My mom is draining and always wants more

[WinterStar]

My dad has NPD, and I'm not sure my mom has a PD, but she has zero boundaries, is always the innocent victim (she actively nurses naivety, like she really doesn't know super obvious things), she's got her guilt trips down cold, and she's generally just so nice that it's hard not to feel guilty. Plus, I've been trained to feel guilty, so there's that.

Anywho, my mom's mother passed and my mom gives me this big song and dance about wanting to have a close relationship with me, which I just ignored because although I believe that she wants that, she isn't capable of working through things. Shortly after my daughter's birthday party, she called and left a message. She was crying and said she wanted to talk because she thought that things weren't right between us. I've been incredibly upset with her many, many times in the past, but at the time, I was in a phase where I really wasn't. All of our recent interactions had gone relatively well, and I'd been nothing but nice to her, so this feeling she got wasn't coming from me.

I sent her an email and said I didn't have time to talk, but I could make time next week. I've been extremely busy the past year due to idk, having three kids and a new job with longer hours. She knows this. I prepped myself for the conversation I would have with her for a week. I was dreading it. Once we talked, I thought things went pretty well. She didn't get hysterical or say any truly outrageous things. But then, I had time to think about the whole thing, and man o man am I furious.

She was incredibly subtly complaining about how much time I've had to spend with her lately, so subtle that I didn't even notice. She told me that it's hard for her at the kids' birthday parties because she doesn't really get to visit with anyone -- my husband and I are busy and the kids are playing with their friends. Um, idk mom, but maybe the seven-year-old's birthday party isn't about you. We used to have her over for dinner after, and that must be what she's actually upset about. We stopped doing it this year because it was just too dang exhausting to throw a party for elementary school kids at our home and then have to cook for my mom with all of her weird food rules and she wouldn't leave until the girls' bedtime, so she was just THERE and there was no "off" until the chaos that is bedtime began.

At the recent party, I had said something in a joking way about when I was pregnant with my first daughter, and even though I asked her not to, my mom went and told her mother about it. She claimed it was an "accident," but it wasn't. I'm still incredibly upset about it because she stole my opportunity to tell my grandmother about becoming a mom myself, and that was horrible of her. I shouldn't have brought it up as if it were a joke because it really wasn't. Anyway, during our phone conversation she again justified telling my grandmother about it, had a whole host of excuses and some nonsense about how she doesn't really do that kind of thing. Funny, yes she does. I learned from that experience and a few others not to tell her things unless I wanted other people to hear about it. She used to say she's bad at keeping secrets. For someone who wants to have a closer relationship with me, she does an awful lot of justifying.

I know that what she really wanted out of the conversation was for me to reassure her that we're best buds and everything is fine. I prepped for that and did a great job not providing her with inaccurate reassurance. Go me! But I was left feeling like junk, and I know she felt better. The whole conversation was really about her. She wants x, y, z. No matter what I do, she always wants more. Never an inquiry as to what I might want or, you know, need. She even worked in some of her marital issues (TMI mom!). I didn't ask her not to do that. I didn't say anything about her justifying her telling my grandmother about my pregnancy. She says these things so quickly and nicely that I just cannot react in the moment. Even when I've anticipated things and tried to rehearse, it doesn't work. And sending a letter to her afterward generally elicits another phone call where she can tell me how many minutes/hours she was crying after she read it.

I'm just really not sure what to do next. Writing her seems pointless. Avoiding her for the short term is certainly necessary. But then what? Maybe no more phone convos? It's just always so draining dealing with her. The way she wants me to guess, anticipate and fill her needs. The passive aggressive way she deals with things when she's not happy. I've done a better job at taking her words at face value and moving on, but she still finds away to suck the life out of the room. Any advice or insight would be greatly appreciated.

[bloomie]

ElizabethAnne - Hi there.

It does sound very draining dealing with your mom's manipulative sickening sweet and awfully nice behaviors. I have an uPDmil who sounds very much like your mother with an ever so simple and sincere waif like persona that barely disguises a ravenous appetite for more, more, more and de facto entitlement to unreasonable levels of our time and attention.

I have yet to meet anyone who can manipulate others and get what they want quite as well as my uPDmil with her master class level waify ways. Her tactics are particularly covert and powerful and she uses shame and guilt, fault finding and nit picking like a champ to let her target of blame know they have displeased her.

All of that to say, I do get how exhausting and frustrating and toxic all of this is. How easily our spirits can be crushed by someone who appears so naive, soft, weak, helpless.

For me, what has helped is to take a sober assessment of just how close I can be in relationship to my uPDmil. If I allowed it she would "own" my time, attention, celebrations, friendships, resources. If I cooperated with it I would be answering to her for every choice I make, or that we make as a family. The conclusion I have come to is, I accept that I cannot change my uPDmil, that this is how she does relationships, but I can change the level of relationship I have with her.

Strengthening my boundaries - external over my time and resources what information I share with her, and internal over how I respond to her emotionally and how much headspace I give over to her, have helped a great deal.

It has not gone over well for that shift in level of contact and engagement between us to take place and there has been a great deal of push back, but I have been resolute. I cannot be my best self and be in close intimate relationship with my mil. 

An article that identifies this kind of covertly controlling behaviors that may be helpful to you as it has been for me in recognizing the co-opting of my personal business and attempted ownership of my life is found here:
https://psychcentral.com/blog/5-subtle-signs-your-mother-is-a-covert-narcissist/

A great book that was recommended to me here by another member, Practical, that was really eye opening and helpful is called: Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson PsyD‎

The toolbox above is somewhere I go repeatedly to remind myself of strategies in times like these.  Doing circles of intimacy work for ourselves where we choose carefully who will be in the most intimate relationships with has also led to some acceptance and clarity that I needed to get out of the Fear, Obligation, and Guilt that I was in with this relationship.

It seems a given that we would be in very close, intimate relationships with our parents, but for so many of us here our parents are not trustworthy enough to be in such close connection with because they refuse to take 100% responsibility for their choices and their words and adjust them when they cross a line. Autonomy and separateness are intolerable and a personal affront to my own uPDmil and there is no penetrating that thinking with logic and reason.

Your mother has broken trust with you knowingly treating your personal business and special news as her own and that echoes in your relationship to this day because it may represent the deeper issue that she behaves as if your business is her business. Your life is her life. And she is entitled to every single spec of your life.   

It is work to untangle ourselves from unhealthy soul ties with our parents and to find a level of contact and emotional engagement that works. For me, I was fine tuning that for awhile. Keep coming back and sharing for support and encouragement as you do!

[bloomie]

Popping back in to link to another thread around a similar subject that may be really eyeopening and helpful for you: https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=79914.0;topicseen

[Psuedonym]

Bloomie!

Ha, as I was writing this I got a notice that another reply had been posted and it was your link to my other post. I needed to say that is maybe the best description of this type of PD I have ever read: with an ever so simple and sincere waif like persona that barely disguises a ravenous appetite for more, more, more and de facto entitlement to unreasonable levels of our time and attention. I have yet to meet anyone who can manipulate others and get what they want quite as well as my uPDmil with her master class level waify ways. Her tactics are particularly covert and powerful and she uses shame and guilt, fault finding and nit picking like a champ to let her target of blame know they have displeased her.
All of that to say, I do get how exhausting and frustrating and toxic all of this is. How easily our spirits can be crushed by someone who appears so naive, soft, weak, helpless.

It's an amazing description, so thanks for that.

Another expert I've found amazingly insightful who I don't think a lot of people have heard of is Abdul Saad. His videos on covert narcissism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dynUwh1qu3o (I edited this because I think its a better one to start with) and a follow up on covert narcissism blew me away with their dead on-ness and really inspired my other post.

Only you can decide what your next step is but I do think that cognitive dissonance between victim/manipulator will make you feel both drained and super angry. I get it, unfortunately.

[WinterStar]

Bloomie,

Thank you so much for your response. I've worked hard to put up the correct level of relationship, but I find that it's not a constant. I am more relaxed when things are going well, and I'm happy with that. But, really, when I think things are going well (my boundaries aren't being violated, I'm no emotionally drained), my mom thinks things are going badly because I seem distant and am not caring for her emotional needs. It's upsetting to me to realize that when I am satisfied with how things are going, my mom will not be and will eventually bring it up, and then I will need a break from her because of it.

I still need work on not making more room in my headspace for her. That's a great idea for me to ponder. She can have a small room in there, but if she tries to take up a mansion, I can send her back to her room. I can even give her a smaller room or evict her.

I am buying the book you recommended. It's exactly the issue, my parents are incredibly emotionally immature. I think of it like I was raised by two half people, but 1/2 parent + 1/2 parent doesn't equal 1 parent. It's just a mess.

[WinterStar]

Psuedonym,

Thanks so much for the video. It's very good.

I'm still ruminating. My mom's behavior is definitely abusive. I don't think she has NPD. I think she's a person who's still in the fog. She never emotionally matured. I know our whole family dynamic involved guilting people into doing what you want. Just a lot of manipulation. It was always a game where you had to pretend other things were true to get what you wanted. And I participated too. I've made a lot of progress and am doing better at not getting sucked back in. She's made some small progress over time. Hopefully that will continue. I don't think she'll ever come Out of the FOG, though. I don't think she really wants to face reality.

[Andeza]

Emotionally immature reminds me of my uBPDM honestly. I like to say she stopped maturing around 14 or so. That was the age at which she and I butted heads like a couple of billy goats, just constantly. Took a long time for me to figure out it was because I had suddenly hit a level of maturity beyond her own. I would be very surprised if your M is just in the Fog... I'd encourage you to look at the behavior of those with BPD (specifically waifs). Just seems like your M's theme song is... was it Britney Spears' "I'm not that innocent."

[foobarred]

It does sound very draining dealing with your mom's manipulative sickening sweet and awfully nice behaviors. I have an uPDmil who sounds very much like your mother with an ever so simple and sincere waif like persona that barely disguises a ravenous appetite for more, more, more and de facto entitlement to unreasonable levels of our time and attention.

I have yet to meet anyone who can manipulate others and get what they want quite as well as my uPDmil with her master class level waify ways. Her tactics are particularly covert and powerful and she uses shame and guilt, fault finding and nit picking like a champ to let her target of blame know they have displeased her.

All of that to say, I do get how exhausting and frustrating and toxic all of this is. How easily our spirits can be crushed by someone who appears so naive, soft, weak, helpless.

That is probably the best description of my mother I've ever seen.

If I cooperated with it I would be answering to her for every choice I make, or that we make as a family.

And that describes my life.

And the conclusion I have come to is ... I cannot be my best self and be in close intimate relationship with my uPDmil.

And that's where I'm headed right now.  It's so affirming to see others struggling with the "sweet little old ladies" in their life.

[all4peace]

DH and I got good advice in therapy recently about how to deal with this type of behavior: Become a broken record. Only you can decide what the message would be.

[WomanInterrupted]

It does sound like you're dealing with an unBPD waif, like UnBPD Didi, and you're not kidding - it's *exhausting*  - as well as emotionally draining and infuriating, at the same time, because they're so damned *rigid* in being a helpless victim - but one who can still bark commands on occasion and expect instant obedience.   

Nothing was ever her fault - even the molehills she went out of her way to make into mountains, just to have something to complain about!   

And *she doesn't really want her problems solved or fixed* - if she had a cut on her hand and you handed her a bandage, she wouldn't put it on.  She'd sit there and look at it and expect you to put it on *for* her - and then she'll complain you didn't do it right and it'll be your fault if the cut gets infected.   

What worked with Didi was Medium Chill (in the toolbox) and the Broken Record A4P mentioned.

Her:  I need you to come over and  (laundry list of chores, plus she'll think of 40 more after you get there).

You:  I can't do that.

Her  (aghast):  Why NOT!?!?!?

You:  I just told you, I can't do that.   

You can't give them a *crumb* of information or JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain) or it'll be used against you - you'll be told that's not important, it can wait until she's done needing you, or you may be accused of *lying* - even if you can prove the car broke down and is in the shop! 

The only explanation I ever gave was, "I'm busy."   

With what?

"The usual - I don't want to bore you...."  "Oh you know, never a dull moment around here..."   

I never told her what I was busy with, so she couldn't use this one on me:  "Oh I wish SOMEBODY would clean my house/make my meals/do my laundry..."   

I was the "somebody" and that was her idea of "hinting" she was owed a slave.   

I wound up going from calling Didi daily to cutting back, over a period of time, to once every 3 weeks and she *hated it* - but I hated listening to her do 2+ hours about her aches, pains, those horrible neighbors, her rotten husband (unNPD Ray) and what he'd said/done this time, celebrity gossip like she freaking *knows* them, more about her aches and pains and a good half hour about the state of her poop, all while interjecting how lonely, bored and old she is.   

Those 2+ hours were now down to less than *five minutes* - and usually would end with her slamming the phone down in my ear, because *I was still malfunctioning by having BOUNDARIES.* 

But that was her problem, and not mine - I was NOT responsible for her happiness or any of her moods, and if she chose to be angry, that's not on me.

Another thing you can do with Waifs is starve them out by NOT being available to see to their needs (Medium  Chill:  I can't do that.  That doesn't work for me.).  You want to move from the very top of the list to the bottom of the list - you'd really be surprised how resourceful these people can be when their go-to person starts becoming completely unreliable, and just when you think they've run everybody off, they always
manage to find a *new* mark. 

Didi was stuck somewhere between the ages of 5 and 15 - she could act like a bratty toddler and have a meltdown over literally nothing or turn into a total bitchy mean girl, and get super-snide and catty.

It seems *so* obvious now, but I really wish I'd seen it when I was 20 - I'd surpassed Didi in my emotional age, and I *really* didn't want her as my perpetual *child.*   

And I think one of the most *important* things you can do is *start putting your needs, and the needs of your FOC FIRST.*   

I know...it sound strange, doesn't it?  But YOU MATTER!  YOUR FOC MATTERS!   

For example, your mother calls and wants you to do x, y, or z, but you had a nice day planned  with your SO, and you *could* postpone, but you just don't want to, so you say, "That doesn't work for me."   

That's when the molehill becomes a mountain and she flips out about what is she going to DO about x, y, or z!?!?!?!?   

Remain calm and *refer her to the professional closest associated with x, y, or z*:  her doctor, her pharmacist, an electrician, Merry Maids, Meals on Wheels, calling a cab or Uber, calling, "Got Junk?" for an estimate - you get the idea. 

When she wails that she just CAAAAAAAAAN'T, remain calm and say, "Well, then I really can't help you, but I'm sure you'll figure out something.  Goodbye." - end the call, and block her for the rest of the day.   

Starving out or managing a waif is HARD.  I personally find them the *most* annoying of the PD archetypes, because they're so damned needy and clingy - but it *can* be done with a lot of hard work, perseverance, sounding like a broken record, and putting up iron-clad *boundaries* that she can't wheedle her way around.

By the time unBPD Didi died, I hadn't actually been to hers in maybe 7-9 months (she lived 3 miles away) and didn't talk to her all that frequently  - she started having herself hospitalized for makeitiupitis instead, thinking THAT would motivate me, but all I did was *ignore it and go about my business.*   

Remember - it's YOUR life.  YOU make the rules - not your mother.   

[guitarman]

 

Be a lighthouse not a lifeboat.

Observe don't absorb.

guitarman X

[moglow]

"Be a lighthouse not a lifeboat." Love it - so succinct and yet powerful.

[WinterStar]

I would be very surprised if your M is just in the Fog... I'd encourage you to look at the behavior of those with BPD (specifically waifs).

Hello Andeza, I think you're right. She's too immature for this to be merely a fog issue. I looked into BPD waifs again, and it just doesn't sound exactly like her. She does use guilt and hyper sensitivity to get what she wants, and I've been in charge of her emotions for as long as I can remember, so that sounds right. But she doesn't make desperate attempts to gain attention, have poor impulse control or have a love/hate relationship with others. Maybe those aren't necessary?

Maybe I'm just getting caught up in the fact that she sounds nothing like WomanInterrupted's UnBPD Didi. My mother would never bark a command. She doesn't turn molehills into mountains; she's much more likely to see a mountain and claim it's a molehill. She's never snide and doesn't have tantrums.

She meets a lot of the criteria for DPD, so maybe that's it? Anybody have experience with that one?

[Andeza]

Personality disorders do exist on a spectrum, similar to autism. It's possible your M exists within one of the clusters as opposed to within one type. My M does try to make herself the center of attention all the flippin' time, mostly by talking nonstop and not letting anybody else get a word in. But even my M, despite similarities between WI and myself like being only children and being adopted, doesn't hold a candle to the infamous Didi. If she did, I'd be straight no contact.

I don't have experience with DPD, but my M horribly parentified and infantilized me growing up and I did wonder at first if that was actually what she had going on. Confusing combo really.

[Groundhog Day]

I can relate to what you are saying. The telephone conversation is all about getting what they want, manipulating, talking about themselves. My BPDm would drag these phone converstions for over an hour and when I would say "ok, I've got to go", she would reel me back with a subject that would get my interest and I would be stuck with another half hour on the phone. They sure know how to manipulate a conversation. But once you realize their repetetive scheme, you can divert and outsmart them. In my case, after M she caught on to it, she began to be psychotic, hysterical and to get our attention, she would say she wanted to "dieee". After mutliple calls from us to emergency to pick her up since she claim she was suicidal, they would not take her seriouly. They would admit her her 2 days and then release her. With those multiple, constant threat of suicide, she eliniated her children, grand children, siblings and friends. It was just a game for her to try and get attention and get what she wanted but it affected her relationships and backfired on her. To this day, she claims no wrong doing and blames what she has done or said on others but herself.

Hopefully your relationship does not go to this extent and your M realizes that her daughter and grand kids are number one in her life. It is not an easy task to deal with a M that acts like a child and is obsessed with gaining attention and pity from others. You have a young family and they need you to be healthy in mind and body. Don't let your M ruin that for you. Set bounderies and if it is not possible go LC.

Wishing you the best 

[goofycrumble]

When she wails that she just CAAAAAAAAAN'T, remain calm and say, "Well, then I really can't help you, but I'm sure you'll figure out something.  Goodbye." - end the call, and block her for the rest of the day.   

WI you crack me up 

[goofycrumble]

she's much more likely to see a mountain and claim it's a molehill. She's never snide and doesn't have tantrums. She meets a lot of the criteria for DPD, so maybe that's it? Anybody have experience with that one?

My empty-headed mum!

I'm going to try the tactic of becoming a waif but times 10 and see her reaction. I'm going to come up terrible ailments and doctors' appointments and enormous bills, job woes, "oh I've used all my money to help you oh what will I do now" lets see what her reaction will be hahaha