Gaslighting and Perceptions

Dinah-sore · June 14, 2019, 02:18:44 PM

This week has been super eye opening for me. I am seeing the extent to which gaslighting has affected my life. I have no confidence in any of my perceptions. Growing up my BPDm would rewrite history so often, and I would believe her and disbelieve myself. She still does this to me. Back at a funeral a few months ago, she was CRUEL to me. And when I later told her that she hurt me by behaving like she was angry with me, she gaslit me and told me that I perceived it all wrong. That she was not cruel to me, she told me that she was behaving loving to me, supportive, kind, and warm. I told her that I didn't believe her, she screamed at me and told me that I have to believe what she tells me to believe. When I said no, I have to believe what I saw, the poop hit the fan and she exploded.

This morning I was making my youngest a bagel, I knocked on the bathroom door (she was just brushing her teeth) to see if she wanted eggs with her bagel, and she yelled at me in really rude attitude way. So I told her I would not be spoken to that way, and gave her a consequence for that behavior (not severe, but firm). Later she came crying and told me that I was the one who was yelling at her, and she was the one trying to calmly explain her thoughts to me. It is so triggering for me, because even with my kids I doubt my perceptions. I asked the family, "Am I wrong? Did it happen how she said it?" because I don't trust myself at all. I was right, she was twisting it. But I don't want to gaslight her either. I told her what I saw, and I gave her permission to have her own perception of what happened. "It is okay if you disagree with me on what happened, but I am asking for respect in the future. I don't like being spoken to in that tone. Please be careful when you speak to me." And I told her she would still have a consequence. Is that okay parenting? I want her to be free to her own mind, but I do think she was twisting the situation to get out of the consequence which is what kids do right? But I don't want to be manipulated. And I still want to respect her right to her own mind, while establishing boundaries of respect.

Do you guys struggle with believing yourself? Even last weekend someone came up to me and was telling me that I had lost a lot of weight. She used words like "skinny." and asked what I did to loose the weight. Now my DH is always withholds any praise for me that doesn't motivate things that serve him. Other people have mentioned that I have lost weight and he acts like I haven't. Even though the scale says I have, and my clothes don't fit anymore. I wanted to see if he would withhold from me again so I told him what she said to see what he would say. I told him that this woman commented on my weight loss, and said I look like I lost weight and even used the word "skinny." There was an awkward silence, then he said, "How weird.." More awkward silence. The he said, "hmm. I don't know....." More awkward silence. I felt the pressure to say, "She must not remember what I look like. she must be wrong." What he is saying, by not saying much and saying that is that I haven't lost weight. Or that at least I don't look like I have. It is okay, I am not trying to lose weight really. But trying to be healthy and more active to take care of myself. But when he acts like this it messes with my head. To the point where I even wondered, "Did this woman really say that to me, or did I imagine that." I not only doubted that she was right, I even doubted that the conversation took place at all. That moment when I doubted the conversation really shocked me and I thought that it is so scary that my mind is so easily swayed.

I am trying so hard to not need validation from others. To not need to ask my family, "Did I yell at my DD when I asked her if she wanted eggs with her bagel?" To not need to think, "Did that really happen?" or "Did so and so really say that to me?" or "Is the scale lying?" or "Was my BPDm really nice to me at the funeral?" I mean. Wow. How did I get through so many years of life so ready to abandon my own eyes and ears for people who don't want to build me up or encourage me, people who want to be hurtful to me and then act like it never happened.

I turned my brain off as a kid to survive. I replaced all of my thoughts, ideas, perceptions with my BPDm's for so long. I loved who she told me to love, I was angry at who she told me to be angry at, if we got in an argument, I would always believe her side of it. Now I see that it affects every relationship I have on the planet. Even with my kids.

I mean, with my mom it was so bad that she would gaslight me on things that weren't even facts, but feelings. If she FELT like I was thinking something, to her it was true. I would get in trouble for things she said I was thinking. She would scream at me, "You think x,y, and z." And I wouldn't even have been thinking that, but then I would believe her, and think, "Was I? I didn't even know I was. Good thing she told me." and I would apologize for crap that she was just making up in her head. She does this with everybody.

How have you guys healed from these effects of gaslighting? How do you trust your own perceptions? How do you know you are not wrong? How do you not feel the need for external validation, or someone telling you, "You aren't wrong. I saw what happened. You saw it right." I feel like I need permission to believe myself.

Andeza · June 14, 2019, 02:52:21 PM

Permission to believe yourself: granted.

Other people are merely trying to take away that instinctual right by twisting the facts to benefit them in some way. And yes, kids do it. I was a pro at it, but kinda had to be to survive. My M would tell me what kind of attitude I had. My resting face was some kind of "resting bad attitude face" in her eyes and so I got called out, and punished, for having a bad attitude even if I was just thinking about the weather, or a book I was going to read, or some other equally innocuous thing.

I don't really forget how things go down... So every time M tries to gaslight me I know better. Whenever coworkers said one thing, and then a month later turned it around and said another, I knew I was being played. The higher the stress of the situation, the better my memory gets. So no PD's get a free pass around me and it annoys them to no end.

bloomie · June 14, 2019, 03:02:33 PM

Dinah-sore - Finding a stable self perception and solid ground where we trust our discernment, good sense, and decisions around the behaviors of others when we have been raised to doubt every single thing and distrust ourselves is possible! I want you to know it is possible and that you are doing exactly what you need to do to get there.

It is perfectly normal ime for smart children to find that soft underbelly and attempt to "go there" when confronted with their poor choices by their mom and it is ours to fortify ourselves and develop resilience and a willingness to make decisions and develop boundaries and standards for how we will/will not be treated even if/when others do not agree with us. Your listening to your child's differing opinion and still setting limits on disrespectful tones of voice is mature, grounded, motherly love. Bravo!

It has helped me a lot to set a boundary for myself that I will not check in with others who do not have my best interest at heart or are too close to the situation around the right/wrongness of my perceptions because for me, with my FOO conditioning and my innate tendency to be easily shamed, gas lit and preoccupied with relationships, doing so does not serve me well. I had to make it an excercise in growth to begin to trust myself to sort through my perceptions and the decisions I make from them. And... now here is the kicker... to possibly be wrong and trust that it is not the end of the world.

The work of Pete Walker around the shrinking the inner critic has also been really helpful. Here is a link to more info: http://pete-walker.com/shrinkingInnerCritic.htm

Quote...In extremely rejecting families, the child eventually comes to believe that even her normal needs, preferences, feelings and boundaries are dangerous imperfections – justifiable reasons for punishment and/or abandonment. In the worst case scenarios - where parents use children's words as ammunition against them - the mere impulse to speak sometimes triggers intense feelings of panic.

A T suggested giving that inner critical voice a name so that you can speak back to it and tell it to shut up when it is speaking lies and distortions over your life.

It's time to believe the scale and have some fun and buy some new clothes that fit and don't give anyone else power over that truth!

You are further along than you think in all of this.

Cat of the Canals · June 14, 2019, 03:04:12 PM

My unPD mom has a way of being negative/critical/rude in a way that sounds like teasing or joking around. I've realized lately that I've sort of been gaslighting myself for years by constantly telling myself, "But she didn't really MEAN it that way."

The thing is, it doesn't matter if she's "only joking" or not. It matters how it FEELS.

So that's what I've been refocusing on. Not the specific words or "the way" she said it or how she might have meant it, but how the interaction made me feel. If the words felt bad, THEY FELT BAD, and I know it.

Take the incident with your mom at the funeral: you know she said something cruel, because you FELT IT.

Your daughter snapped at you? You felt it. (Which is why you immediately corrected the behavior.)

The woman that complimented you? You felt that, too, right? Only this time it was a good feeling. Next time, forget your husband's opinion and bask in that good feeling.

It was real because you felt it.

Call Me Cordelia · June 14, 2019, 03:09:53 PM

Oh, Dinah, I have exactly the same thing happen with my kids. I do often go to my DH and say, "Did you see this happen too? Was I being unfair?" My eldest in particular is very prone to denying what just happened, and part of me wonders if I actually allowed that to work on me before coming Out of the FOG and he's just now having to face his actions. But anyway, no more. This morning, he accused his brother of doing EXACTLY what he just did to him. Only it was ok when DS1 did it, and super super frustrating and mean when DS2 did it back.

I mean, when DS1 didn't do it.

I ended up acting out for DS1 what I saw happen, mimicking his tone of voice. DS1 completely denied it still, despite three other witnesses confirming what I saw. I told him that I had to act according to what I know happened, and gave him an appropriate consequence. Later he did give a real apology and admitted that he did in fact tease his brother first.

But man it's exhausting! I think just speaking out loud, "This is what I saw..." is powerful for me. Rehearsing my narrative and accepting it before letting potential gaslighters give their input. And of course getting rid of known gaslighters helped a lot for me.

With stuff like people commenting on your weight loss, could you keep a journal of those instances? And incidences of abuse? My journal saved me after that final visit with my MIL. I wrote down just about every interaction I had with her that week. Looking back over it it was so easy to see all the patterns of everything I had been telling DH about and he swept under the rug. When it was all written down, in close to real time, many conversations he heard himself, it was impossible to deny it anymore and let the abuse amnesia set in.

I can't believe your M explicitly denied your right to your own use of your eyes and ears and brain like that. That is next level abuse.

Call Me Cordelia · June 14, 2019, 03:15:08 PM

I do believe you! Really!

It is so easy to just ignore things like that happening because they MAKE NO SENSE. It's so much more comfortable to suppose the problem must be us, especially since that's what we've been told our whole lives. That's a narrative that's much easier to accept. But your mom saying you have to trust what she tells you over your own two eyes... that's crazy. And if mom is crazy... well your inner child is gonna freak the heck out. But you're an adult now and it's okay to let that happen. Truly, it's okay and safe and GOOD to step into the light of reality. You can navigate this world.

Amadahy · June 14, 2019, 05:09:31 PM

My middle son would rather argue than breathe and has accused me of all manner of "you yelled at me!" Well, I used to wilt (flash back actually) until I decided to stand firm. I give a consequence and walk away. Being the decent human he is, I always get an apology. But, exhausting? Oh hell yes.

CONGRATULATIONS on your weight loss! (I'd like to be part of that club!)

Hugs and blessings ~~~

WomanInterrupted · June 15, 2019, 12:11:48 AM

Congratulations on the weight loss!

If somebody is telling you that you look good - believe them.

The ONLY things I've found that work on gaslighting are:

1. KNOW the truth. YOU are not automatically wrong. Your mind IS reliable. You CAN remember things as they happened. You do NOT mis-remember or interpret things in the wrong way. Your memory of the event, as it happened, is unimpeachable - often because it touched a raw, angry nerve (or a hurtful or painful one) and we don't forget that stuff easily.

That's the most important thing - you're not wrong. Your mind CAN be trusted. Become *unshakable* in that belief - I know what I saw and heard, and I am NOT going to be told it didn't happen that way!!

It was one of the earliest lessons I learned with unBPD Didi and unNPD Ray, who'd *blame me* for things that weren't even my fault, or they'd "joke" at my expense, and it *hurt.*

That's why so many of us here are big proponents of *truth* and *justice* - because we had neither, and were told if only we shaped up, were better, weren't so slow or stupid, or *obeyed* a little bit better, we wouldn't have gotten into trouble - when there WAS no trouble and the situation was *manipulated* to leave us at a constant disadvantage - and doubting our own memories.

2. Medium Chill ALL THE WAY, BABY! - while doing a slow, internal burn at the LIE you've been told.

Yes - I wouldn't do *anything* other than Medium Chill at this point because you've seen what trying to state the truth gets you - she FREAKS, can't handle it and *insists you must believe her version of events* - when it is WRONG and makes you out to be the bad-guy, and herself smelling like roses - as usual.

Put your mom on a *strict* Information Diet, and tell her nothing of how she made you feel, or *anything*. From now on, I'd treat her like a stranger you just met at bus stop and if she doesn't like it - too bad.

It's for your own self-preservation - and self-respect!

3. Call her out on it and watch World War III break out, complete with the lie, "You HAVE to believe me!"

When somebody says THAT to you, they are LYING.

I don't recommend option 3 - it comes with too much damage, as you've found out. Calling an unBPD person on their lies or mistreatment only gets you more of the same, but worse.

I recommend option 2 or 4:

4. Cutting contact further - LC, VLC, or NC - which is the ultimate defense tool

I suggest it because of what happened with your DD: children learn what they see, and DD has learned grandma bullies you by making you believe something different happened, so she thought she'd give it a try and see if it worked - it did NOT, thankfully.

Don't be surprised if your DD pulls out other tricks from grandma's never-ending nasty bag of them, because *she's seen and experienced them all her life and knows it's OKAY to treat you with DISRESPECT.*

Your DD is a teen, and teens rebel and defy - it's in their nature to buck the norm, and try to get away with proverbial murder.

Your DD is at the stage she's trying to figure out what works - and I'm glad she learned gaslighting you *won't work.* It's a nasty thing to do to others - as most of us here know.

But DD IS watching grandma work *you* - and she's seeing what works and what doesn't. No, she doesn't like your mom much, but the way your mom treats others *affects her, deeply* and she can't help but wonder, "If I act like that, will I get my way all the time? Is that how I win at life?"

That's a frightening thought, isn't it?

If I had kids, I'd rather they had no grandmother than a bad one - and one who just won't stop inflicting damage, any way she can, because she MUST be right, at all cost - and blameless, at the same time.

Your mom is so toxic, I'm surprised Didi hasn't kicked up a stink from beyond the grave, wanting lessons!

Please - protect yourself. You are an intelligent woman who has an *impeccable* memory of events. Please don't doubt yourself. Smile at that face you see when you brush your teeth and tell her you KNOW your memories aren't flawed - these things DID happen the way you remember.

And your mom is just working her own agenda, which is to *always* crush you under her heel, and make you feel small, frightened, and helpless - like you felt when you were a girl and the all-knowing, all-seeing MOTHER could read your mind and take away the things you hold dearest.

You are not that little girl. You're an *adult* who is just *starting* to realize how toxic and damaging this relationship really is.

Keep questioning, Dinah Sore. The more you question, the more answers come - which lead to more questions, and often more answers.

Our lives are like onions, when we grow up on Planet PD - we peel away one layer and find yet another, and another and *another* layer of trauma and self-doubt that *shouldn't have been ours to bear, in the first place.*

You are NOT the flawed person your mother wants you to think you are. That's *projection* - pure and simple. She knows you know that, and she's trying to do anything and everything in her power to make you forget it - when you never will.

TriedTooHard · June 15, 2019, 04:43:32 AM

How did I know I was not wrong? I found out about cognitive dissonance and gave myself a pass for experiencing it. At first, it was really scary for me to face that, because I have a sibling that witnessed the same horrible acts of abuse that the rest of us did, but to this day pretends they didn't happen. She knows they happened, she just comes up with a different story to justify it each time she wants to have contact with the rest of us siblings. Years ago, she flat out denied they ever happened, until she learned that we would not put up with it. I guess she was on her way to becoming a gas-lighter as well. I didn't want to become one myself, but I found it safe to address the issue of cognitive dissonance. The first set of conflicting beliefs that a lot of us face in childhood is "mommy loves me" versus "mommy is showing that she doesn't love me." For our survival, we need to believe she loved us! Its very hard to address that as we become more aware.

Keep up the good work. What you're doing will help you become sure of your own beliefs and observations.

I agree with how you handled DD. Kids need to learn. Its scary to watch your child going through a developmental process, and realize your parent is still stuck in that same stage, or maybe even an earlier stage, than your child. Your awareness of the situation will help DD get through her stages. You don't have to be perfect.

Congratulations on your weight loss! I too was brought up to not trust the scale. Whenever the scale showed me any success, my uNPDm would sniff that something was wrong with it. Your clothes, plus the outsider's observation, are showing you the truth.

all4peace · June 15, 2019, 09:10:07 AM

This is such an important conversation, and I would imagine that many of us here face this, whether we have been able to put words to it or not.

After years of therapy, I think I'm in a place of "holding onto things loosely." By this I mean that my perception matters and counts, and other people's perception matters and counts. I'm trying to learn that often there's not The Truth or The Right Way.

I really love how you handled it with your daughter. Your DD was likely rude, and she likely felt that you were the one being upset, and you can both have valid viewpoints. I think you handled it wonderfully. You're holding her accountable for her behavior, acknowledging that she may not see it the same way as you, and yet holding boundaries and letting her speak at the same time. I think that's brilliant.

Quite often I've used the line "Let's both pay attention." If a family member of mine sees things one clear way, and I see them another totally different way, then I ask if we can both simply pay attention for a few days or weeks to see if we can observe a pattern over time. It takes a lot of the fight out of the situation and invites both of us to open our hearts and minds to come to a more clear place.

Truly, I think you are a really great mom. You have great instincts and even though you're doubting yourself I inevitably love the conclusions you have come to. Trust those instincts! You're doing amazing!

TwentyTwenty · June 16, 2019, 12:20:19 AM

My $.02...... be careful. If you keep countering a known liars story, they will have no choice but to isolate your encounters where no one will be around to validate the truth of the matter. Then, you are at their mercy, and will likely be manufactured into an "elder abuser".

Dinah-sore · June 28, 2019, 04:23:25 PM

This is just a weird update. You know how my DH acted like it was so weird that someone would tell me that I looked like I lost a lot of weight? Well, we were shopping on the two days he was back in town this month. I was looking at a pair of pants, but I didn't end up buying any because they didn't have my size. But DH was standing next to me as I was sorting through the sizes. And I mentioned how they don't have my size, so I might get a larger pair and wear them loose. He said, "Don't buy bigger, try the smaller size down. It is a waste of money to get something too big for you, and you have lost weight."

For a second I almost didn't realize what happened. But then I stopped sorting through the clothes and looked at him and said, "What did you say, babe?"
He said, "I don't want to waste money on clothes that are too big for you." I pressed, "What else?" He then laughed and said, "Oh, how you lost weight?" I said, "Yeah." Then he laughed more and said, "Oh you got upset with me last time, when you said that person told you you lost weight." and I said, "I wasn't upset, but you acted like it was crazy, and now you just said it."

Then he went on and on about how he didn't act like I was crazy, and how he KNEW I was mad at him. Then he said that he "always" tells me that I look like I lost weight. I almost died, because I would know. I literally have never ever ever heard him say that. That is why I was so shocked when he said it this time. The WHOLE conversation turned into an accusation about me getting mad at him back when that scenario happened. I don't know if I was "mad" because I am still trying to feel things, but I do know that I was aware that he was withholding on purpose. I didn't act mad. I just didn't stop the awkward pause by filling it in with codependent phrases that smooth things over. And the fact that he zeroed in on that conversation means that it stuck out to him too. He must have known that it got to me. Or was aware of how I was responding to him as he acted like "that's so weird that she would say that?" But I wasn't at all mean, no upset faces, no eye roll, I just kept doing what I was doing. So why does he get to tell me that I was mad? I was confused. I was hurt. I was also validated, because I had a feeling he would behave that way, and he did. I don't think I deserve that. But I don't know if I was "mad"--that sounds jr. high. I didn't "need" him to tell me I lost weight, I just wondered if he would.

the thing is, I am not taking this incident as positive. I don't think, "See, he thinks I lost weight. I feel special now. Everything is okay now." Because I don't care that I even lost the weight. I don't feel more valuable just because I am down a few pounds. I feel a little upset though because the ONLY reason he admitted that I did lose weight is because he is CHEAP, and didn't want to waste money. LOL. He cared about the money, more than anything. And even when I asked him about it, he turned it around on me, and I felt like I was the one who should be on the defensive, for whether or not I was upset that he refused to say anything positive regarding what that woman told me.