What will you make lose hope ?

[kiwi2]

Starting to feel like a broken record almost,was here a while ago writing about my pds sister and her abscence from me the latest 16 years,my fathers inclusion of triangulating and pitting us up against each other. https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=76259.msg676591#msg676591. Now one year and a couple of months later i answered her first sign of life against me for 16 years,a letter,mostly a defence one til 98 percent for my overt narcisisst dad its complete silence again.Surprise,surprise. Zero,zilch reactions .

And there we are my father and i at the dinner table a while ago and i see how  the mobilephone is ringing and naturally the mobilewindow shows it s my sister. He slowly takes way the phone,then a couple of minutes goes to the toilet and,i guess phone her up. Some months later he sends away an sms to me by mistake. He is old now in his 70s and his absentmindness is growing.The sms is about my father tipping  my sister about a film for my sisters son. He says absolutely nothing about sending the sms wrong afterwards to me. Complete silence.Which is also is the case with my 2 year old sisterson who i ve been letting out of knowing of his existence and that even has been put onto this earth. Complete silence. Again. That is sick a friend of mine remarked when i told her for instance. Fast forward a bit later to this and my mom bails out in a telephone sms to my sister asking her why won t you see your brother ? My sister just answers her in deaf silence and have shut her out since then. The silent treatment and gaslightning rolled into one delightful package.

Throughout these 16 years some kind of alternative substory and reality almost has been created in a spooky way which really if you look upon it closely really has no ground at all. That all of this has roots in my sisters lack of mistrust for me and she lacking the ability and want to communicate with me. Meanwhile,the the clock is ticking, and life is going on outside. Time doesnt care about these things. I have sleeping problems,psd disorder,am unemployed and slowly losing my autonomy for every day that goes by. I am slowly beginning to realize that this co - dependent werewolfdance will go on forever until the grave if i don t do something about it. Like someone wisely put it here once on the forum ;"You re just rehearsing for a conversation in your head that you never will have with these people". So why am i having it and what will you make lose hope i ask myself ? What will you make you see what parts you can t change and cannot ? Some little input from you guys would be nice.

[goodgirl]

Hey, Kiwi--

I am so sorry for what you've gone through and continue to endure. Others will no doubt be here with better advice than mine. But I did want to share my perspective, and it comes from a slightly different direction than many folks'.

In (very) short, my NBro was miserable to me most of my life. We did have good times, and I was often tricked into thinking "this time, we're going to have a normal, loving, adult sibling relationship--yay!"... only it never worked out that way. My mother was always an apologist for his bad behavior--"You're two different people, that's just brothers and sisters, I'm sure you were both at fault," bla bla bla.

It wasn't till I was in my thirties, physically distant from them all and confident to finally break the rules and talk to friends outside the family that I got my first validation that, no, I was not at fault, I was not crazy, and my Nbro's behavior was "WTH"!  Fast-forward to meeting my future husband and his joining the family at holidays, and I got FULL validation of "OMG what is wrong with him? He is selfish and cruel and do you want me to punch him?" (No punching, FYI.)

And here is where I feel different than a lot of us here: This news didn't break me heart; this news felt liberating. Especially when I learned about Narcissism,  the pain and guilt of years of being told "you're just sensitive," "he didn't mean it," "he really loves you," "this is just how siblings are" was just washed clean and it was such a relief. For me, for all my life, I felt like I was forced to maintain a relationship with this person that I did not love OR like anymore, just to make things nice for everyone else.

I still have a relationship with him because of our mother, but it is extremely limited, and (in a kind way) I have explained to Mom why he and I are never going to be close (including a few details), but that in no way do I want that to interfere with HER relationship with her son. She's 90, so I've had to remind her of this a few times. And when she has passed, I will be relieved to no longer have him in my life.

So this is my long-winded way of asking you (and others): I respect and feel horrible for the grief you experience with your lost relationships. But my question is: if these relationships cause you so much pain, why do you continue to pursue them so desperately? This is not meant to sound critical, I promise--It's just I felt huge relief when therapy and healthy friends made me realize I was not required to keep that kind of damaging person in my life. On the other hand, when my dad died recently and I saw my brother and SIL for the first time in 6 years, he was so freaking charming and funny, I remembered how easy it would to be sucked back in. I literally had to remind my husband to remind me how Nbro could not be trusted. Luckily (?), Nbro quickly returned to his old shenanigans, but I had wisely not let down my guard, so it was okay mostly.

[kiwi2]

Thanks for your answer Goodgirl,refreshing with your perspective and take on it. I know what you mean in a way,why do you/we keep pursuing these relationsships,marinating yourself in pain ?! ha,and showing up at these forums,a bit of comic relief there, well,thats one way of seeing it,i think, in my case its a very complex thing and includes many layers. Seems that you got lucky,got out,met your husband and both learned about narcissism and were able to see it clearer from the side before things got too out of hand.Maybe parts of you werent that injured ? Myself i have treated me to therapy all these years,tried to put myself in new situations,bringing in new people and try to slowly change my self image and confidence. It has partly worked i think,it has been an almost 10 - 15 year workplan with tons of therapy making me lose some shillings. But i haven t totally gotten to reap the benefits of it. Why ? I am to close to these people,haven t gotten out with perhaps the right kind of job and the right partner and new enviroment. Then finding myself in this codependent werefoldance as i wrote where i am drawn to abusive and charming people. And of course it isnt that simple as i wrote in my story.Its not only my sister and father. My mother is a bit of a covert narcissist and registers a bit on the munchausen scale. My fathers and sisters behaviour is quite easy to spot. My mother isn t. A therapist once said a thing that turned things round for me ;maybe your father wasn t a very good husband,and in a way person.but a good parent ? And about my mum,a very good person,and in the marriage,but not a very good parent ? That turned things around for me you could say. I think the things we can t see is the things that hurt us.The quiet,unknown grief has to be located and dealt with too. On the other hand one lovely week abroad last summer and for some days i were rebuild again suddenly.Getting out the wormhole would be an answer. Some thrown out thoughts there.

[Oscen]

Dear Kiwi, I think I am in a similar situation to you, I want to move on and be healthy but it's very hard to break free from family. I've pretty much cut them loose physically - I live on the opposite side of the world and have barely any contact - but psychologically, I am not free and like you, I'm constantly mentally rehearsing conversations with them all. It's not good for me, but I'm struggling to stop. It's so hard to let go of family. Any other relationship can be replaced - friends, colleagues, lovers - but you only get one mother, father, and the sisters you grew up with. Our society tells us that good people are close to their family; it doesn't really make allowances for the fact that many families are harmful and toxic.

Like Goodgirl said, finding out about NPD has been very helpful, but I guess I need more time and healing before I can break free entirely.
I went to a narcissistic abuse support group about a month ago and it was amazing - the validation I got from the fact that everyone there knew exactly what I was talking about and no-one doubted me or made me explain myself was astonishing. If you can go to something like this, it might help. I never had any idea how supportive it would be.
After about a week (and an email from my M) I slipped back into feeling unconfident and arguing in my head, but I hope posting on the forum and going again will keep me moving forward. If it's two steps forward, one step back, then I'll eventually get there.

[kiwi2]

Thanks for your answer Oscen,

yes its like you say that even if we live in more open minded times now with more choices and information technology,society still plays along with  the notion that the family should be hold up as something sacred even if  things like this happens like for us in this forum. You get cast out on a lonely search,and as someone aptly put it here in answer in a thread,a refugee of sorts. And even if you find you re way out and try to replace it with your family of choice you can still replay the patterns and find similar people. That is my experience.It may take time. But replacing it with an alternative,with friends,a network,or a partner my be the only thing. I havent suceeded in finding it yet though. I actually been to several selfhelpgroups with people growing up in dysfunctional families and it kinda helped for a while. Maybe not narcissistic abuse,see if i can find something like that here.maybe it help a little. I might feel that my way out of this is by "feeling" my way out of it a bit more though. I v e had all the therapy in the world and is quite skilled that way

[kiwi2]

One thing though that makes it harder is that i can t get into my head the motives and how these people think ? Its so beyond me. My father is 73 slowly getting to the end of his life,have had two grandchildren,my sister and half brother, and you would think its enough now,wouldn t you want it to stop now?life is hard as it is,why do you want pain enrupture and continue ? But propably there is a payoff of the narc and npd seeing things getting destroyed in front of you and sliencing their own inner chaos and self hatred of with people around you getting teared down. In a way it feels that my father all these years have spoken through my sister,he have had the perfect weapon,his aggresivness and emotional 5 year old speak thorugh her. He has triangulated her so much that he won t ever held accountable of the situation

[goodgirl]

I think the narc literally knows no other way. I've often wondered this with my brother: he does and says things sometimes that hurt others and literally cannot benefit himself, may even hurt himself. And why? I just don't know.

I did not  begin to come out from under the N yoke until my 40s, and part of that was meeting my spouse and also accidentally discovering the language/symptoms of narcissism on an eldercare forum I had joined (my dad had suffered a debilitating stroke). Also, I am comparatively lucky in that, while my Nbro beat me down emotionally all my life and my parents didn't really protect me from that, my parents DID conversely support me in all other ways, telling me I could do anything I wanted, boosting my self-esteem, etc. That, I think, is what has saved me all these years (that and treatment for debilitating depression as needed).

[kiwi2]

Maybe its futile to understand them,in a way you can t. I m 45 now,still havent got an answer to why i am treated this way,i only get tiny pieces and crumbs and that is largely from an effort done by me and an intensive work of therapy,going to self help groups,reading literature,going on forums like this etc. My sisters only explanation on why she has done this to me for nearly sixteen years now came in the form of an explosive gaslightning,projection,lie rolled into one meaning;
"Well, you ve been feeling bad(that is not well)i haven t been able to stand that"
Thats all i get after 16 years of intense pain and grief. She doesn t need more than that to ward it off.

[guitarman]

I've come to understand that my uBPD/uNPD sister has no insight into her abusive behaviour and how she makes other people feel. However sometimes I think she knows exactly what she is doing.

I've learnt that she projects all her fears onto me and other family members. What she says about me is what she is feeling about herself. It sort of makes sense now. She blames others for all her mistakes.

Whatever happens I stay calm and don't feed her narcissistic supply. I use Grey Rock and Medium Chill techniques to detach myself. It can be very difficult not to react to her extreme behaviour. She presses all my buttons for a reaction, any reaction. Hopefully she'll find someone else to be her target of abuse, I pity them.

I really don't want to see her ever again. I've had enough. I care but can't cope. I say to myself that she is just someone that I used to know. We just happen to share similar genes. I owe her nothing. I am not responsible for her.

I have too much sympathy for her but she is an abuser. I need to look after me first.

I consider myself to be a kind, loving, generous person. I've learnt not to do "idiot compassion". It's a Buddhist term.

Best wishes

guitarman X

[kiwi2]

Thanks for that Guitarman,

Yes,what they say about us is how they feel about themselves,thats what it is. Like you i think my sister partly knows exactly what she is doing. You can of course say thats its the npd syndrome,narcissist etc etc and analyse until eternity but the question is what that does for yourself and you getting out of the victim role. 

I guess somewhere in the back of my mind is that little girl,my little sister who once was something else,whom i loved,had fun with,a link to the child i once was,something more playful and innocent,and who gave me hope for the future amidst the inferno in the familyhome. Now i am alone. Something happened along the way,she got taken,destroyed on the journey or something else. I got out. In a way although damaged. I guess i ve clinged on a bit to long to that inner picture to long of whom my sister used to be,time to bury it in a way and look the grim reality in the way.

[LemonLime]

Thank you all for your posts, they're helpful to me.
I think I have a uBP sister who is similar to yours, kiwi and guitarman.
I've tried to understand what drives her rages.   The only thing I can come up with is this:   I have had moments in my life when I have felt alone and scared for whatever reason, and gotten a little paranoid (usually about a friend or romantic relationship) and had some pretty delusional thoughts cross my mind.  Most of the time I had enough restraint to not voice what I was thinking, thank goodness.  One time comes to mind when I was in grad school, very stressed out, and my boyfriend had just broken up with me.   I was really devastated, and we were stuck seeing each other in school every day.   I saw him sitting with a female classmate, speaking intimately with her.  I felt like just yelling at him, something about "moving on already, huh?" or something else dumb.   Found out later the woman's dad had just been diagnosed with brain cancer and he was comforting her.  Oh my gosh, I couldn't believe how stupid I was.   Just crazy.   I think that these thoughts and feeling are what go through the BP head all the time.... but they don't get perspective, they aren't just having a "moment".   It's their life.   And that's why I feel a lot of empathy for my sister, as that feeling seriously sucks.    But I also, as I have told her, will not be belittled.   So here we are, at a standstill.   It sucks in a major way, because I have had some of the best times of my life with my big sister, and now I don't know if I can ever have that back.  As my mom said, she feels like one of her daughters is dead.

[kiwi2]

So what you re meaning Kat is that they,your sister,and people with pds are caught in these situations and constantly act out of their disorder and can t have the perspective and analyze it like the rest of us,who also in a way had a bit of damage ? That thats what makes it impossible to reach out and resolve it with our siblings ?

[goodgirl]

I think sometimes looking for understanding of their behavior is going down a dangerous rabbit hole. I say this because from everything I've read about NPD, there's really no revelation you can make to CHANGE their behavior. And you may set yourself up for all sorts of hurt by trying to empathize with or help your sister change back into the loving sibling you remember.

What you CAN do, and what I have found useful, is to learn as much about this condition as possible for several reasons: you will find that Ns are freakishly alike in so many ways, and that understanding their behaviors (if not the reasoning behind it) can make them extremely predictable. And if you can predict how your N will behave in a particular instance, you can also prepare how best to deal with it and regain some control over your interactions.

Also, and this is very important if you want to maintain a relationship, you can better come to understand the limits of what that relationship will be and thus temper your expectations. Before my parents were beset by serious illnesses, I had learned enough about NPD to approach my Nbro in a different way: I stopped having any expectations that we would ever have a genuine loving adult relationship. Instead, I taught myself to have no positive expectations of him, but to enjoy the good times with him (when he chose to allow them) for what they were--just discreet enjoyable times that didn't predict future good times. That worked for me quite well until my parents got sick and suddenly needed huge support.

[kiwi2]

I think you may be right that its quite a journey down the rabbithole Goodgirl if you re trying to understand the npds,i think if you re treated to this as a child and growing up in the family the way to cope with it and to make comprenhension with it,well i speak for myself now at least,is to know as much and be as well read. A therapist once told me that my way of coping with the abandonement feelings you feel as a child while treated to this behaviour was to be an overthinker and well read person to avoid that there were no emotional understanding. You put yourself on an island with well eqipped smarts to avoid the pain. But really maybe there is nothing to "understand" you either are met with your emotional needs or not. And to "understand" a person like my sister risks you of putting yourself in a position of permanent goodness,you are not allowed to discover your own shadows and darker sides,you become black and white,bordeline in your own way.

[guitarman]

My uBPD/uNPD sister has changed. She's never going to be like she used to be. I've got to accept that. I used to cling to the hope that she would change, now I don't think that she ever will. I've been waiting for decades hoping that she will change. I sometimes see glimpses of her calm self. Usually when she has some money but it never lasts long.

I think she is full of fear, feels scared and threatened. It's how I try and understand her reactions and extreme behaviour. She takes a long time to self soothe after a crisis.

Also I've learnt that she projects all her fears and worries onto others. She won't accept that she is the one who is the cause of her own problems. She has to have someone else to blame then they can become the reason why her life is so bad. It's never her. They become her targets of abuse.

I've had to walk away from her when she's been in a crisis to protect myself. That is the cognitive dissonance I have to cope with. Wanting to be a kind, caring, helpful person but having to leave her in distress as I have to look after myself first. Then she accuses me of being unsympathetic and not being empathetic and being cruel. I do not have to be abused. No one should.

guitarman X

[kiwi2]

Sounds like a wise move to keep away from her guitarman. Projection seems to be the root of it all. My sisters inclination to ward it all of with me "have been feeling bad"is more about herself and her inability to interact with me. But it works seemingly for her,she have maanged to stay away from me now for 17 years without any conversation. The last coversation we had was before midsummer 2002,i still remember how traumatic it was,seeing someone who you grew with suddenly in a dr jekyll,mr hyde way had transformed into something else,gaslighting and projecting everything towards me. I was lost for two weeks after that. Then after that it has been just sporadical meeting through the years without any conversation,perhaps one or two half friendly meetings before 2005,but then more like the feeling of talking to an unknown stranger in a lift then a sibling. So in a way i really don t know how she is today like with yours. I keep that little girl from way back preserved somewhere inside of me as a picture of my sister,she is propably like yours,vastly different today,maybe to time for a full confrontational meeting with her to erase her and keep the cognitive dissonance at bay.

[kiwi2]

So i took courage to me,its easter,a holiday,the most playful of them all which kind of evokes the child in me,and phoned up my sister. Our last call were perhaps in 2010. What happens ? Well she just wards me off with that she is working,which in a way could be true,but acts jus as ice cold as usual and says that she just don t have the time but don t meet me in any way at all. I shake now in my body. Just the kind of reaction i,in a way,expected. I naturally sent off an sms to her that i now expect that she will call me later when she gets home from work. I don t expect it. Thats reality.Right in your eye. Theres no way around or it or possiblity to hide from it

[Oscen]

Hi Kiwi, sorry you're feeling shaken after reaching out to your sister. At least you can know in your heart you've tried, if that helps?

Sending you hugs, if that's ok with you.

[kiwi2]

Thanks Oscen for the hugs  much needed. Well i reached out,lets see,she answered back later said she should write me back later.To be continued as they say