Mediation?

[Whiteheron]

Is there anyone out there who would recommend trying mediation with a PD?

I was at my L's office today going through documents when she popped in and said that she had just heard from stbx's L and he had brought up the subject of mediation, with a specific mediator in mind (a former judge). She asked if I wanted to try and basically told me that if I didn't we would be going to trial, but that it was up to me.

I told her that stbx doesn't negotiate with anyone and that when he "negotiates" at work he's out for blood. I asked if we would be in the same room together and she said yes. I asked if L's would be present and she said no, that it would be the two of us + mediator. I told her that he was someone who was able to use and manipulate me for 20 years, I really didn't want to be in a room with him. She said I really didn't want his L present - that his L would just complicate matters, etc.

I know stbx's L is doing this right before our court date, early next week, just to look good for the judge. His L is saying that I'm demanding too much - I want 50% of the assets yet won't give him 50% custody...but my L knows I will settle for much less just to get him out of my life, but stbx doesn't know that. So maybe stbx will leave custody alone if I 'settle' for a lesser % of the assets? So he can feel like he's won?

And yes, I notice stbx is focused on 'fair' and 'even' - nothing to do with the kids or what's best for them.

Has anyone out there had success? Failures? I need to give my L an answer before court. Any advice would be appreciated.

[Associate of Daniel]

In Australia the courts expect people to go through the mediation process before applying for court.

That way, if agreement is reached, court orders can be drawn up by the solicitors, signed by the parties and sent to the court for their rubber stamp.  The parties wouldn't set foot in a court room and many $1000s saved.

However, that probably only works where pds are not involved.

I would suggest you try mediation nonetheless, to show the court you are trying to be reasonable and co operative.

You should be able to do a shuttle mediation - where you'd be in a seperate room from the pd and the mediator goes to and fro between the rooms.

Regarding the settlement, work out your bottom line first.  What is the least you are prepared to accept? 70/30 custody and 30% assets? (For eg) 

Don't reveal your bottom line to the pd or his solicitor.

Then ask for a lot more, knowing they won't accept it. Negotiate for a bit less, a bit less etc until if necessary you reach that bottom line.

That way, the pd feels they have "won" and you've come out with what you "wanted".

Hope that makes sense.

Hopefully the mediation process works and you can avoud the stress and $1000s of court.

Bottom line is what's best for the kids. Having a stress free mum in a peaceful home is the goal.

Mediation is awful, awful, awful. But is probably the least stressful and least expensive way to get things sorted.

Often too, the pd shows his/her true colours in mediation so, even if an agreement isn't reached, you may have a mediator's report of the pd's behaviour to show to the court, which would work in your favour.

All the best.  Please keep us posted.

AOD

[notrightinthehead]

In addition to the excellent advice above, if you decide to do it, I would read through the toolbox again and really, really stick to the strategies, medium chill,  JADE, and focussing on your breathing every time you feel anxious or upset. Remain calm and polite throughout the whole session and rage into a cushion and cry afterwards.

[openskyblue]

Is there anyone out there who would recommend trying mediation with a PD?

I was at my L's office today going through documents when she popped in and said that she had just heard from stbx's L and he had brought up the subject of mediation, with a specific mediator in mind (a former judge). She asked if I wanted to try and basically told me that if I didn't we would be going to trial, but that it was up to me.

IMHO going through mediation with a PD is a useless waste of money. My exhusband also insisted on mediation and was an aggressive non-negotiator. We spent a full day in mediation, he agreed to terms, then later refused to sign the mediation terms. Thousands of dollars down the drain.

It sounds like your exhusband is throwing up any roadblock he can to avoid getting in front of a judge. If that's where he doesn't want to be, my recommendation is to put him there. Many a divorce settlement was hammered out on the courthouse steps — including mine. 

[findjoy81]

I agree that mediation tends to be a waste of money, however, it is not a lot of money so it can be worth it.  I would really ask if there's a way for the 2 of you to be in different rooms (if I ever go to mediation with my ex again, that will be what I ask for). 
Just don't ever give in more than your lowest bottom line.  And if something is worked out in mediation, know that until the final paperwork is signed, your ex can (and may) try to renegotiate. 

My experience was we went to mediation.  It was contentious and uncomfortable.  We walked out with an agreement.  Then a few weeks later, he decided he "gave up too much" and I didn't compromise enough and wanted it to go to trial.  So we went to trial anyway.

We went to mediation another time and it did not go well, he was just there because he "had to" before he went to court. 

[openskyblue]

 

Will chime in here and say that you do NOT have to be in the same room in mediation. The mediator can go back and forth between rooms, and that is pretty much standard practice.

Also, there have been some recent threads about mediation by another Out of the FOG member that might be useful to you. I think you can find it in Separating and Divorcing.

[Whiteheron]

Thanks everyone. I know deep down it's a bad idea. A small part of me is saying "what if..." as in what if he's tired of playing games and truly wants to negotiate. But I know that's not the case. It goes against who he is. I'm not sure if it was his L's idea or his. Either way, I am 99% sure it's not going to work. He wouldn't even sign the temporary custody agreement that had been decided on - the judge had to read it into the record.

He's adamant about proving me wrong about a few things - he's got to set the record straight (it's a pathological need of his), the only way to publicly do that (and humiliate me) is deposition and trial.

But...if I decline mediation, his L can say to the judge "whiteheron refuses to be a cooperative co-parent, etc, etc, etc" "whiteheron is wasting the court's valuable time by refusing to enter mediation with my client...he only wants to put this behind him..." 'whiteheron is the problem" boo hoo hoo.

IDK. I might do it, but enter in with a time limit ($$$) and with zero hopes of reaching a resolution. Just to say I tried.

[hhaw]

Rule number 1.... don't put off trial dates bc mediation is set. 

Assume mediation will fail, and continue preparing for trial is my advice.

IF you do try mediation, have that list of bottom line items handy, as others have mentioned.

Go INTO THE MEETING WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT ANY AGREEMENT WILL BE HAND WRITTEN, and signed before the meeting is over.  You'll want to avoid upsetting the mediator, so have your attorney explain it, perhaps?

If you can avoid sitting with the stbx, do so.   They scatter our brains, make it difficult to focus, and inspire anxiety.  You need to be at the top of your game, just in case you can settle this thing.

I've never heard of mediation without attorneys, but it'll be a whole lot cheaper.  I wish it was an option for me when I went through it.

Good luck,

[turtlemama]

Hi Whiteheron,

My experience with mediation, was actually AFTER the trial (3 years after divorce started).  exuNPD filed an appeal and the appeals court mandated we go through mediation.  It was awful.  My lawyer and mediator basically told me that if we didn't come to an agreement that exuNPD would drag the court case out possible indefinitely and I would just waste more money (that I didn't have at that point). 

We were in separate rooms and lawyers were present.  We did come to an agreement (I took much less than I was awarded at trial), but I would still have legal custody (he had regular visitation).  The first day we didn't finish, so a second day was scheduled, but I couldn't take off any more work, so the lawyers met and called us every so often.  I was so pressured into it, and crying at work, I probably would have agreed to anything.  I initially agreed to exuNPD having more time with DS, but later changed my mind.  I was made out to be the villian and wasting attorney fees.  My attorney said it was too late, but I hadn't signed anything.

I fired back saying that my attorney and mediator coerced me into the agreement, and that he wasn't sticking up for my best interests.  In the end I accepted even less money, and my exuNPD had the original amount of parenting time awarded at the trial.  Yeah.. giving up time with your child for a few bucks.     Father of the year.

[Whiteheron]

Thank you all for your replies. I expressed my concerns to my L before court and she asked if I would be ok if L's were present, just not allowed to say anything. I told her that would be ok. My main concern is how it will look to a judge if I refuse. My L told me it's worth a shot, and that it was just mediation. The judge won't hear about it, unless an agreement is reached, and that if I'm not happy with the way it's going, I can at least say I tried.

Not surprisingly, stbx's L is pushing for a certain mediator. Refused to consider an accredited well known mediator and instead wants to use an ex-judge who does side work for my L's firm. Which is weird. My L assumes there's a personal tie there, but that in the end it really doesn't matter. Neither of us expect any resolution to come out of this.

I have spoken to a few friends about this, one of them a lawyer who knows both me and stbx. After she rolled her eyes at the thought of stbx in mediation, she told me her impression is that there is definitely a personal tie and that stbx's L might also be trying to get stbx to listen to someone else (since he apparently won't listen to his own L's advice). My friend tells me this can be a common tactic when an L doesn't have control over a difficult client - for which stbx would qualify in spades. My friend is under the impression that stbx's L is thinking that if stbx hears the same thing from both his L and the mediator, that maybe he'll settle down and agree to end this mess. If this is the plan, he obviously doesn't know stbx at all.

So we will go ahead with mediation. I won't get my hopes up.

Trial is scheduled for late fall, with a different judge.

[hhaw]

Just remember.... Judges talk.  They talk in front of clerks, and deputies, and to each other, and as comforting as it is to envision opposing counsel utilizing a particular retired senior judge as mediator in order to help control their difficult client, I have some apprehension over that relationship. 

It would be unfortunate if this Judge said things TO THE REAL JUDGE that colored the way the Judge sees you, and the PD, IME.  Hopefully, your attorney knows opposing counsel isn't evil incarnate, and willing to lie, cheat and steal to win, and/or destroy you on their PD client's behalf, which happens. 

I haven't seen it all, but I've seen enough to know that whispers, and stories can have an impact on a trial Judge, and that really sucks if it's behind closed doors, nothing you can see, or dispute, or disprove, kwim?

You see positives, and you hope it works in your favor. 

I used to do that.

On the other hand,  and there's always another hand, I 'd count on the fact you're case will be well documented.  I count on the fact your stbx will be difficult, or impossible to work with.  I count on the fact everyone in the room will be aware your stbx is unstable, and this will have everyone in the room positively yearning to GET THIS CASE SETTLED AND OFF THEIR PLATES.

I find people hate hate hate to deal with irrational PDs, particularly where children are involved. 

That typically means everyone in the room, whether they're aware of it or not, will begin leaning on the only rational litigant in the room TO END THEIR OWN SUFFERING.  They'll start leaning on you to give more, bc they know the PD won't. 

I'm sorry you're paying your attorney by the hour, but hopeful a deal can be struck, hand written, and signed at that meeting, then filed, and stamped before the day ends. 

Given that you feel the Judge will be working to pressure stbx into being reasonable, I suppose it's possible.

Remember to have your attorney state the goal up front.... an Agreement should be hand written, signed and filed that day, if a deal is struck.

No one should go back to their office, and "craft" the Agreement, bc it likely won't get signed.   You're there to get a deal wittent out, and signed... not to agree then let that agreement go out the door unsigned.  You're the genuine article.  You want to settle this, and you're there to get the job done.  That's not typical, but it sends a message. 

The Judge should always always SEE you as reasonable, eager to settle, and as your children's biggest advocate... that is your position in this.  Always putting the kids first.  Always appearing reasonable, never snarky.  Always working toward co parenting in the children's best interests, and certainly willing to help "dad" be the best darned dad he can be.

You are still water.  You are never snarky, or critical of the court officers..... always treating the stupid things they say as opportunities to educate.... you are serenity, and consistent stable parent to kids you base your bottom line decisions on.... always refer back to the children, their safety, their mental health, their best interests.

The Judge will refer to the children's best interests, likely often, but they will likely not mean it, or care in the least about that..... don't take it personally.   You're always eager and willing to help them understand, and be better people than they usually are every day...... it's likely the PD will storm out of the meeting, or agree to something they don't mean, THEN storm out when asked to sign that Agreement.

I don't know why most PDs are pathologically unable to agree to ANYTHING, but that's typically how it goes, IME.

Sometimes it feels like they're unable to do anything other than TAKE, and RIP things from us, against our will, and that's the only way they feel justice can be served in their opinion.  They'll spend 10 times the money to get half of what they'd get in a settlement, IME.   They want to take things, from us, against our will, and it makes no sense when we share children, and finances, but there it is. 

Be overtly helpful.  Never get cross, never be condescending.  Never stoop to the PD's level.  Always remember you're the stable, zen good enough parent, and you'll do your very best to support the PD in being the best parent he can be also. 

It would be nice if this mediator reported the truth, bc you were calm enough for the truth to be apparent.   

The PD is counting on making you look unstable, unreasonable, and hysterical....... that's not going to happen. 

You have this.

Good luck, and do go cancelling that court date.

[Liftedfog]

You need an impartial mediator.  Don't go with what the other side is suggesting.  They know each other and that is not fair to you.    I'm still in mediation. I've spent $20,000 on that alone and nothing.  You can't negotiate with a terrorist.   I'm sorry that it becomes the lesser of two evils.   Trial is even more expensive and you have no control of the outcome.   

[hhaw]

*Don't go canceling the court date!

[noregrets]

Whiteheron, sorry for the late reply but I just wanted to give you my experience.  My NPD/BPD husband and I failed mediation about a year and a half ago. We still aren't divorced, just living apart.  We both voluntarily went into mediation because we have a complicated financial situation, owning multiple businesses together. The mediator told us that if we went to court without a settlement agreement,  that a judge or jury could just order us to sell all the businesses and split the proceeds, and that would be detrimental to both of us and our children.
We met with the mediator a couple of times to discuss our objectives before the actual mediation day. Being in business with my husband and knowing him well, I told both of them that I did not want to see a proposal from him that was difficult to understand or too complicated. That it needed to be simple enough that I didn't have to analyze it closely to understand the ultimate result.   On the day of mediation, the mediator asked both of us if we wanted to do it in the room together or to be in separate rooms with him going back-and-forth between us. I had never thought of that question or discussed it with my attorney, so when my husband said he wanted to be in separate rooms, I just agreed. Long story short, the mediator brought me the initial proposal from my husband that contained about 30 separate bullet points, that would require months of analyzing finances and cash flow to understand.  The mediator, who was also a financial planner and had been doing mediation for 30 years, said he didn't understand some of the items.  I should mention that I have an MBA, and have been the financial officer for our companies for 20 years, so I'm not intimidated by financial matters. His proposal was just convoluted to the point of ridiculousness.   So that basically ended the mediation at that point. We left, and on the drive home, my husband called me, yelling and saying that the mediator told him that I was completely unreasonable and that I was asking for too much and that no judge or jury would ever give me what I was asking for. So, I drove to my attorney's office in tears and we called the mediator, whom she has worked with before.  He seemed stunned by what I told him and said that it had obviously been a mistake to do the negotiations without us all in the same room.

The thing is, I think my husband really thought his proposal was simple and reasonable,  and I think he really thought he had the support of the mediator. Bottom line, I have never read anywhere that mediation with a PD works. We wasted $4000 on it.  But here we are, 3 years after separating, no closer to arriving at a settlement.  So I don't know what the answer is either.  Luckily, our kids are grown, so I don't have custody or child support issues. Every time I beat myself up a little bit for staying as long as I did, I think that at least I didn't have to deal with him and child custody. Best of luck.

[openskyblue]

 

After 4 years on this board, I can't remember a time when mediation resulted in a settlement, certainly not one involving child custody.

[noregrets]

openskyblue, our mediator said that he had only had mediation fail a few times in his career.  I bet we can all guess what was the common denominator in those failures.