Apologies

[LifeIsWorthLiving]

This is just something I have been thinking about for a few days. I saw a Tedx Talk by Jocko Willink where he talked about Extreme Ownership. He said owning up to your mistakes, especially when you are in charge, is key to being a good leader. I sort of think that applies to life in general. I am working on owning everything I do, both good and bad. I feel like that is one of the biggest problems with my PD parents. They have never taken responsibility for anything they have done. Everything is always someone else's fault.

Here are a few scenarios I've encountered with apologies.
1. Both myself and the PD have done something wrong, ie, unkind words in an argument, etc. I apologize for the specific things I did wrong. the PD either a) responds as if I am a horrible person because an apology is an admission I am bad, or b) the PD also apologizes, but in a vague way, so you don't know what they are actually sorry for or if it is just that they are sorry you wronged them so much.

2. PD (in my case my NPD father) behaves terribly. I never get an apology. He just acts like whatever happened never actually happened or he revises history and claims that anything I say is a vicious lie. If I can prove that he did something wrong then suddenly he exaggerates how bad he is and accuses me of bullying him.

3. PD behaves terribly, but in a very sneaky and deceitful way. I confront her. She completely loses her cool and goes bananas, screaming and acting like a crazy person (this is my mother's typical MO). After that, the original wrong is tiny in comparison to her reaction. The original wrong is forgotten by everyone and she makes up some reason why I am evil for making her go bananas.

4. I do something wrong. I apologize. It sucks, but is necessary. a) the person I wronged has a healthy personality. He/she accepts my apology and moves on. b) the person I wronged has a personality disorder. He/she files this apology away for a rainy day when they can bring it up and use it so show how much I suck as a person.

5. Finally, the tendency to apologize for the faults of others. I think this is a boundaries thing, and I know that for years I was always saying sorry for other people's behavior when I was not responsible for them.

Thoughts?

[clara]

One thing I found with NPDs, Life, is they qualify all of their apologies on the rare occasions they give them.  They always have a good reason for behaving as they do but are willing to apologize if they find some advantage in doing so.  They never come out and say what they did was wrong or indefensible but rather it's always the result of someone doing something to them, i.e. causing them to act the way they did and are therefore not really responsible for their actions (they were "made to" act like they did).  Since they won't own up to their mistakes, they're never capable of true change.  Instead, they either expect you to change in order to suit them, or they make insincere but socially acceptable changes.  But the motive is never because they feel an apology is due.  They may do it to please you, or to make themselves look good, but it's false.

I no longer  expect a PD to apologize, and if they do, I'm skeptical of it.  I wonder why they're apologizing and what they expect in return.  Because like you mention, they have a habit of filing such incidences away so they can be taken out later and used against you.  Or they use it like currency--by giving an apology on one occasion, it allows them to not give one on the next because they're only willing to spend out so many apologies.  Then it's your turn to spend some apologies on them!  It's almost to where it's better to just not expect anything from a PD. 

[Jade63]

This video excerpt (less than 3 mins) from Caroline Myss gives an example of how a real apology feels. I use this gut measurement every time I receive an apology to gauge its authenticity.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Sz4jJJE8HU

~Jade

[candy]

Thank you for sharing, Jade63! That's what a genuine apology should look like.

LifeIsWorthLiving, I like the idea of owning everything you do.
Concerning the tendency to apologize for others' mistakes I'd say that goes back to how you were shaped during childhood. Did you have to clean up your F's messes? Apologize for him? Were you the caretaker?

I once had a lightbulb moment at work. A mentor told me to stop apologizing for others' faults all the time. That had been my tendency as well. I didn't even recognize it. That mentor basically said I shouldn't take the blame nor the fall for crimes I didn't commit.

It was easier for me to alter my behavior at the workplace than it would have been within close relationships or within FOO. When I stopped apologizing people still respected me, what a surprise at the time 

I often think of this moment whenever conflicts with my PDs arise: how would I react if this was my workplace? Would I tolerate a certain behavior / insult from an acquaintance or workmate? Is that really my stuff, my ,,crime"?

[LifeIsWorthLiving]

Thanks Jade! That video really does drive it home.

Also, Candy, learning how to interact so I am not constantly apologizing has been huge. I said "sorry" during a pretty importing presentation at work and my boss took me aside and kindly, but sternly told me I needed to figure out how to stop doing that. It's a difficult habit to stop.

[athene1399]

I was told my a mentor to stop apologizing for my feelings and that's there's nothing wrong with having feelings. I wasn't allowed to have sad feelings for so long that I apologize for having them. I had to pretend to be happy all the time. So I've been working on allowing my feelings to happen (and not using them as an excuse for my behavior. But I learned that a while ago).

But with PDs I feel they only apologize if it suits them. Like they can use it as a weapon later or if they can over-apologize and play the victim. Like "I'm so sorry I'm not perfect like you...". Or they don't say sorry and blow up to cause a smoke screen so no one will notice what they did in the first place. Usually the blow up ends in calling you the bully. Making you feel like you did the wrong and not them.

[Wilderhearts]

3. PD behaves terribly, but in a very sneaky and deceitful way. I confront her. She completely loses her cool and goes bananas, screaming and acting like a crazy person (this is my mother's typical MO). After that, the original wrong is tiny in comparison to her reaction. The original wrong is forgotten by everyone and she makes up some reason why I am evil for making her go bananas.

I've had this #3 happen with a pwPD - it eventually became subject of "conversation" in a later outburst/rage.  She couldn't convince me she had done nothing wrong, and she knew it, so she shouted "I'M SORRY."  Apologies that make you  cringe aren't apologies.

Later she tried to trap me into apologizing for something I had done that, in and of itself, wasn't wrong.  But she claimed it hurt her, and since I had been talking about accountability, she figured she could use that against me and either a) make me admit to a wrongdoing or b) get a chance to call me a hypocrite.  Well, I apologized for the impact my behaviour had had - not the behaviour itself.  She raged and sneered at me, telling me "I'd rather have no apology than such an insincere apology."  I do think it was sincere - because even if I thought a behaviour wasn't "wrong" I wouldn't behave that way towards her again if she said it was hurtful to her.  But I wasn't devastated by the accusation and pleading for forgiveness so she had to tear me down a little more 

This experience tells me a few things about pwPDs and apologies:
1.  Similar to what Life said, PwPDs see apologies as an opportunity to kick someone when they're down, reject their apology/them, and disparage them even further.  If she views her response as  a "normal" response to an apology, no wonder she never apologizes!

1. Both myself and the PD have done something wrong, ie, unkind words in an argument, etc. I apologize for the specific things I did wrong. the PD either a) responds as if I am a horrible person because an apology is an admission I am bad, or b) the PD also apologizes, but in a vague way, so you don't know what they are actually sorry for or if it is just that they are sorry you wronged them so much.

2.  There are HUGE double standards around apologies with PDs.  Although she was enraged that I wouldn't admit my behaviour itself was wrong, she also refused to do the same when her behaviour itself was clearly unacceptable (such as physical intimidation).  It was only the "circumstances" that made it unacceptable, i.e. she's not responsible for her behaviour being wrong. 

4. I do something wrong. I apologize. It sucks, but is necessary. a) the person I wronged has a healthy personality. He/she accepts my apology and moves on. b) the person I wronged has a personality disorder. He/she files this apology away for a rainy day when they can bring it up and use it so show how much I suck as a person.

This raises a question for me - are we morally obligated to apologize to pwPDs?  For me, the purpose of an apology is to repair a relationship and hold ourselves accountable.  With pwPDs, apologies seem to just cause more disrepair to the relationship, because its an invitation for an attack.  Also, being the conscientious folks we are, we can just recognize when we've done wrong and resolve to do better, rather than giving them an opportunity to have power over us?

[LemonLime]

Thank you to all of you who have posted on this topic.  Every single one of your posts hits home for me, and it's therapeutic to read them.

One of the most difficult aspects of having an uBPD sibling for me has been around apologies.   I am at a point in my life of really understanding the accountability thing.  As in, I need to be accountable for myself.   For myself, and not for others.   Boundaries in my home growing up were not good.   There was no physical or sexual or emotional abuse, but there was a lots of  blaming.  And shame.   I've finally learned at midlife that blame and responsibility/accountability are not really the same thing.  We can take accountability for our actions and words without feeling shame about ourselves as a person.  Somehow I got the message growing up that apologizing meant admitting I was a bad person.   So not surprisingly, I avoided apologizing at all costs for a long, long time   ( I had all kinds of techniques for making things Not My Fault).    I'm sure my sis picked up the same damaging message.

So my parents were not perfect and they did the best they could with what they had at the time.   Now that I'm a parent, I cringe to think of the many, many parenting mistakes I have made.  Luckily I married a man who is very good at apologizing and taking accountability for himself, and he is also good at not apologizing for things that are not caused by him.   In other words, the man has great boundaries!!       As he has said, and many great mentors have said, "taking accountability sets you free".   It may be counterintuitive at first, but I think we all have experienced that to be true.   I have learned a lot since my childhood.  And I've forgiven my parents for not being perfect.

What's most difficult with my uBPD sibling is exactly what you all have been writing about.    I am afraid to apologize for ANYTHING with her, because the sense I get is that she would be very happy for me to admit that I AM A MONSTER who has been nefariously planning to hurt her at all turns.  That I am the most inconsiderate, hateful and evil person who ever walked the face of the Earth.   I suppose that way, she can stop feeling any shame for her rages.   Because, well, who could blame her for raging when provoked by an Evil Person?  Nobody could blame her.   So it would be a way for her to absolve herself of her deep shame.
I'm just guessing at her subconcious motivations here.

Weird thing is, in terms of the immediate family who she has raged at.....we don't want her to feel shame.  We love her.  We see millions of wonderful qualities in her (she is a very high-functioning BPD).  We tell her that we appreciate her.   Apparently she cannot let that in, due to her disorder.   We do want (and insist) that she stop raging at us.

So, since being angry with herself is too scary, and there has to be a villain in the story, it must be US who are the villains.  Right?  Uh, OK.......
It's just apparently not in her realm of possibilities that people make mistakes, and that they can apologize and be forgiven, and that they can do their best to change their behavior, and that we can all move forward with this thing called Life, resplendant with it's trials and tribulations.   All of us just trying to survive and thrive the best that we can.   It isn't easy, given the challenges the world is facing today IMO, to remain present and hopeful.    It's as if we in her FOO have all matured and realized we can be wrong and not bad, but she has never made that connection for herself.

All that is to say that I find myself avoiding apologizing to her, for fear of being anhiliated.     Just as you all have aptly pointed out.   I am afraid that anything a say can and will be held against me, forever.   Even an apology.   I know that this should not prevent me from apologizing.  But it does.   I mostly don't want to apologize for things she feels I did that I don't feel I did.   Things that I feel she imagined, and that she is making into a personal attack against her.   As you have all said, these people are not trustworthy to take the apology and move on.  They  may hoarde it to use later.   I do apologize for obvious mistakes and miscalculations that I make.   I apologize for those loud and clear.  Accidentally miscalculating the bill, forgetting to pick up something at the store, etc.  That's easy.   It's the more emotional/personal/nebulous things that are more difficult.

The reason that this bugs me is that I want to be true to myself and I want to be proud of myself.  I want to do Right Action.   I just don't want to be pulled into quicksand.   And quicksand is what I feel like I'm in when I'm around her.

Thanks for your help, you guys.

I understand that this is all part of their disease and I truly feel for them.  Perhaps it's easier for me to have compassion for my sisters because I suspect she does not have diagnosable BPD.  She simply has some BPD traits.  And she's high functioning.   Unfortunately as this whole thing continues, I see more and more that our relationship is unlikely to ever be repaired.   Because I am seeing these horrible trends, this inability to take accountability.   She actually cannot do it I think, as she feels she will cease to exist.   It's so sad for her, and for her FOO.   She is truly delusional.

[athene1399]

It can be very frustrating to have a family member with a disorder. It is great though that you are making progress with apologies and learning that we can only control ourselves. And that you have forgiven your parents. I feel that helps in letting go of some of it. You stop carrying it around with you if you choose forgiveness. I read an article once that forgiveness can be difficult because sometimes we feel we are letting the other "off the hook" if we forgive them. I've learned to treat everything as a learning experience and using trauma as a way to grow. Bad things happen. We can let them fester and infect us, or choose to forgive, grow, and move forward.

I used to be blamed for things that weren't my fault, so now I over-apologize. I've been working on that by being accountable for only things that are my fault and not things that no one controls. It's like we have to un-program ourselves from our childhoods. The more I trace back why I am the way I am, I am able to change my knee-jerk reactions. And I feel so much better for it.

Thank you for your insightful post, Kat!