Me vs In Laws - DH hates confrontation so takes the path of least resistance

[Consumed]

I wouldn't ever want a me vs in laws scenario, but these situations are often created when they try to drive a wedge between DH and I or pin their unreasonable demands on us. The past few years I have done everything I can to help DH get Out of the FOG. I have sent him links to forums, articles, ordered books, arranged counselling and therapy etc. He keeps telling me how much he has changed over the past few years and how he is such a different person now and understands how dysfunctional his family are etc. However on the occasions where he has been tested by his family, he has sadly failed. He has made very little improvement in all this time and what I have come to realise is that it doesn't matter what I say or do, he has to want the change for himself and sadly he doesn't. There is also little incentive for him to change because I am not going anywhere, and providing he obeys his family and puts them first, he has a good relationship with them. Every time he throws me under the bus and does not stand up for me or us, it leaves me feeling resentful, wanting to withdraw emotionally and it chips away at our marriage and trust which means we lack intimacy. This is not what I want from my marriage.

So I have set some boundaries for myself which seem to be working, and I am trying to work on accepting my husband for who he is even though I do feel his relationship with his family is unhealthy, dysfunctional and detrimental to our marriage. One thing I have noticed is that my husband cannot stand any type of confrontation or conflict and is very much a people pleaser. In the past when there have been issues with me and his family, he has told me to have it out with them myself. If we do something that they don't like, he will blame it on me. In general he is inclined to do whatever his family demands, because he does not want to face the backlash that comes with going against them. An example of this is that his family wanted a 5 figure sum of money from us to pay off a debt of theirs. DH and I agreed we would not be paying it for numerous reasons. After communicating this to his family, his Father made his dissatisfaction known and the family bombarded him with texts and calls manipulating him and guilt tripping him. This led to DH pretty much begging me to just allow him to give his family the money. It was clear to me that he changed his mind due to the negative, manipulative reaction from his family. We argued about it, and I ultimately put my foot down and told DH we would be sticking to our original decision of not giving money. I know full well that cowering in to their demands at the first sign of pressure sets the tone, and will then become the expected norm. My frustration is that if I had left this situation with DH to handle, our bank accounts would be empty by now and he validated this by saying that if he wasn't with me, he would give them the money which saddens me.

DH has told me in the past that it is easier to let me down than them, so I know I am going to have a battle on my hands for the rest of my life. My initial hope was that he would learn to assert himself and stand up for what he believes in and deal with the backlash, however with therapy being unsuccessful it seems unlikely this is going to happen any time soon. So my question is over the coming years, in all the situations I am going to face where DH is feeling 'stuck in the middle' between myself and his FOO, and he feels inclined to do whatever they say because of how big their bark is, should I just bark even louder like I did with the money scenario and stand my ground with DH as it sadly seems he will back down to whoever has the loudest bark. I know this actually sounds awful, but it appears to be the only way to prevent him from cowering to their demands. I don't want to be enforcing my own demands on DH as it makes me just as bad, but my hope of DH and I facing his FOO together as a team seems unlikely to happen anytime soon, and is ultimately out of my control as to whether that happens in the future because that will be on him. I envision fighting these battles on my own to be draining, and will take a toll on our marriage, but I don't see an alternative and I think I can do it.

[Cat of the Canals]

It's unfortunate that you're in a position where you've had to be strong for the both of you, to protect your FOC. And I think you're probably right... you're going to have to plan on fighting a lot of these battles on your own moving forward. If that means barking louder than they do, so be it. I wonder if, over time, setting boundaries for yourself and for your family will encourage him to start doing the same.

As far as the specific event you described above - ILs ask for money, you and husband agree you won't be lending, ILs throw a fit, husband wants to give in to their demands - do you think discussing their probable reaction with him beforehand might help him weather the fallout that comes when he tells them no?

Example: You've had your discussion and agreed that you won't be lending them the money, and then you say to him, "I'm glad we're on the same page. But I think we should be prepared for the fact that they might not understand our decision. It's possible they'll even get upset when we say no. If that happens, we should try to keep in mind that we didn't come to this decision lightly. So it's important that we stick to our guns, even if they pressure us to change our minds. Do you agree?"

Maybe if he's 1. prepared for the possibility of a bad reaction and 2. has already agreed to stick to the plan you made together, he won't want to cave so easily to their manipulations.

In any case, stay strong.

[bloomie]

Consumed - I can't help but connect your H's behaviors in this post with the ones you describe in another recent post found here: https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=80104.msg694569#msg694569.

I feel like I am answering both posts when I say that I can so closely relate to the frustrating and disappointing choices our H's make when deep in the FOG with their own behaviors and with the behaviors of their FOO.

I am a bit further down the road and some insights from my own H who was also conflict avoidant and, as he puts it his family had: "a strangle hold on me and I didn't even realize it" is that if your H is like my own, he is a man in deep conflict with himself.

For us, it was really easy to see my in law's behaviors as THE issue - and they were/are/will most likely be an issue because it is a disordered and unhealthy family system and we will have LC for reasons we cannot avoid - but, we had to face that the real issue in our home, the root cause of the eroding trust and intimacy between us was my H was a man divided against himself when he was not taking a protective stance with me over our family and hiding behind my strength all the while resenting it and lashing out.

What my H has shared with me, as we have worked through this, is he realizes now he was putting his own comfort, himself, before me and our family. That most necessary realization and the remorse that followed allowed us to then rebuild a new mindset and toolset and trust together and to be able to handle, reasonably well, anyone that threatens the wellbeing and stability of our family. It has been quite the journey.

I think this is a lot to work through without help. My own DH says that sometimes a man needs to hear just how off his priorities or behaviors are from another man. A trusted mentor or group of men who are working through things together, a spiritual advisor such as a rabbi or pastor, a male therapist - or all of these things together may be needed to penetrate the FOG.

So often in the face of abuse, unhealthy patterns, and enmeshment in our marriages we become disempowered. I know I did. I was looking for ways to live with unacceptable behaviors and lashing out at me. I needed to shift my attention to my core values for myself - and one of those core values that I defined was I do not allow myself to be abused. By anyone. Ever.

Just as it is your H's responsibility to keep guard and watch over your family's savings when his family would deplete that, I believe it is your responsibility to keep guard and watch over your tender heart in how you allow others to treat you and speak to you. Please hear my gentle tone with this question... are you possibly avoiding your H's displeasure and the discomfort that may result if you set firm boundaries with consequences over disrespectful behaviors? I don't know if it is ever good for a partner to be certain they will suffer no serious consequences for verbal and emotional abuse in the relationship.

I write this with trepidation and not to in any way incite you to an ultimatum or taking steps that are not right for you and I thought long and hard before responding this directly, but allowing your H to emotionally and verbally abuse you without serious consequence is possibly ensuring it will continue. 

I wish my own H could speak directly to you, but what he does say is it was me stepping out of the middle with his family, him facing their direct behaviors and his choices in those relationships, me setting firm boundaries with consequences every single time he lashed out or withdrew, me refusing to coddle and have a soft downy nest for a man whose behaviors were hurting me, our bond, our family, a group of men and counseling, prayer and deep inner work, that finally pierced the self serving FOG he was oh, so comfortable being uncomfortable in.

You are in a very tough spot. My heart is with you and your FOC as you find your way to an atmosphere of unity and honor in your marriage and where you both put your FOC first.

[Poison Ivy]

Thank you, Bloomie.  Especially for this:  "we had to face that the real issue in our home, the root cause of the eroding trust and intimacy between us was my H was a man divided against himself when he was not taking a protective stance with me over our family and hiding behind my strength all the while resenting it and lashing out." Unfortunately, in my home, I was the only one who faced the real issue.  Every once in a while, my then-husband would acknowledge the issue, but he never did so for long enough to repair the issue.  We are now divorced.

[Consumed]

Bloomie - Thank you so much for your in depth response which has truly captured my situation. Like your husband, his family most definitely have a strange hold over him and he sure is in deep conflict with himself. The difference however is that it seems your husband was willing to look at himself and realise that he was not taking a protective stance over his family due to putting his own comfort first. My husband will not acknowledge this, and my feeling is it is because he is content with his situation. There is little reason for him to change. My husbands social circle is extremely small and they do not have the healthiest relationships themselves so there is no one he can rely on to help him there. And we tried a male therapist who I felt was doing more harm than good.

I have most definitely been disempowered, and this is something I am currently working on. I wouldn't say that I am avoiding my H's displeasure and the discomfort that may result if I set firm boundaries with consequences over disrespectful behaviours.. It is more a case of other than leaving I don't know what boundaries and consequences I can set? I can't change who he is, and I don't want to leave. So what does that leave me with? And you're right that it is not good for a partner to be certain they will suffer no serious consequences for verbal and emotional abuse in the relationship because there is no incentive for it to stop. Hence why am I actually now looking at how to almost tolerate this, because the only person I can change is myself.

More recently I have most definitely stepped out of the middle with his family. In fact it is this action which has now brought to light his fleas which I guess was initially overshadowed by all his family's issues. He is definitely facing their behaviours directly on his own, but I feel that rather than him coming to realise for himself how dysfunctional their behaviours are, he's actually back to just enjoying enmeshed life with them without me! At this point I really see the only options as accept or leave - kind of like the serenity prayer. I have set boundaries and consequences with his FOO with regards to contact with myself etc. I just don't know if there is anything more I can do regarding him as my situation appears to be similar to that of Poison Ivy.

[all4peace]

Consumed, sadly this is a familiar dynamic to many of us here on the IL board.

Some things that have helped me:

1. Name it.
2. Put a price on it.
3. Hold your ground.
4. Stay in counseling by yourself to get support and coping strategies.

DH and I had recent conflict when his uNBPDm tried (yet again, for many years now) to get private access to our DD, who doesn't want to be accessed by DH's family. DH has significant fear in confronting his mother. I do believe that there's a small boy inside of him who shakes with terror at the thought of it. It helps me to have compassion for that small child, while asking the grown man to stand tall anyway.

For us in this recent conflict, the above steps looked like this:
1. "I need to be clear. Are you stating that your need to feel safe from angering your mother is bigger than your need to protect our daughter?" I'm truly not sure if this is fair or manipulative, but I wanted to state the 2 things I saw going on.
2. "I understand why you are deeply afraid of angering her. I feel so much sadness for what life must have been like for you as a little boy to fear her so much now even as a grown man. But I need you to remember that you are also a husband and a father. You may be focusing on not causing conflict, but I'm letting you know that I feel we are losing your love and protection when you refuse to stand up for our DD."
3. In our case, DD requested that my DH deal with the situation. He said he would, but then started moving backwards, trying to find an out, trying to argue DD out of her request. I stood by and held him to his word. "You've promised to deal with this. You promised to do so because you are a loving father and would prefer to take the fallout for our DD rather than making our (teen) DD deal with it herself."
4. Counseling ongoing. We'll see what our T thinks of the way we handled the above situation.

In our case, DH confronted, MIL lashed out back at him, and I then stood by his side and responded to her directly and quite, quite clearly. She instantly backed down. I'm ok with standing by his side, but I do understand how frustrating and upsetting it gets to not have your DH standing up at all or trying to stand behind you.


Again, asking our DH's to name it can make it really clear.
"Are you saying your priority is....?"
"I'm trying to understand, are you going back on the promise you made?"
"Please help me understand, how do you see our marriage as your priority, as compared to your family relationships?"


One thing to remember: This is very likely a trauma response. I believe that healthy and whole adults are able to set and receive boundaries. This kind of terror response is possibly coming from a place of childhood trauma and it's really not the kind that can be logicked away.

[all4peace]

This feels rather personal to put out there, but I will as it sometimes so hard to understand boundaries within a marriage and how to set "consequences" for another adult.

In the very recent past, after 20+ of conflict over the ILs, when DH would stonewall, get super defensive or absolutely refuse to work toward conflict resolution in our marriage, I simply wouldn't sleep in our bed that night. It sounds like a tantrum, and maybe it was, but it was shockingly effective. My motive was that it felt dissonant for me to cuddle next to a man who wasn't valuing my voice or working towards harmony, and I would feel sleepless, agitated and angry. When I started sleeping alone those nights instead, I felt peace and slept well. AND, the most important accidental consequence was that finally, finally DH had tangible repercussions for refusing to deal. I didn't intend this, but that's what happened. It upset him, agitated him and made him start working on our stuff.

I told T about it, as I felt it was probably a really poor choice of mine, but T told me to go for it 2/3 of the time and 1/3 of the time turn towards DH even when I didn't feel like it.

I'm sure many factors went into breaking our logjam, but that one stands out. I still don't know what to think about it, as my view of marriage is that I give 100% and don't withhold anything at all. However, nothing would budge DH until this (and therapy with a male therapist). Hope that helps.

[Poison Ivy]

all4peace, thank you SO MUCH for your posts above.  I'm divorced, but some things are going on for our children that might result in me asking my ex-husband to choose to make them a priority over his father.  I really appreciate having the talking points you've suggested.

[Maisey]

I'm ok with standing by his side, but I do understand how frustrating and upsetting it gets to not have your DH standing up at all or trying to stand behind you.

That sums it up so well.

Recently being NC (its not been smooth), with that settling my mind more, I came to realize how angry i was at H. More than I ever thought and I can see that has contributed in eroding our relationship. I am having difficulty having compassion for that small boy, or even giving it thought, when the grown man takes it and runs.

M,

[treesgrowslowly]

I agree with what is posted here so far.
Parents who show no shame demanding a 5 figure sum 'gift' (even a loan) ?? I wonder how much guilt and shame they allow themselves to ever feel.

Or if that is the role your husband took on. He agreed as a child to hold all the emotions they couldn't deal with in themselves and cannot actually process his own anger so he gives in to them over and over. I wonder if this is what he learned to do to live with them as a child.

It sounds like he is trying out something that we are all tempted to do at times in life: perhaps I can be in relationship with my own parents and my new partner by giving people a little bit of what they ask from me each time they ask.

It doesn't work but we probably all try it at some point because the reality of the situation is that our own parents are not taking responsibility for themselves and will come to us for things that other parents do for themselves. Like pay debts, but also, deal with their own feelings. Not ask their child now an adult, to hold all their guilt or shame for them so they can live without really tackling those emotions in themselves.

Someone else feels responsible for them so they are enabled. This someone else always ends up having their own life damaged by their love for their own parents. It is so hard to come to see that loving our parents doesn't mean we are responsible for them.

The 'glue' between me and my in laws was never strong enough to create the trauma bond they had with their kids. What helped me deal with the reality of the situation was reminding myself of their behaviours, what I saw when I spent time with them. Including the many years of witnessing them act out and then take zero responsibility for acting out.

Remembering this keeps me sane when I get angry about the situation with them. It keeps me from re-entering their drama even when I think I 'should'. A daughter in law probably can't introduce consequences for people 20 years older than her, who have lived 60 plus years without learning how to be respectful. If they don't manage their relationships with respect, your goal becomes medium chill around them, and respecting yourself no matter what they do.

[Alexmom]

I am sorry you are in a dynamic like this in which your husband is willing to throw you under the bus in the name of his FOO.  It must really hurt each time this happens and I can understand the resentment that would build up having experienced a similar dynamic early on in my marriage.  The resentment is a concern as it is what chips away at a marriage and causes damage to a marriage.  Marital vows IMO are a promise to put each first - above all others - in a sacred commitment to each other and there is no other relationship that requires this, not with mom or dad or anyone in a family - just between a husband and a wife.  It's sad that your husband took vows but is not practicing this aspect of them. 

So, to answer your question, if your husband isn't willing to protect your finances, home, privacy, or whatever else your IL's are gunning for of yours, then I would absolutely speak up, dig in, and stand your ground.   Maybe in time when your IL's see that you are not swayed by their guilt, manipulation and drama, they will move on to someone else.  That was my experience when I stood my ground with a very firm 'No' with some of the vampires in my husband's FOO. 

[NotFooled]

My DH is very conflict avoidant.  I'm also very conflict avoidant so both of us found ourselves dishing out money for FIL while he was in ASLF with advanced Alzheimer's  when OCPDMIL would complain about paying for things he needed.  Even though they had the money.

It all came to a head when I was undergoing cancer treatment and FIL was on hospice dying.  I was on steroids and I didn't want to deal with my OCPDMIL and uPDBIL bs anymore.  So I got very angry with DH and told him to put his foot down about OCPDMIL's home and other issues, otherwise we were out and she wasn't going to receive any help from us.  I feel bad because I got so angry and I do think it was the steroids and medicines I was on that forced me to be so confrontational with DH which forced him to be confrontational with his OCPDM and uPDB.

In the end it turned out to be a good thing because OCPDMIL has seem to broken the enabling with uPDBIL and she has put her house on the market and they both pretty much leave me alone.  Also OCPDMIL seems to respect DH's boundaries now and doesn't bother him like she use to.

It seems to me sometimes you have to act like the Hulk to get people to respect your boundaries.

[Rose1]

Reminds me of exubpdmil. If I politely said no or disagreed it was the end of the world. Complaints to exbpdh, "delegations" by enfil to explain how I was going wrong, bad mouthing to exh re "that woman you married".
On the very few occasions (maybe 3 over 40 years)I lost it with her and told her off I got nothing.no complaints, no bad mouthing, no disrespectful calls to exh.

I dont miss it.

[Leonor]

Hi!

I had to put that boundary down too. ILs are like giant black holes sucking up every particle of matter around them. Woosh! There goes my weekend. Woosh! There goes my personal space. Woosh! There goes my wallet!

I also wanted to say that your boundaries *have* created a change in the dynamic. Just by creating distance, they have had to shift. And why not shift *back* to a place they already know? But it isn't a real step backwards, because all of a sudden there is someone who is not playing along. They sense it big time.

So theyre going, consciously or no, to try to shift you back in. They're going to escalate the enmeshment and blow FOG all over the place. Then you'll buckle and go back to supporting them in their dysfunction.

The trick, and its super hard, is to stay strong and safe in your boundaries. Find an activity you like. Reconnect with an old friend. Join a group. Go to therapy. Reinvest your energy away from the crazy. Then when h. starts to worry about mommy or when daddy calls in a huff, you say, "Oh. I hope it works out. Well, I'm off to knitting class. Love you, bye!"

Call out any hurts done to you. Instead of saying, "Instead of spending time with your wife you're all caught up in your parents," try, "I was really looking forward to having dinner with you and when you said you couldn't make it I felt really upset." If he comes back with, "But Mama needed ...", stay strong:  "I understand that, but I'm talking to you about my feelings." Keep the issue about the two of you, about your relationship and avoid the Parent Trap.

Most likely, things will get really bad before they get better. But in the meantime you'll be working on yourself, with new hobbies, more friends, better insight and stronger boundaries. And thatvwill clear the FOG for you much fadter than waiting for everyone else to get it.

He chose you for a reason. He chose you to heal. Its harder than he expected. He might do the work. But you can help by showing him how rather than telling him so.