Going from VVLC to VLC / LC

[Peace Lily]

After 18 months without seeing my parents and doing lots of work on me, I have asked them if they'd like to meet?  I have been going round and round almost doing it, but then finding a reason not to.  The reason I have decided to go ahead is that they are ageing at at some point they will be an emergency, and I have asked myself, what will I do then? Would I be there for them? I see myself as a kind person and I don't think I could just ignore it and carry on.  So.. it would be easier to do this from a point of LC.

My NM waited over 24 hours to reply and then saying that she had been suffering from a long illness and the doc said it would be at least another 2 weeks before she was ready to meet up.  I don't know if she is ill or not. I have tried to be medium chill about it and simply replied that I was sorry she was ill and hoped she'd be feeling better soon. And to let me know when she was well enough of course.  I don't know if she really  is ill, or if she is just a bit ill or has been very ill as she says.  She and illness have a very dysfunctional relationship. I feel guilty for not believing her.

I feel sadness generally and ever so slightly anxious about the meeting which may now happen in the next month at HER CHOOSING not mine. Or may not happen. I fear the anxiety will grow. Hopefully the healing I have done will stand me in good stead, I do feel less triggered by emails from my NM these days and that's definitely progress.

Has anyone else successfully upped their level of contact? and if so, how did you prepare for it?  Any tips? How do you protect your guilt buttons? I have arranged a neutral place half way between our houses and will take my partner. They have agreed to the venue, although I did not tell them yet I wasn't going alone.

[practical]

I increased contact and failed - most likely not what you wanted to hear    . The last time I visited F I literally studied the Toolbox here and looked at some stuff in the Glossary as well as reread "Will I ever be good enough?" by Karyl McBride and dipping into "Boundaries" by Cloud & Townsend. Mind you, I actually stayed with F for over a week. The preparation helped a lot! I would have an exit plan, in case your M makes a scene, guilt trips you to the Nth degree. Why do you need to tell them about your partner coming? Do they know you have a partner? In that I case I usually assume people come with their partner except if they state explicitly otherwise, especially in a family setting.

The reason I have decided to go ahead is that they are ageing at at some point they will be an emergency, and I have asked myself, what will I do then? Would I be there for them? I see myself as a kind person and I don't think I could just ignore it and carry on.  So.. it would be easier to do this from a point of LC.

This is why I stayed in contact with F and decided to "just deal" with the injuries he caused me. There is a point where you also might want to think about being kind to yourself, and that might be being VVVLC rather than LC. It is amazing how much can be achieved without being directly involved with a PDparent, WomanInterrupted is an example for it. And then there is the realization that we are replaceable, I was and others here have found out the same when they no longer played the assigned role of PDsupply.

Whatever you do, please don't forget about your own needs, you are part of the equation, your parents needs don't overrule yours.

[practical]

I forgot to mention, increasing contact worked for some time. There was best behavior displayed, but as there was no true understanding of what the issues were that had led me to lower contact, despite me explaining them, there also was no genuine change. The best behavior peeled off like a bad coat of paint over time and we were back to where we came from.

It might be worthwhile for you to read this stickies post: https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=68854.0

[Peace Lily]

Thank you for taking the time out from your day to answer my post Practical. I really appreciate it.

What you said happened in your case is what I fear may happen in mine.  There is a certain amount of hoovering /best behaviour already going on through emails.  for example, my mother will start off "My DEAREST Peace Lily" and signs off with how much she misses me and "love you so" - she has never addressed me in this way before, and tbh it gives me the creeps. I cannot be sure how she will greet me, but I think it will be hoovering in the beginning and this is what I fear most in some ways as it is hard to maintain strong boundaries when someone is being nice; I may start feeling as if I have been too harsh and cruel over these past months. In other words the FOG may return!   

I think having an exit plan is a good idea. I have been in a situation before, after a 7 year bout of silent treatment from NM, in which she made repetetive, nasty cruel comments every time we met - but this was a continuation of the punishment.  It is different this time, as she is trying to win me back, whereas before, I was trying to be forgiven!

Yes, they know my partner very well - we have been together almost 30 years.  However, back when this all blew up, and the mask slipped, I found out what my Mother really thought of my partner and FOC generally and it wasn't nice. It appears she hates him and is very jealous of my FOC as I spend more time with them than with my own parents.  My partner was blamed in advance for not allowing her into our house (before I went NC /LC). i.e. she assumed this would happen.

So... I suspect that they won't want him there and that if I said he was coming, they may say they would only come if I went on my own.  This is what I did the last time I saw them when they wanted to "clear the air", but it was horrendous and it took me a very long time to get over it. Don't want to go back there. Don't feel 2 against one is fair!

My parents (NM and en Dad), are both flummoxed as to why I have taken so much time away to get over "it" as they do not know what "it" is, although I wrote them a detailed letter explaining.  So like you, I fear that nothing will have changed... except me.  I have new skills thanks to counselling, reading and thanks to all the posters at Out of the FOG.

Thank you for the link.  This all looks very helpful and may indeed also help with the ILs also as they are both in their 90s now. It is not an easy time, but at least they are not as crazy as my lot!

[practical]

I cannot be sure how she will greet me, but I think it will be hoovering in the beginning and this is what I fear most in some ways as it is hard to maintain strong boundaries when someone is being nice; I may start feeling as if I have been too harsh and cruel over these past months. In other words the FOG may return!   

What helps me in such moments is to read old posts I wrote here. It brings my right back to reality and Out of the FOG 

Yes, they know my partner very well - we have been together almost 30 years.  However, back when this all blew up, and the mask slipped, I found out what my Mother really thought of my partner and FOC generally and it wasn't nice. It appears she hates him and is very jealous of my FOC as I spend more time with them than with my own parents.  My partner was blamed in advance for not allowing her into our house (before I went NC /LC). i.e. she assumed this would happen.

So... I suspect that they won't want him there and that if I said he was coming, they may say they would only come if I went on my own.  This is what I did the last time I saw them when they wanted to "clear the air", but it was horrendous and it took me a very long time to get over it. Don't want to go back there. Don't feel 2 against one is fair!

If they request you come without your partner, that would be a deal breaker for me. Either they accept the people you love, treat them with respect or this is a non-starter. I think it is a fairly safe bet that if they cannot treat your partner with respect than they won't treat you with respect either. Such a request would also indicate to me that they haven't changed because it would mean they haven't reflected about how they treated somebody you love.

My parents (NM and en Dad), are both flummoxed as to why I have taken so much time away to get over "it" as they do not know what "it" is, although I wrote them a detailed letter explaining.  So like you, I fear that nothing will have changed... except me.  I have new skills thanks to counselling, reading and thanks to all the posters at Out of the FOG.

This sounds familiar, I was hypersensitive was one explanation  . Really any explanation would have done as long as it shifted responsibility away from my parents.

Definitely would have an exit plan and also think about beforehand what your minimum standard is for how you want to be treated, how they can treat your partner. When things happen in the moment it is hard to keep everything in perspective, so having some ideas beforehand helps.

Good luck!

[moglow]

Hello Peace Lily! Many of us have been where you are and unfortunately the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Mine has always reverted to what she knows, what she's comfortable with - as have I. The difference for us is, she's not learned from the past.  My tolerance for and the entertainment value of mother's performances are way down from where it was most of my life. I shut down much sooner now, remove myself when necessary.

Think about what you want from this meeting, the reason you want to see her. It may be best (easier for you) if you go in without expectations and with an open mind. I like the idea of having an exit plan, or even possibly a time limit. And meet on neutral territory if you can - don't have her to yours and don't go to hers.

The main thing is to listen to yourself, those kinder inner voices. Just because you agree to see her doesn't mean you have to drag it out into serious discomfort. Don't make yourself stay if you're feeling attacked and treated badly. You can excuse yourself at any time, no one can make you stay.

Practical mentioned something else I really like - read back over your previous posts and/or journals. See the relationship for what it really was, and accept it as such. Try to not harm yourself by holding onto dreams of what might have been - work towards acceptance of what IS, whether you're with her or not.

[Peace Lily]

Thanks again Practical. Your advice seems very sound and if or when my parents get in touch, I will re-read this thread and definitely prepare myself in terms of what treatment I won't accept for me and my partner too.  I will also read old posts, my journal and remember what they did to my sister the scapegoat
as it is more obvious to me that their relationship is dysfunctional. Their treatment of her was outrageous, whereas their treatment of me is more manipulative and neglectful.

I don't think I'll have a problem with thinking they have changed as I am 99% certain that isn't going to happen. Even if they did I would never trust them again as this abuse has gone on for 6 decades interspersed with long more "pleasant" interludes of hoovering \ me towing the line. If they're nice, I'll know it's the latter! My worry is more about , because of the hoovering, thinking I've exaggerated \ gone over the top \ am cruel because they are elderly.

Thanks for your reply Moglow. You are quite right, my mother doesn't know how else to behave, and after 80 plus years it would be difficult for her to come Out of the FOG. She did fairly recently refer to our family as ". Our dysfunctional family"!!!! But... I think she thinks we are the crazy ones! She also inferred she'd had counselling, but she obviously didn't act on any insight she got about herself. No, she will never be any different. My choice therefore is deal with her or go no contact. My sister has chosen the latter - has been totally NC for 15 years and LC since she left home.

It is encouraging to hear your mother's "performances" have diminished. The credit goes to you Moglow, for setting your boundaries, and I hope to be strong like you.

Preparation is key, and yes the exit plan is important. Remembering our last meeting which was full of manipulation and emotional blackmail and ended with my NM crying and pleading with me not to leave her as if I were her lover!!! I said I would never leave her  why did I say that? Because I was taken by surprise, don't want to hurt her and hadn't got an exit plan from what was bound to be a difficult meeting! This time, no promises I can't keep! This was all in a public place btw!

Thanks again and I'll update the thread of there are any developments. The ball is in their court. I am waiting for M to be feeling up to it, but the good news I have low anxiety levels at present!

[treesgrowslowly]

The anxiety.

I could never up the contact because all the emotions amd feelings you included in your posts here, those are emotions that I have to work so hard to process. Any and all contact with PD parents creates anxiety. Instantly.

PDs cannot change unless they want to and even if they want to change they would need to go into very good therapy for months if not years.

If PDs could change you can bet you'd see people talk more about it here.

As adult chidren of PDs, our hearts are broken by the PD we tried to love.

If there was a cure or treatment, we'd have parents... for the first time in our lives.

If I let the PD parents back in, all I would get is hurt. Confused and hurt.

[StayWithMe]

I'm going to visit my mother for a week next week.  We've been VVLC for a couple of years.  I don't initiate calls and I take a long time to answer hers.  We would be NC if it weren't for her efforts.

I have been thinking of what pitfalls I might encounter:

1. Self-disclosure:  I learned the hard way that anything I say is dressed up and fed back to me as negative material.  So I've learned to say "fine" for every question that attempts to get me to disclose something.

2. We are going to stay at a friend's house for 3 days.  My mother has this habit of thinking that she can offer out my cleaning services, saying very loudly, I ought to help clean up.  That seems to have died down as the last couple of times my father tried it, I pretended not to hear him.   If that doesn't work for my mother, I'm going to say "This is not your house.  And the hostess will not like that you're bullying one her guests."

You should identify what might be danger areas when dealing with your parents and roleplay in your mind how you will handle it.

[Peace Lily]

Hello, I'm back here again.

My N mum contacted me about a week ago to organise a time and date for the meeting. She's accepted my suggested venue and has not insisted I come alone after I started to use "we" in my correspondance. Initially I felt huge anxiety that the meeting was going to happen ( was hoping for a silent "treat" !). Also sent a father's day card in the meantime and my enDad respond ed that he's really looking forward to seeing me.

Well, I am not looking forwards to seeing them. That's the honest truth. But I am going, in spite of the fact that I believe every word of Treesgrowslowly's post. Everyone here advises not to talk about your life, and my own sister says it'll be easy if I just let her talk.... But this "talking" (monologuing - she is the QUEEN of monologuing!) doesn't just do my head in... to me it's abusive. It is totally invalidating as it not only shows zero interest in me, it is also disrespectful when she talks over me, my opinions are  treated as worthless and anyone I mention is most often criticised and my relationship with them devalued as I should not have anything to do with them in her opinion.

So the monologuing, that I vowed to set a boundary over is also my way of prot ecting myself? Another no win situation.

Reading over my first posts haven't helped much as I myself feel it all seems a bit trivial now I'm further down the line. I think I was holding back in these posts, as how I felt does not come over, and I did not post the detaiils of what happened. I have got copies of all the email Exchanges though, so I'll re read them.

I have also been rereading some articles I shared in Threads on here about detachment. They are REALLY helpful, and so I am going to re-read them. I am also going to picture myself holding my inner child's  hand in the cafe where we will meet and she will sit at another table with a colouring book whilst I ,"the adult" , have a banal conversation with my parents for a maximum of an hour (if they behave well towads me).

"You should identify what might be danger areas when dealing with your parents and roleplay in your mind how you will handle it"

Staywithme, thank you for this piece of advice. I am going to use it to prepare.

If I can find my journal, I'll re-read that too (to prevent hoovering attempts having any effect. I know that I did express my pain there in private.

I also need to keep the perverse side of me in check who wants DH to see in person, just how nasty they can be!! The success of the meeting should be measured by how calm I feel in their presence and the LACK of abusive behaviour from anybody! (and not by what extent it validatez my own lack of contact over the last 18 month

I'm going to visit my mother for a week next week.  We've been VVLC for a couple of years.  I don't initiate calls and I take a long time to answer hers. 

Staymwithme a whole week!!? And I am worrying over an hour. i hope the advice on this thread helps you too. Sending you hugs as you face this ordeal. I found this helpful, so 're sharing.

https://hellogiggles.com/lifestyle/detaching-with-love/
Thank you all for your support, I'll be back to let you know how it went. So she me luck 

[SunnyMeadow]

I appreciate that link Peace Lily! Years ago, I started detaching from my uNPDmom and it felt good. My mom noticed and didn't like it but oh well. 

Occasionally I read over old email exchanges between my uNPDm and I and I'm shocked that I let her get away with the crap she pulled. When I'd be internally preparing for a meeting with my mom and dad, going through the checklist of what to say and not say, it left me wondering what I'm getting out of these meetings. I guess a way to visit more like my mother kept harping about, but it didn't do anything for me. I sat watching the clock tick away and plotted my escape from the endless talking about herself. Not fun. I haven't had to do it in months and it's a wonderful thing. No more stress, I decided I don't want relationships that cause stress and anxiety. Communicating with her was causing me health issues and for what?? 

Sounds like you're getting prepared as best you can. I hope the visit goes well and your dad jumps in more so you don't have to listen to your mom rattle on! Good luck.

[Kiki81]

In answer to your question, after a 2-year NC I resumed the relationship with my Narents. I'm good now, I can handle them , etc etc.

It lasted 4 months of their escalating insanity followed by an epic rage blowout and now I'm permanent NC, 5 years at this point.

[Peace Lily]

Just quickly, here is the other article on detachment that I am finding helpful; just in case someone else reading is needing support with a similar issue.

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~eap/library/developingdetachment.docx

[illogical]

That's a very comprehensive article on detachment.  Reminds me of the AA 12-steps.

My main takeaway is that you can't change others, only yourself.  To believe that others in the PD realm have changed and cling to the frail hope you might have a real relationship with them is futile.   So why set yourself up for failure by meeting with them?  What is the point of getting together?  To validate that they haven't changed?  Or to subject yourself to abuse one more time?

[Peace Lily]

Thanks Ilogical. You prompted me to remind myself why am doing this. I am maintaining it is all about ME. I feel I cannot quite move on without seeing them, but I have no intention of raising contact to previous levels. This was already low but involved staying over night in reach other's houses. I also am under no illusions that they will change, not at their age or based on years of previous behaviour. I mean to deal better with that behaviour if and when I encounter it tomorrow.

The second reason I have decided to go ahead is because of my own values. I am kind and compassionate and see the tragedy of my parent's lives (their lack of awareness means they will never turn it around). There are positives that they have given me in the past, not just abuse. I hope to be able to look out for them in their old age from a safe distance and without stating that is what I am doing. I feel this would be me acting true to my values and HOPEFULLY not in FOG.

I also hope to be able to attend their funerals. (Not wish I wish them dead  ), but this would be for ME to grieve. I fear that NC might mean I would not even get to hear of their passing.

Thanks for reading if you got this far! I am really trying to get my head in the right place ready for tomorrow. My anxiety levels are still pretty low, so that's a positive sign.

[illogical]

...The second reason I have decided to go ahead is because of my own values. I am kind and compassionate and see the tragedy of my parent's lives (their lack of awareness means they will never turn it around). There are positives that they have given me in the past, not just abuse. I hope to be able to look out for them in their old age from a safe distance and without stating that is what I am doing. I feel this would be me acting true to my values and HOPEFULLY not in FOG.

That is a tall order.  I wish you well in your endeavour to participate in the caregiving of your parents from afar. 

It is highly likely your parents will be on their best behavior for this meeting.  My humble advice is to hold tight to your boundaries and keep expectations very low.  Personally, I've experienced the "give an inch they take a mile" so many times I would be very wary of the outcome, as this meeting may truly open Pandora's box. 

Good luck, and keep us posted on how it goes.  We are here for you!

[Peace Lily]

Update

DH and I went to the venue but got a phone call from N mum  5 mins before the meeting time to say they were stuck in terrible traffic jam and had decided to turn back. I do believe this. The meeting will now happen at another time. I can take positives from this in that I managed to get there with relatively low anxiety levels. I was able to go about the things I had to do in the morning and although I felt very nervous I wasn't shaking or losing it which I had worried about. I put this down to the work I've done. Talking to my inner child and letting her know I'll look after her has helped and also visualising a bubble like firey boundary around myself lowered the feelings of anxiety when they came.

Although I'm not happy to have to go through the build up again, I do feel more confident about managing this meeting.

Thank you all for the great support, it's  meant a lot and I really appreciate it. Wishing you a peaceful PD free weekend!