Can both parents be PD?

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Riggo199

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Can both parents be PD?
« on: June 05, 2019, 08:56:55 PM »
Hi--

I am so grateful for this website...omg!  I don't usually post here..probably because my family is so messed up and I don't even know WHERE to begin.  I am not a very good writer, so excuse me if my words come across as confusing.

My Mom is an malignant Narc.  I have gone no-contact now for 5 years (it was a nightmare after I went NC....thankfully, its over).  I am/was the scapegoat. I WAS close to my father but am now thinking he is just as messed up as she is.  My parents divorced about 20 years ago.  He married a woman that is exactly like my mom...only a covert narc..instead of an overt narc.  My dad has always played the victim/poor-me...and I BELIEVED him.  He calls me every week, texts me every 3-4 days...and has only ever talked about how "wonderful" his new wife/family is.  I am just coming Out of the FOG with him, too.  I feel like an idiot for always feeling so sorry for him (that my Mom left him for his wealthy best friend..and how she was the one that tore our family apart"..his words).  I am starting to wake-up because I have been doing a ton of work on myself. Whenever I thought, "what about me and my feelings"...I immediately felt guilty for thinking of me.  SO!  The reason I am posting is because I just went to visit him and his wife at their new 55+ community.  The whole time he was bragging about his material possession and all his new friends he had.  Both him and my Mom spend every cent they have, they like everyone to think they are wealthy.  He does not have any money, only lives on credit cards.  I have money (because I have SAVED my whole life).  I am afraid he is going to come to me now and ask for money...b/c he is almost 80 and his wife told me they are flat broke and she may divorce him.  I am freaking out.  I want him out of my life.  I don't know how to get away from him.  BOth my parents call my husband, text/call my kids if they can't reach me.  I just hate it.  BUT, it is making me crazy now.  I am not sure if they get meaner/more self-absorbed with age and I should suck-it-up or what.

They have NEVER been there for me.  Just take, take, take.  I am embarrassed that I am 56 years old and just finding my strength.  I always thought my dad was an empath, like me....he cries/tears up when confronted about his past....so, I believed his "poor me" stories.....UGH.  But, he has NO boundaries and just suffocates me.  So, maybe he is NOT an empath. I have currently blocked him from contacting me because I don't know how to proceed....and, I KNOW it will get ugly.

THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart....if you got this far.

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WomanInterrupted

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Re: Can both parents be PD?
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2019, 01:52:10 AM »
Hi Riggo  :)

Yes, both parents can be PD, and the usual dynamic I've come across is one is unBPD and the other is unNPD.  One of them will be the driving force (the one who wears the pants), and the other is the *enabler* - who always takes their spouse's side, even if the spouse is dead wrong.  :roll:

For a long time, I thought unBPD  Didi was unNPD Ray's *victim* - because she always said she was, boo hoo hoo, poor her - but then I started *objectively* looking at the picture and SHE was the driving force, while Ray enabled all her bad decisions!   :aaauuugh:

Why do these people stay when they so often claim how miserable they are (or broke)?  Because each partner gets something out of the Dysfunctional Dance.  It *works* for them, in their own messed-up way.  Nobody on earth understands the intricacies of the dance except *them* - and nobody ever will.  :wacko:

So...his wife is saying she's going to divorce him because he's broke?  I wouldn't believe it for a second - first, he's making himself a *victim* again, and second, I think that was put out there to soften YOU up to provide $$$$$ for them.   :thumbdown:

Don't do it!  They made their mess - they can figure out a way to deal with it, even if it means selling the new place, renting a smaller place, and declaring bankruptcy.

Personally, if you think he's going to be fishing for cash and prizes, I'd block him - and I'd ask DH to block him, too.  If your children are adults, you can ask nicely  for them to block him - but if they  refuse, just tell them you don't want to hear *any* talk about poor grandpa is beside himself at not being able to get hold of you.  :violin:

If your kids are minors, just block his number on their phones.  That makes you a good, responsible parent.  8-)

If your kids are adults, you might want to have a chat with them about, "Did you ever notice how he's always the victim?" - and start educating them about PDs, so they know good boundaries repel PDs like garlic and a crucifix repels vampires.  :thumbup: :sunny:

Your money is just that - YOURS - and you earned it.  Just because your dad and his wife make poor decisions and continue to make them, doesn't mean you OWE them in any way, shape or form!  :no:

I was in my mid  40's when I started putting order to chaos with unBPD Didi and unNPD Ray, which seems to be about the median age - but it's NEVER too late to come Out of the FOG!  :)

Oh!  And I just want to throw this one out there, just in case:  NO, they can't  move into yours, and NO, you will NOT move in with them to defray costs.  :ninja:

You could use Medium Chill on your dad, but I think blocking him is probably a better idea in that you're making a clean break  and forging ahead *for yourself and your FOC.*  :yes:

 :hug:

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SunnyMeadow

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Re: Can both parents be PD?
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2019, 01:43:48 PM »
I am not sure if they get meaner/more self-absorbed with age and I should suck-it-up or what.

Please don't suck it up! I'd lessen contact or NC and start to view your dad and wife as annoying, sour people who live down the street. Mildly irritating and not worth your time. This is how I view my mom and it's helped me to disengage from an extremely enmeshed relationship with her.

In my mom's case, she's absolutely gotten meaner and more self absorbed with age. Everything is about her and my step-dad is an enabler. He pretty much has to be or his life would be even more awful than it is now. He enables her horrible spending habits. She thinks their 1 year old car should be traded in for the new model with the new front grill that looks so much better?? Yes, dear. We need new mattresses after 3 years of owning custom, elevating ones that were horrendously expensive?? Yes, dear. And on and on. My parents sound much like WomanInterrupted's parents. Amazing how much alike these people are!

And Riggo....if he asks you for money, HELL NO! I'd tell him you don't have any. Or they aren't getting a penny because they have been so irresponsible with their money. That would bring about NC and WWIII very quickly  :bigwink: 

I was in my late 40's when I googled "why does she love drama?" That eventually led me here, thankfully!! I felt really stupid and annoyed that so many people in my life saw through my mother but I didn't. I dragged my husband and children through life with her clinging on all of us. It makes me sad. My children think their grandma is a major pain in the butt and want nothing to do with her. I wish I had their insight years ago. Life would have been much better without her angry, waify, woe is me interactions.

Please keep posting here. We all learn from other's experiences. My family is severely messed up too! I've only written about a fraction of the messed up stuff that's happened. It's so screwed up, I think people would question if this stuff really happened.  :sad2:

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Hazy111

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Re: Can both parents be PD?
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2019, 02:25:34 PM »
Yes, absolutely. Codependency. Narcs and Borderlines often hook up. Trauma bonding

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Associate of Daniel

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Re: Can both parents be PD?
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2019, 07:00:18 PM »
I once read that a relationship between a NPD and a BPD can work because the NPD needs to be needed and the BPD needs looking after.  (I think I have the right allocations.)

This describes my uNPD exH and his wife to a tee.  Only, I think she is uNPD rather than BPD.  He's covert, she's more overt.

AOD

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Riggo199

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Re: Can both parents be PD?
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2019, 02:23:32 AM »
Thanks for responding.  I feel almost "sick" to my stomach.  I have been so blind and so naive all these years....and just LET both my parents abuse me.  They are really sick/disturbed people....I am thinking.  There was NEVER any love in my family.  I think I have denied me because I wanted so bad to be loved.  Just trying to process all this.....it's really sick.

There was soooo much dysfunction.  I have two sisters that are in group homes.  One is schizophrenic and the other mentally ill.  One was put in boarding school, and the other was sent to a group home.  To this day every time my Dad sees or talks to them he has to tell me what he has done for them.  It's like "oh, look at what I did and how wonderful I was to them'.  My Mom would see them and call me and say, "have I done my Motherly duty now"?  I thought this was so odd...but, ignored it.  I am so glad you helped me see that both parents played a roll in all the horror.  It was not just my Narc mom. 

 I feel like I just woke up and realized I come from another planet.  I just want OUT.  I am just done. 

Thanks for giving me advice on the money issue.  My gut tells me my Dad is just stringing me along as a safety net.  No more.






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Andeza

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Re: Can both parents be PD?
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2019, 06:38:35 PM »
Hi Riggo! Sounds like you've done very well for yourself despite the challenges in your life. So proud of you, really.  :thumbup: I just want to add a couple things really quickly.

Sometimes with family, we feel like we have to give them money because *insert sob story they've fed us* I follow a great (in my opinion) financial guy on youtube. His name is Dave Ramsey, and he would tell you if your dad asks for money, "don't give a drunk a drink..." I encourage you to watch a couple of his videos from his radio show, just to help you stand up. He has spent every dime not because he had to but because he wanted to and things made him feel good or better than others or some other slightly twisted view of reality. Money has therefore become his vice and if you give him any of your hard-earned money he's going to do with it the same thing he's always done. Spend it on things he doesn't need. If you really want to help your dad I would buy him a good financial self-help book, put the ball in his court to turn his life around if he really wants to, and then step away. Some would say if he's hard up, you could actually pay the outstanding bill, whatever it is, yourself. However, the money your dad then saves he will turn right back around and spend. There are so many stories of family saying "we're broke! Help us!" just to use the money to go on vacation or something equally unwise in the situation. I wish you the best, don't beat yourself up, we all had to come Out of the FOG at some point, my friend.

Here is a good financial book, the Total Money Makeover:
https://www.amazon.com/Total-Money-Makeover-Classic-Financial/dp/1595555277/ref=sr_1_1?crid=OQQSR8P9C0G5&keywords=total+money+makeover&qid=1559939576&s=gateway&sprefix=total+money+mak%2Caps%2C384&sr=8-1

And this one is for you, Boundaries:
https://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-Updated-Expanded-When-Control/dp/0310351804/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3OXS5DPTRR2Y6&keywords=boundaries+by+cloud+and+townsend&qid=1559939638&s=gateway&sprefix=boundar%2Caps%2C170&sr=8-1

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Riggo199

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Re: Can both parents be PD?
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2019, 07:49:45 PM »
Andenza:  Thanks for your reply, kind comments and the links.  I will definitely look at them... you are right, I really DO need help standing up to him.  I have tried my whole life to get him to look at his spending.  He would always just get mad at me and tell me to "just enjoy life because you could die tomorrow".  We moved every 1-2 years growing up, and I am now sure it is because he could "get a deal" somehow.  My NMom was/is an alcoholic, so there was always money for their booze!  I don't mean to ramble.....appreciate your taking the time to respond.

Think it boils down to:  I need to work on not being afraid to speak up.....AND, let go of the guilt/fear that I will have to take care of my shitty-aging parents!   :tongue2:

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WomanInterrupted

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Re: Can both parents be PD?
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2019, 02:15:56 AM »
You don't HAVE to give them money or take care of them as they age.  Both those things are THEIR problems to figure out!   :yes:

Just remember if your dad comes calling on the Bank of Riggo - "NO" is a complete sentence.   :thumbup:

Don't JADE - stick to Medium Chill:  "I can't do that."  "It doesn't work for us."  "We can't spare it."  "That's impossible."  :ninja:

When asked whyyyyyyyyyy? - see the previous sentences.  "Because I told you I can't do that."  "Because I told you it doesn't work for us."  "Because I told you we can't spare it."  "Because I told you it's impossible."  :ninja:

Do *not* be shaken from your Medium Chill *reasons* - and explanations for your reasons.   8-)

As far as being any sort of a caregiver - NO works here, too.   :yes:

You just can't do that.  It's not possible.  You're smart - I'm sure you'll figure out something.

I *love* that last one because it clearly shoves everything back to their side of the table.  8-)

Calls of, "I need you to take me to the doctor tomorrow..." - "I can't do that.  You'll have to make other arrangements."    :ninja:

Calls of, "I need you to take me to the ER.  I feel sick." - "Call an ambulance."   :ninja:

ALL bleats of wanting to go to the ER *have* to be met firmly with, "Call an ambulance."

Calls to pick them up?  "I can't manage it.  You'll have to take a cab."  :ninja:

And that includes coming home from a hospital visit.

NO trips to the pharmacy.  You can't just stop at the store and pick up X - and ten other things, all of which will be WRONG.   :roll:    NO cleaning of their place or laundry.  It's just not possible and you can't do it.

The only *why* I ever gave was, "I'm very busy and I can't do that."   :ninja:

Busy with WHAT?   :dramaqueen:

Oh, the usual.  Never a dull moment around here.  Just another typical day at Casa de Cray Cray.  Oh, you know, typical stuff - I don't want to bore you.  :ninja:

They're laid up after a surgery or illness?  "You'll have to speak to your doctor about getting the Visiting Nurse to check on you, and while you've got him on the phone, ask if he can recommend any aide services."   :ninja:

Seeing the pattern?   ;D

Make yourself REMOTE.  Aloof.  Distant.  Utterly *useless.*  You can't be depended upon or relied upon for a THING.   You're never around, never available, it's always a really bad time and you are very BUSY.

A word about BUSY - busy is you, doing absolutely nothing but reading a good book, binge-watching something on Netflix  you've been meaning to get to, lounging around in your PJs all day, or taking that long-overdue bubble bath you've planned on, with a nice glass of red.  :)

Busy isn't you doing - it's you BEING.   :zzz:   :)

Get comfortable with that idea, because it was one of the things that tripped me up at first.  I wasn't actually busy, and *could* do what unBPD Didi wanted, but I just *didn't want to.*   :P

Another pit-fall to avoid is, "Drop everything and come NOW!  Somebody is in the hospital and it's SERIOUS!!!!"   :dramaqueen:

Life doesn't stop just because somebody is in the hospital.  Don't visit.  Call infrequently, at best - and hopefully when they're out for testing.  :evil2:

By using all those tactics, I successfully avoided being a caregiver for unBPD Didi, who thought she was owed a *slave* at hers because she just didn't WANT to take care of herself or the house, and later, after a bunch of medical hoovers I mostly ignored (phone only, infrequently), thought she was OWED a hospital bed in our living room.   :aaauuugh:

Yeah - didn't happen.  She died in Hospice, angry at the world - especially me, who didn't even see her on her deathbed, because I knew she was just going to say every horrible thing on her mind. 

I've already got the album.  I didn't need another live performance.    :sadno: :barfy:

UnNPD Ray then popped up on the radar and I was SO sick of it that after I dehoarded his house, I went VVVVVVVVVVVVLC with him and mostly avoided his calls.  He eventually fell, the cops were called,  APS had him pulled from the house, he was declared incompetent and placed in a memory care unit - and I'm NC.   :heythere:

They lived *three miles from our house.*  A fifteen minute drive, at best.  And I was able to stonewall my way out of *any* involvement with them, other than unwanted phone contact - which I'd now remedy by *blocking their phone number.*   :yes:

I was a wreck at first, but my backbone kicked in once I got good and ANGRY at all the blatant manipulation - how DARE you?  Shouldn't either of you thought ahead to this day, when you were busy mentally and physically abusing me as a CHILD?  Since you are SEVERELY overdrawn at the Empathy Bank, I honestly have NO F's to G.   :evil2:

If your dad starts up with you, you might be surprised at how angry you get - GOOD.  8-)

Anger makes it a hell of a lot easier to set healthy boundaries.  :)

You're going to NAIL IT, Riggo!  Trust yourself!   :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:

 :hug:

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Riggo199

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Re: Can both parents be PD?
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2019, 08:49:53 PM »
WomanInterrupted:  Thank you SO much.  You have helped me more than you will ever know.  I am so grateful...just to have a "what do I SAY" list.  That is my biggest fear....that I will revert back into my "OK, Ill be there and fix everything".  Maybe not, though....I have worked on myself A TON...and am just MAD now.  I just feel so damn beat down.  Hopefully, this is a normal phase and it will pass.  My whole circle of friends have gone, partly by me..I just "let go"....because I realized that my "friends" were just like my parents.  Takers without any reciprocating.  I have allowed this. :sadno:  I am trying to collect new friends...vettting them VERY carefully!   Anyway, it's so nice to be able to have some help here...my new friends.  :)

I am so sorry for what you had to go through...oh my gawd, what a nightmare it must have been.  BUT, if you had not gone through this.....you would not have helped me!!  Thanks again!

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WomanInterrupted

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Re: Can both parents be PD?
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2019, 02:15:21 AM »
You're MORE than welcome!  :)

Print that list off - or go to the toolbar and print off Medium Chill phrases.  Keep them by your phone, as a *prompt* - it's not cheating!

Or you can just cut and paste pertinent MC What To Say  into a new doc, and keep that at the ready.  (I've included others I missed in my last post, closer to the end of this one.)

I used to walk around the house practicing Medium Chill phrases until they rolled naturally off the tongue.  The cats probably thought, "That's it.  She's gone mental!"  - but I had to do it because if  I choked or showed *any* sign of weakness, Didi would have pounced and  treated me like a prosecutor treats a witness they think is lying!   :sharkbait:

I always loved answering "why" with what I just said previously.  You can sense their growing frustration because you're not giving them reasons they can pick holes in, or giving them an opening to say things like, "Oh, you can do that LATER, when you're done with what I need you to do!"  :dramaqueen:

Didi was big on that, too.  But you can't argue with BUSY - especially when I won't budge an inch and tell her anything other than, "Oh you know...more of the usual..."  :ninja:

It *was* hell, but you know what?  It proved to me that I'm a hell of a lot tougher, stronger and resilient than Didi or Ray gave me credit for.  8-)   Along the way I realized I didn't *have* to be afraid of either of them - that was left-over from my childhood, when my survival depended on obedience, placating and appeasement.   :spooked:

Honestly?  She was in her 70's, had severe osteoporosis, emphysema, a battery of health issues she ignored in favor of her made-up medical mystery special little snowflake schitck, and Ray was in his 80's, had a battery of health issues himself including his balance - the man could fall for absolutely no reason, and wouldn't use a cane or walker, because they were for "old" people.  :roll:

So what did I really have to be afraid of?  They weren't just going to show up at my house, muscle their way in and  spank me for being a naughty girl and a selfish, spoiled little brat. 

All they had were nasty words and tones to match.  Didi could slam the phone down on me and give me a 2-week Silent Treat - and yes, when you're thinking of it as a TREAT, there is something fundamentally wrong with the "relationship."  :yes:

I have a feeling you're not going to revert back to, "Yes, I'll do it/fix it..." - because your *anger* is engaged, and will pop up and say, "Hi there!  Let me protect you!"  ;D  when your parents try *manipulating* you again.

Once you start to hear that stuff, you can't unhear it.  And then you'll start noticing it's *all the bloody time!*  Nearly everything they say is to manipulate you into doing for them, whether it's a good idea or not - and the *worse* the effect it will have on your time, your health, or your finances, the MORE they'll insist it MUST be done.   :aaauuugh:

Other things I used to do were kick a problem back up to A Higher Authority.  Didi would drone on about her poor health - and I'd say, "Have you spoken to your doctor?" :ninja:

She's say no, because she didn't want to BOTHER him.  :dramaqueen:

I'd say, "You're not bothering him.  You're paying him.  And you really need to call him because I can't help you."   :ninja:

If yours start about money, I'd say, "Hmmm...have you spoken to a financial advisor/accountant/tax attorney/your bank/other applicable person - like an attorney versed in bankruptcy proceedings?"  :ninja:

They'll probably say no - that's when you say, "Well, you really need to call (applicable person).  I can't help you."   :ninja:

Chances are, they won't be able to get off the phone fast enough because you've just told them to *help themselves.*  :roll:

This might lead to they don't know HOW to do that or where to find such a person.  Stick to, "Well, you're smart - I'm sure you'll figure out something.  I gotta go - the dog is on fire again.  Bye!"  :ninja:

In other words, you make an excuse after telling them they'll figure out something and just get off the phone, any way you can - even if you resort to setting off a timer, making the dryer buzz or ringing your own doorbell.  :yes:

I just wanted to add these because I realized I hadn't addressed them - and they were ALL very helpful in putting order to chaos and getting Didi off my back.   :yahoo:

I'm *all* about paying it forward because I got so much help and good advice in my time of need.   :grouphug:

And like you, I started realizing I was *surrounded* by friends who were just like my parents!  All take, and no give, and if I ever needed anything - crickets.  :blink:

I have DH, a long-distance friend who may or may not be PD but is *definitely* her family scapegoat, and many acquaintances I tend to keep at arm's length, because I really don't *need* close friends, especially if they're prone to stabbing me in the back.

I think the urge to have hundreds of real-life and FB friends may diminish as we age - or it might be me.  I'm perfectly content talking to cats, who don't have an agenda - and friendly faces and voices on this site, because it is *safe* - and we're all in the same boat:  losers in the parent lottery.

 :hug:

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Riggo199

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Re: Can both parents be PD?
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2019, 03:55:47 AM »
WI: Thanks. I had to laugh about the cats comment.  I feel the same way..just happy with my cats, no EXPECTATIONS.   8-)  Appreciate your response on the friends issue.  I am glad I am not alone in that regards, too.  I just had to walk-away, and now I am finding I like my solitude.  I still go to the gym everyday (exercise has always been a cartharsis for me), and am friendly but don't have to engage with others.  I have trust issues now.  Always something....hahahaha!

You are so right....WHAT am I so afraid of?  That's really a sign of a sick dynamic.  I will practice my words from your list!!!!   :)

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Spirit in the sky

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Re: Can both parents be PD?
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2019, 02:47:34 PM »
Yes, absolutely. Codependency. Narcs and Borderlines often hook up. Trauma bonding

Yep, both my parents have unPD, totally co-dependant and locked in a trauma bond. Nightmare!

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bohemian butterfly

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Re: Can both parents be PD?
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2019, 03:38:58 PM »
I am afraid he is going to come to me now and ask for money...b/c he is almost 80 and his wife told me they are flat broke and she may divorce him.  I am freaking out.  I want him out of my life.  I don't know how to get away from him.  BOth my parents call my husband, text/call my kids if they can't reach me.  I just hate it.  BUT, it is making me crazy now.  I am not sure if they get meaner/more self-absorbed with age and I should suck-it-up or what.

Riggo199,

I understand your fear, but please, please do not feel guilty.  You owe him absolutely NOTHING.  He was the parent and you were the child.  He will be OK, you do NOT need to bail him out.  You have worked soooo hard, don't let him financially destroy you, suck you dry.  I have read many stories where the PD has taken every last cent and still carries on....leaving the victim to drown in debt.

No, you don't need to suck it up.  He made his choices and makes choices every day, you are NOT and never were responsible for him. 

Please do not let guilt (your own or his) try to trick you.  Everyone is responsible for themselves.  He is responsible for him.






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foobarred

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Re: Can both parents be PD?
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2019, 05:51:36 PM »
Definitely.  Dad was uNPD, mom is DPD with some borderline tendencies.  While he was alive, his behavior dominated the family dynamic, and mom played the "poor me" victim, the tail on his kite.  But after he died, her own control strategies started coming to the fore, with weaponized waifiness and dependence.

I fell right into her trap, because after years of being ignored and belittled by my dad, I thought, "finally, someone respects my abilities and opinions"  Nope.  She just wanted me to take over responsibility for her life, so she could beat me over the head with it later. :sadno:

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Riggo199

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Re: Can both parents be PD?
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2019, 07:21:16 PM »
Thanks to all that have responded.  You have helped to give me strength to now get away from him.  I have blocked him from my phone and all social media.  All week, I kept thinking, "oh geez, father's day is coming up....do I wish him a Happy Father's Day, then block again"?  I kept ruminating on this......how insane.  The more I thought about this...the more my thoughts said, "WELL, what about YOU...what do you WANT to do"?   Crazy, before I would never even think about what I wanted.  I was a nothing/nobody.  The more I  have time alone to just think...the more I am realizing, that I just to totally walk away from my parents.  I do not even want to talk to them.  They just used me all my life as their slave/therapist/money lender, etc.

Is it bad to just "door slam"?  Oh god, here again......I am wondering if I will 'hurt his feelings'.  Wow.  This is just sick.  Has anyone just walked away and said to themselves, "I am done"!  This is where I am at.   Thanks, again,  for helping me.  Someday, this will all be behind me.  UGH!

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Andeza

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Re: Can both parents be PD?
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2019, 07:46:23 PM »
Well, you're already NC with your M, if you choose to go NC with your F then you'd do just about the same thing.

I too filled the role of therapist for my uBPDM. It sucked. I wasn't allowed to struggle with what the family was going through at the time because she turned into a three year old having a full on tantrum and needed me to take her hand and walk her through when I had my own serious problems. Lord have mercy, I should have been therapy at the time. Sheesh. :blink:

Time to be you Riggo, without their nasty voices in your head trying to control you, guilt you, or beat you down. The voice that says suck it up is them. The voice that says you owe them anything is also them. The voice that says how dare you hurt his feelings? Yup, that's them too. :bighug: It takes time but you'll start to feel so much better. Whether you choose to drop him like a hot potato or not we're here for advice and help any time.

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treesgrowslowly

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Re: Can both parents be PD?
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2019, 08:23:31 PM »
Holy what an active thread this is!!

Riggo I agree with the previous posts. What can I add? I thought.

Understand that there have been forces, internal and external. We want to be loved by our parents and family. Externally, the story of parental love is everywhere!! I dont know about other people but countering all thar internal need for love and external conditioning that "love comes from parents", is not easy to simply discard if our parents happened to be too disordered to love us. Its not our fault that we need love, that our parents are PD, and that the culture is obsessed with the myth that all parents love their children.

It is a process to build a life for one self if one did not get the parents everyone else in our neighbourhood seemed to get (some people got good parents. I did not) . coming to terms with this involves seeing that you were not given some free choice, and seeing that you cannot blame yourself for what you wanted, tried, and did over the years. We all want to be loved. As far as I can tell, no one comes over to stop PDs from ruining family events and relationships. We are on our own when we have PD parents and we do our Best. Then the fog lifts someday and we realize we xannot keep doing all this manoevering and navigating just to keep things good for the PD parent.

Our relationship with them doesn't feel right, and our needs don't get met, and we realize something has to really change... and it won't be the PD.

How do I feel about this? Ugh. Today i feel miserable about it. I feel hurt and neglected and angry and drained and ignored and misunderstood. I want the years I spent looking for their love, i want those years back!!

I share this because I think that ACONs adult children of narcissists are frustrated. A lot. So some of the frustration is lessened by having others validate our experience who have been there too.

Whether you wish him happy fathers day or not, the fog is lifting and will continue to lift. The jig is up. You are seeing yourself as someone you need to protect and that people without boundaries, are not people who you are going to feel responsible for anymore. Your boundaries are to protect yourself. A parent who doesn't have boundaries is not taking responsibility for themselves. Period. PD or not, their life is their responsibility.

I'm glad youre taking steps to get away from the cycle of chaos. I'm sorry that you also have to do this with a parent. We live in a world where people with decent parents, do not want to hear about the rest of us. It's up to us to help each other out.

Neither of my biological parents too responsibility for me when I was a child. They insisted that I parent them. This was wrong.
It wasnt against the law, it wasnt detected by anyone and i was never protected from their abuse. This is the world we live in. A world of PDs who do what they can get away with and no one protects us from them. We have to protect ourselves.

 They have not been allowed into my life for over 10 years. Now my work is in living without parents. The orphan who never knew parental love. Some days I'm so exhausted. Orphan life is hard but life with their PD version of "love" is harder.

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WomanInterrupted

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Re: Can both parents be PD?
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2019, 02:14:08 AM »
His feeling are going to be hurt any time you do or say something he doesn't like or doesn't approve of, but you are *not responsible for his feelings!*   :yes:

Your father is a grown-ass man who can manage his *own* feelings - and if he can't, it's not your job to do it *for* him.

It's *good* that you're thinking about what you want!  What you want is *very important* and overrides their wants and needs.  8-)

So, you don't call for fathers' day -  I promise, the world won't end.    :bigwink:

The way your father sees it, he is OWED a call on HIS special day.  He is the ONLY father on earth, and other people don't matter -only he matters and MUST get that call.  Never mind the world is heating up at an alarming rate, we're still involved in a couple of wars, the political landscape is frightening as hell, and turning on the news has given many of us symptoms of C-PTSD - HE is the only thing that matters!   :violin: :roll:

But he's not - he's just an old man who has alienated you, by being himself.   :ninja:

I said, "That's it.  I'm DONE!" when unNPD Ray was found incompetent and placed in a memory care unit.  He was in a SAFE environment, getting the care he needed, and not the care he thought I owed him.

I made it clear to the staff I'm no contact - and after the REAL Ray started to come out and make life miserable for everybody, they took me *very* seriously  - including every awful thing I predicted he'd say or do at his intake interview (which I handled, as POA).

I was *blunt.*  I was *explicit.*  I didn't want the staff or other residents getting hurt or being manhandled by Ray, in his ever-present need to touch women inappropriately, or make comments *in front of them* about their bodies.   :blowup:

When everything I said began to come true with frightening accuracy, they took me DEAD seriously - now I'm only called if he acts out, falls, or they want to put him on a new med, which requires permission.  (Most don't, but the ant-ipsychotics DO - and Ray is on a goodish amount of them!)

I thought he'd be kicked out after 6 months - instead, he was diagnosed as psychotic (for *most of his adult life, based on what I told them*   :jawdrop:) after 7, given a new drug regimen and moved to a private room, even though he's on Medicaid - to protect others from HIM!   :aaauuugh:

Here's the weird thing:  I don't think Ray was actually incompetent when he was diagnosed as such.  He was trying to work an *agenda* and it blew up in his face.  Now - who knows, and the less I know, the better!   :yahoo:

All in all, it's been the most *validating* experience - hell, if *professionals* are having that much trouble with him, how the hell was I supposed to handle him?   :aaauuugh:

And mostly, it's been peaceful - and tranquil.  There is no unnecessary *drama* in our day to day lives, in "WTF is Ray gonna pull next?"  :roll:

YOU get to decide  what YOU want - and if that's the peace and quiet of NC, that's what you DO.  Your parents don't live out on an ice floe or in a vacuum - they have phones that dial other numbers than yours, and there are plenty of agencies and services  out there to help the elderly - all they have to do is reach out, or have somebody do it on their behalf - but that somebody will NOT be named Riggo!   :yes:

PD  and old age are NOT a good combination - and you're wise to walk away *now* before it gets really bad - when they need more help (physically, medically, financially) and it seems like they've got you on speed-dial, or even suggest you need to move them in to yours, to look after them.   :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh:

As much as they scream old, lonely, sick, broke and *bored* - those are the *choices they made for themselves.*   They are bad choices, but it's a free country, and you're allowed to make all the bad decisions you want, as long as they're legal.

Your parents can remedy any of those situations at any time - but they just don't want to, so it isn't up to you do to it for them.

The safest, kindest and sanest thing you can do for yourself is walk away, and let *professionals* deal with them when the time comes.  :)

 :hug: