Very odd experience

[SonofThunder]

Ive been married to my uPDw for 28 years.  I frequently see the traits of BPD and NPD in my wife but have learned to minimize their effect using the toolbox. Before my coming Out of the FOG, my wifes mother passed away from lung cancer and I believe her mom was a PD also.  My wife had a very difficult time dealing with her slightly older sister during her mom's 6 month ordeal which ended  in her mother passing away.

Jump 8 years later from that ordeal and now my uPDw's alcoholic father went suddenly into organ failure 3 months ago, because of long term alcohol overdose.  He was rushed to the ER and then intensive care for a week.  My wife, who has regularly assisted her aging father in retirement living found out VERY quickly during his ICU visit, that her legal power to assist her father had been covertly and expertly stripped away from her, by her sister, 6 months earlier during a time of travel that my wife and I took. 

Apparently, while we were away last August, my uPD sister-in-law convinced her alcoholic father that she was able to get him money in a certain way, but he had to 'sign a lot of of paperwork' and told him not to tell my wife because it would make my wife angry at HIM. He took the bait.  She had already prepared a new financial and medical power of attorney (poa) that was expertly crafted by a friend paralegal and the docs are 'bulletproof'.  So, at the front end of his ICU visit, my uPDw was 100% shut down by hospital staff and told her all communication must go through the poa. My wife was confused, powerless and angry. #control #npdcenterofattention

I feel her sister is a covertNPD and now that im Out of the FOG, i can see it clearly in so many events over the decades.  Fast forward 30 days from the ICU and his bills need to paid.  My wife goes to the bank to make sure all is in order for her to act on his behalf as financial poa (she had prior) and the bank shut her 100% down, stating a new financial poa was filed 6 months ago.  Beyond that, her sisters good friend at the bank has allowed the poa sister to have all her dads bank statements, online login and all communications directed away from him and 100% in the sisters control.  #NPDcontrol.  My wife is more powerless and angry.

Fast forward to 30 days ago and father is in a rehab facility 10 minutes from his us and his retirement living apartment and completes rehab and is ready to return home to his retirement living apartment with a full-time paid nurse (he cant walk any more and is 81).  POA sister denies the return-home request, cancels his rental contract on his apartment and sells his car (without his knowledge).  My wife goes over to visit him the next day and finds he has been moved to a new rehab unit 45 minutes away to the other side of town, 15 minutes from poa sister.  Staff at new rehab told that father is not to leave the building without the poa  and my uPDw can only visit. Its a 3hr round trip min visit with traffic.  My wife is further powerless and very angry #NPDcontrol. 

Other things that have happened/ongoing.

-all food/snacks my wife brings to rehab are thrown away by sister and replaced with sisters snacks. 

-father's cell phone goes 'missing' not to return.  Replaced with facility wired room phone only. Each time my wife calls he doesn't answer...she drives to visit and phone ringer is off (every time) and out of reach. 

-wife buys new blanket for father and upon arrival each time, blanket is stored in closet and sisters blanket on the bed. 

-father is declared to have 'sundowners' (afternoon/evening dimentia) making it impossible for him to reverse any legal matters (he is LIVID at his uNPD daughter for doing all this to him).  Unable to access his own bank accounts. 

-my wife speaks with an attorney on his behalf and days later, attorney bows out, stating all actions are 100% legal and that father has signed very detailed and thorough poa's and with dementia, he could not reverse but rather only have a 3rd party assigned as the poa and nobody wants that.  Sister very careful to have him cared for thoroughly by staff (no neglect) but strips my uPDw and her father powerless.

Ok...sorry for the long fact intro, but my uPDw has run into the brick wall of her covert-uNPD sister in this ordeal and it is CONSUMING my uPDw and now directing a lot of my uPDw's manipulation and PD-traits energy toward her sister.  But her uNPD sister is always 1 step ahead to make sure my wife's attempts to regain control and manipulate, fall flat.  Her sister has perfected her craft and my skillled uPDw has met her match. 

My uPDw has now turned to me for advice since it is mentally and physically affecting her severely.  My Out of the FOG toolbox training are now the perfect tools for my uPDw to protect herself, and without revealing Out of the FOG and my involvement, have taught the basic concepts of MC, noJADE, NC, and boundaries to my uPDw!       She is finding my advice VERY affective (because the tools work!) in protecting herself and her uNPDsister cant figure out why my wife suddenly disengaged.   The weird part is that my wife is still PD'g me and I use the same tools to protect myself.  But, my wife is oblivious to the fact that the very thing she has now learned and deployed is being used by me to protect myself from her!   Very odd experience indeed.

Any other folks here have a similar experience? 

SoT. 

[TriedTooHard]

I've seen this before.  Keep up the good work with how you're dealing with your wife.

It sounds like your sister in law is spending his assets while decreasing the quality of your father in law's living arrangements.  A lot of people like your sister in law will eventually try to get their parent on some form of public health care.  They are then shocked to learn about how easily their dealings can be audited and how they will be left financially responsible for their parent's care until that money is paid back.  If they try to neglect the parent, that opens up another can of worms for them. 

I'd say let it all happen, there doesn't seem too much you can do about it without stressing yourself out and spending lost of money fighting your sister in law.

[SonofThunder]

I've seen this before.  Keep up the good work with how you're dealing with your wife.

It sounds like your sister in law is spending his assets while decreasing the quality of your father in law's living arrangements.  A lot of people like your sister in law will eventually try to get their parent on some form of public health care.  They are then shocked to learn about how easily their dealings can be audited and how they will be left financially responsible for their parent's care until that money is paid back.  If they try to neglect the parent, that opens up another can of worms for them. 

I'd say let it all happen, there doesn't seem too much you can do about it without stressing yourself out and spending lost of money fighting your sister in law.

TriedTooHard,

I believe you are 100% correct there is nothing that can to be done at this time and stress reduction for my wife (and therefore myself) is the key.   Sister-in-law has a lot to lose if it is found that assets were used incorrectly or illegally, although the poa was written in detailed, yet broad language, giving her a wide berth before she crosses into illegal territory. 

We can surely see sisters efforts to minimize monies coming out if his accounts, by aligning him with all medicare facilities and denying him private funded healthcare, assuming she is trying to maximize inheritance for as long as possible (before medicare coverage ends with time) and her probably not counting/hoping on a long survival.  Father in law and my wife cannot currently access his own accounts to see what has transacted so far.  Luckily he and my wife knew what balances existed prior to his medical event, and we know what income he has monthly from SS and pension, so that at least gives my wife a good starting number to work with.  There is a prior Will but we are not sure if that was changed as well in the covert signatures episodes last August and he cannot recall what he signed, but knows he signed a lot and that he got in bed with the devil. He is 50% responsible because sister has a history of attempted manipulation of his finances when his wife died, but his greed and ignorance got taken advantage of while we were traveling.    As you said, time will tell. 

I will simply continue to advise my uPDw on dealing with her uPDsister while i continue my constant use of the toolbox for myself.  Thanks for the feedback!   Its very strange to teach toolbox concepts to a PD who has no clue they are being used my me to protect myself.   

SoT. 

[WomanInterrupted]

Hi Son of Thunder 

Please mention to your wife an unofficial saying many of us have taken to heart, when it comes to PDs:  Give them enough rope, and always hang themselves.   

I was running this by DH tonight, and we both think, if your wife doesn't want to just keep the popcorn popper on standby and wait for the fireworks to start, her best option is to call Medicaid and identify herself, identify her dad, identify her sister and say something close to, "I was my father's POA until (date), when my sister somehow obtained it on or about (date).  I want that to go on the record now, so I'm not implicated in any sort of wrongdoing once she files a Medicaid application."

First - your wife is being pro-active in defending her good name, and second, she's not TATTLING on her sister.  She does not want to become embroiled in any sort of financial chicanery   - and it sounds like there might be quite a lot of that going on.   

Your wife will be  proving she's got "clean hands"  - she did nothing wrong - and getting ahead of the train wreck that's probably coming.   

Medicaid usually always becomes involved when a patient goes into a nursing home or memory care unit, which can cost around $14,K a month.   Assets don't last nearly as long as people think, and they're either spent down (by paying the SNF, until there's no money left), or an eldercare attorney shelters assets, then does the Medicaid application as a part of  the package.

I think that's what SIL is up to - trying to get Medicaid to kick in, without proper legal guidance, and that will prove to her she's not nearly half as clever as she thinks she is.

Medicaid is a *nightmare* and a beast you don't want to tussle with, without a good eldercare  attorney  who *knows what they're actually doing.*   

Medicaid looks back five full years, from the date of the application,  and wants an accounting for ALL the money  coming in or being spent - especially if it totals over $1,000 and isn't allocated to bills, medical expenses, food, shelter - all things that are easily proven *through bank records.*

If your SIL is writing checks to herself as POA for "cash" or gas, food and errands - in Medicaid's eyes, those are GIFTS and they're going to add up.

If she'd just taking out cash, as POA - and can't prove it was spent on FIL's care and upkeep - gift.

*Anything* that can't be proven to have been spent on FIL's care or upkeep is a gift - and Medicaid will delay providing payment 1 month for every $1,000  of totaled "gift" - for FIVE YEARS.   

And yes - they will go through every single check and cash withdrawal,  every deposit, and every single financial transaction your FIL has ever made or had done on his behalf, for the last *five years.*

Every.  Single.  One.

I had an eldercare attorney represent unNPD Ray, on my behalf, and it was scary enough, trying to think of WHAT Ray could have spent that $2,536 on, when the check said "cash" in the memo - he bought a BED.  I got a *receipt*.  Problem solved! 

An eldercare attorney can also provide reasonable and logical explanations for all the blanks you can't fill in, or can only partially fill in, such as Ray's spending going down dramatically after unBPD Didi died - that was their *food budget.*  (She was a hoarder of all things, including food!) 

If you can't fill in all the blanks, your eldercare attorney can. 

Chances are, your SIL will *not* be able to adequately satisfy the folks at Medicaid  - and they'll have a *date* to refer to, thanks to your wife - of just when things  started to go REALLY wonky. 

Having done the Medicaid dance, I know how *serious* it is - even with a lawyer to represent you.   But with a lawyer, you go in with your i's dotted, t's crossed  and you're going to be okay - one and done, and not over and over and over and OVER again - or paying back accounts or facing *jail time* for obvious fraud.

Medicaid knows *everything* - your SIL may think she's being covert and sneaky but it's going to blow up in her face unless she can provide answers for *every single financial thing she's done since naming herself POA.*

I don't think it's going to go well for her and I wouldn't want to be your SIL. 

[SonofThunder]

Hi Son of Thunder 

Please mention to your wife an unofficial saying many of us have taken to heart, when it comes to PDs:  Give them enough rope, and always hang themselves.   

I was running this by DH tonight, and we both think, if your wife doesn't want to just keep the popcorn popper on standby and wait for the fireworks to start, her best option is to call Medicaid and identify herself, identify her dad, identify her sister and say something close to, "I was my father's POA until (date), when my sister somehow obtained it on or about (date).  I want that to go on the record now, so I'm not implicated in any sort of wrongdoing once she files a Medicaid application."

First - your wife is being pro-active in defending her good name, and second, she's not TATTLING on her sister.  She does not want to become embroiled in any sort of financial chicanery   - and it sounds like there might be quite a lot of that going on.   

Your wife will be  proving she's got "clean hands"  - she did nothing wrong - and getting ahead of the train wreck that's probably coming.   

Medicaid usually always becomes involved when a patient goes into a nursing home or memory care unit, which can cost around $14,K a month.   Assets don't last nearly as long as people think, and they're either spent down (by paying the SNF, until there's no money left), or an eldercare attorney shelters assets, then does the Medicaid application as a part of  the package.

I think that's what SIL is up to - trying to get Medicaid to kick in, without proper legal guidance, and that will prove to her she's not nearly half as clever as she thinks she is.

Medicaid is a *nightmare* and a beast you don't want to tussle with, without a good eldercare  attorney  who *knows what they're actually doing.*   

Medicaid looks back five full years, from the date of the application,  and wants an accounting for ALL the money  coming in or being spent - especially if it totals over $1,000 and isn't allocated to bills, medical expenses, food, shelter - all things that are easily proven *through bank records.*

If your SIL is writing checks to herself as POA for "cash" or gas, food and errands - in Medicaid's eyes, those are GIFTS and they're going to add up.

If she'd just taking out cash, as POA - and can't prove it was spent on FIL's care and upkeep - gift.

*Anything* that can't be proven to have been spent on FIL's care or upkeep is a gift - and Medicaid will delay providing payment 1 month for every $1,000  of totaled "gift" - for FIVE YEARS.   

And yes - they will go through every single check and cash withdrawal,  every deposit, and every single financial transaction your FIL has ever made or had done on his behalf, for the last *five years.*

Every.  Single.  One.

I had an eldercare attorney represent unNPD Ray, on my behalf, and it was scary enough, trying to think of WHAT Ray could have spent that $2,536 on, when the check said "cash" in the memo - he bought a BED.  I got a *receipt*.  Problem solved! 

An eldercare attorney can also provide reasonable and logical explanations for all the blanks you can't fill in, or can only partially fill in, such as Ray's spending going down dramatically after unBPD Didi died - that was their *food budget.*  (She was a hoarder of all things, including food!) 

If you can't fill in all the blanks, your eldercare attorney can. 

Chances are, your SIL will *not* be able to adequately satisfy the folks at Medicaid  - and they'll have a *date* to refer to, thanks to your wife - of just when things  started to go REALLY wonky. 

Having done the Medicaid dance, I know how *serious* it is - even with a lawyer to represent you.   But with a lawyer, you go in with your i's dotted, t's crossed  and you're going to be okay - one and done, and not over and over and over and OVER again - or paying back accounts or facing *jail time* for obvious fraud.

Medicaid knows *everything* - your SIL may think she's being covert and sneaky but it's going to blow up in her face unless she can provide answers for *every single financial thing she's done since naming herself POA.*

I don't think it's going to go well for her and I wouldn't want to be your SIL. 

WomanInterrupted,

Thank you SO much for sharing your knowledge and insight, and for your advice.   I am going to reread all you wrote and then look into what you discussed, in detail.  Yes surely i dont need my uPDw stressed any more than she already is and Medicaid sounds like a real bear to wrestle with.  Again, excellent advice and thank you for taking the time to write it out for me, and for your caring heart. 

SoT.

[goodgirl]

First of all, so sorry you are going through this.

Second of all, unless the SIL has had Dad declared legally incompetent and had herself made his legal guardian (which, as I understand it, is exceedingly difficult to do), what right does she or anyone else have to prevent Dad from viewing/making decisions regarding his own finances??  POA gives a person the right to act on behalf of another person, but it does NOT give them the right to act COUNTER to that person's wishes. My dad had Alzheimer's and I was his DPOA, but that didn't mean I could legally, for instance, have him committed to a nursing home or undergo treatment against his wishes.  Sundowners is a terrible symptom of dementia, but it is NOT a legal threshold the means the suffer relinquishes their autonomy.

IF you want to pursue anything any further, I would consult a different lawyer who specializes in eldercare issues. I could be wrong, of course, but everything I've read till now about DPOA and guardianship and competence says to me that SIL is banking on everyone not questioning her real authority here. And while the documents themselves may all be legal, there's a chance that they don't grant her the power that she and you believe they do.

[SonofThunder]

First of all, so sorry you are going through this.

Second of all, unless the SIL has had Dad declared legally incompetent and had herself made his legal guardian (which, as I understand it, is exceedingly difficult to do), what right does she or anyone else have to prevent Dad from viewing/making decisions regarding his own finances??  POA gives a person the right to act on behalf of another person, but it does NOT give them the right to act COUNTER to that person's wishes. My dad had Alzheimer's and I was his DPOA, but that didn't mean I could legally, for instance, have him committed to a nursing home or undergo treatment against his wishes.  Sundowners is a terrible symptom of dementia, but it is NOT a legal threshold the means the suffer relinquishes their autonomy.

IF you want to pursue anything any further, I would consult a different lawyer who specializes in eldercare issues. I could be wrong, of course, but everything I've read till now about DPOA and guardianship and competence says to me that SIL is banking on everyone not questioning her real authority here. And while the documents themselves may all be legal, there's a chance that they don't grant her the power that she and you believe they do.

Thank you for your feedback goodgirl,

The poa document that was drawn up, included extra paragraphs, added to the form pertaining to his desire to assign her as his 'guardian'.  Your advice of separate legal council is good, and thank you, but everyone (chosen doctors who are friends of sil, rehab/nursing home staff,  on-site counselors and legal) are all in sil's side regarding his need to remain where he is/has been and his mental state.  Sil is very well connected in these professional circles and has chosen specific people and a specific facility to accomplish her goals (whatever they may be).

For the sake of my wife's sanity and anxiety (which in turn helps protect me as best possible), i have been able to convince my wife that at this time, with his growing immobility and declining mental condition (which in my opinion happens quicker to those that enter these type facilities), that he is not being physically neglected, but rather, denied his wishes (under the diagnosis of dementia), which is imho wrong and mentally abusive. 

We are not certain if any legal actions/declarations were taken, either at the time of his long icu stay or shortly after, to have sil officially declared 'guardian' because he was on a respirator and heavy drugs for a very long time and she is 100% covert about all things and well prepared.  Like i said, sil and her husband are very well connected in both medical and legal circles. 

Again thanks for the advice, but i am thankful at this time, being kept so much in the dark by everyone, that my uPDw has been simply reduced to visitation.   That may prove, eventually, to be a really good thing, so my wife stays clear of being implicated by sil in participation of his medical and financial situation.

Again, the very odd experience for me, as it relates to PD, has been consulting my wife on the basic techniques found here on Out of the FOG toolbox (without disclosing terms and/or other Out of the FOG giveaways), and at the same time, using those tools to protect myself from her.  It amazes me she does not see the connection but at the same time, shes so self focused that im not surprised either... 

SoT

[Penny Lane]

Again, the very odd experience for me, as it relates to PD, has been consulting my wife on the basic techniques found here on Out of the FOG toolbox (without disclosing terms and/or other Out of the FOG giveaways), and at the same time, using those tools to protect myself from her.  It amazes me she does not see the connection but at the same time, shes so self focused that im not surprised either... 

SoT

I hear you! The lack of self awareness can be amazing.

At one point my DH's ex wife was sued by her then-boyfriend's ex. The ex (we life in a small town, this all got back around to me), is EXTREMELY similar to BM, as it turns out. The whole thing got very ugly with both of them accusing the other of what they were in fact doing. BM (who has been the villain in pretty much every other story in my life) was actually the slightly more reasonable one, or at least it seemed from the outside.

So this whole time BM was telling my now-H that this other woman was jealous, that she wasn't behaving rationally, that the lawsuit wasn't founded in reality - basically BM was describing all the behaviors she exhibits toward me. She even later tried to bring me into her litigation with DH in a very similar way.

And yet ... she has no idea that she was basically at war with a carbon copy of herself. It was like watching a cat look in the mirror and try to attack the "other cat." It's almost like cognitive dissonance to see the total disconnect from seeing the behaviors in others vs seeing the behaviors in herself.

is right, that's for sure.

[Psuedonym]

Hey SonofThunder,

To add to what goodgirl said, when my BPD M was in respite care and refusing to go to assisted living, I looked into the incompetence thing. I was told by AL that unless you go to court and the court declares someone incompetent which is a lengthy and difficult process, the person in question still retains their rights. They are free to drop their POA at any time in favor of another one, and to access their bank accounts. I think your SIL may be overselling her power here. If its something you want to pursue, I would consult your own attorney. Good luck with whatever you decide!

[SonofThunder]

Hey SonofThunder,

To add to what goodgirl said, when my BPD M was in respite care and refusing to go to assisted living, I looked into the incompetence thing. I was told by AL that unless you go to court and the court declares someone incompetent which is a lengthy and difficult process, the person in question still retains their rights. They are free to drop their POA at any time in favor of another one, and to access their bank accounts. I think your SIL may be overselling her power here. If its something you want to pursue, I would consult your own attorney. Good luck with whatever you decide!

Thanks Psuedonym, 

Because of the multiple PD's involved and him being physically cared for well (uNPDsil has her reputation to uphold and working hard to ruin my uPDw's reputation), i will continue to advise my uPDw on simply being a visitor with her father, silently monitoring his care while there to make sure no neglect/physical abuse is present) and then as the previous poster stated, get the popcorn ready for the final show, when objectives get revealed. 

SoT.