't put up with it, don't deflect her -  HANG UP.   

That's the *consequence* of treating you badly - and also, add more time between calls.

At this rate, you'll probably be calling once a month within a few weeks - but she's *doing it to herself by not keeping a civil tongue in her head.*

Another thing you can do is *block* them for a certain amount of time, so they go to your voicemail folder - especially if your father has been nasty and invasive, and your mother has been pouty and nasty.

YOU get to determine when you unblock them - or IF you want to unblock them, because you're enjoying the peace and quiet so much.

And personally, I wouldn't listen to any voicemails that come in when they're blocked, because you *know* what they're going to say.  Just delete them.  You won't miss much.   

They have NO control in this relationship  other than to use angry words and treat the phone like an electronic collar and leash - and you have ALL the power. 

You can make it stop, on a temporary or permanent basis, with just the push of a few buttons. 

That's *power* and they can't stop you. 

In child rearing and dog training, we reward *good behavior* - which can work with your mom, too.

If she's *civil* - you listen, but the minute she stops, "I'm  hanging up." 

I never got to use that one with Didi, because she'd beat me to the punch when I didn't show any interest in her medical problems. 

I never hung up on her - she always hung up on me, which was her way of "punishing" me and "winning" at the same time. 

But...the Queen who could never condescend to call started calling OFTEN when I got to the 2.5 week mark between calls - 2 weeks was her "silent treatment period."  It never varied - but I *evolved* and didn't care.

I didn't have an Iphone then, so I'd screen my calls on the answering machine - more often than not, she'd hang up without leaving a message, like I'm just supposed to know who it was by picking it out of the ether.   

If she did leave a message, I'd call her back at MY leisure - and if she called again before I decided I could stomach it, I'd add even MORE time for annoying the living shit out of me over nothing.

If your parents do call, let it go to voice if you don't feel like dealing with it, and call back ONLY when you feel like you can mentally handle it.   

If that's never - well, that's on them.   

You've GOT this, Sidney!   

Just let yourself be brave enough - and annoyed enough - to say, "This is ridiculous and I hate it.  I hate being grilled by both of them, I hate how they treat me, and I'm going to make it stop." - BLOCK!

You'll thank yourself later.   

[illogical]

... But it's stressful to constantly be second guessing yourself if how you are dealing with the narcissist is making the problem better or worse.  I read the other day that withholding attention from a narcissist is like withholding drugs from an addict.  Eventually they flip out and it just gets worse for you.  Ugh!!

I would stick to my boundaries.  You have indicated you are not ready to go No Contact, so keep your boundaries in place.  Continue to repeat the "I've been busy" line ad infinitum.   If your mother won't accept that, too bad.  Yes, she is likely going to escalate from this point.  When she figures out that the Silent Treatment isn't getting her what she wants (100% compliance) she will try another tactic. 

I completely understand your frustration and stress over having your boundaries constantly trampled.  My NM refused to compromise one iota with me-- it was 100% compliance or the highway.  So yep, it was the highway.  After about a year and a half of her disrespecting every boundary I laid down, I was ready for No Contact. 

It sounds from what you've posted she's sending your dad out to try to pump you for information that she knows you won't give her, or to punish you with more PA comments.  He's acting like a flying monkey for her at this point.  I would give him the "I'm busy and gotta go now" line whenever he started in with the PA stuff. 

The only way to keep your mother at bay and stall for time to sort things out is to refuse to give her what she wants-- a hostile reaction from you.  Don't let her see you sweat, so to speak.  Remain calm, no matter what she says, and end the conversation when she starts in with the put-downs and criticism.  Respond, but don't react. 

You are trying to shift the spotlight off your mother and she doesn't like it.  It's like you are engaged in a theatrical performance.  She wants to be the star and she wants you to be the villain.  Only you have resigned that role.  She will have to get someone else.  I think you are doing great!   

[Sidney37]

Thanks all.  I guess this is what is expected to happen if I keep up my boundaries.  She's mad and giving me her version of modified silent treatment.  I call every 2-3 days.  Her new behavior us that now she usually makes my father answer the phone.  He talks to me as nice as can be, and she spouts off the occasional snide remark in the background about whatever we were talking about.  If she does answer the phone, she sits in near silence.  I ask her how she is - FINE.  What she's been up to? - NOTHING. What did you do today? - NOTHING.  How was your_____ activity? - FINE.  Who was there? - silence.  Then she huffs and puffs and puts my dad on the phone.  If he isn't there, she sits in complete silence.  I say, "well I guess you don't have anything to say.  I guess we can talk later" and she hangs up without even saying goodbye. 

The question is, do I decrease calls as a natural reaction/consequence to her saying next to nothing when I call? According to my dad, she is mad about the decrease in phone calls and giving me the silent treatment because she saw on social media that my child was wearing a brace after a minor sports injury, and I didn't call her before a photo of her wearing the brace was posted to tell her about it.  I now have them blocked for future posts, but my child doesn't want to, so this furry over us not calling to tell them what we post before we post it will continue.  It has been made clear in the past that nothing should be posted without telling her first because she doesn't check social media every day.  She does not want to be told that anyone at my home has done anything by someone other than me.  It embarrasses her that a mutual acquaintance knows something about me before she knows it.  Do I need to block every mutual acquaintance we have?  If I block her and not her friends, then they tell her that they saw something that she was blocked from seeing, it will cause WW3!