Cause and effect

[Call Me Cordelia]

The cause and effect thing.

Here's how it happened with me:

"I was really hurt when you insulted the food I served. In fact I made a huge effort to accommodate you, when I actually would have really appreciated and hoped for some support. I have a lot of serious things to deal with right now so I need a break. Call you when I'm ready."

Cue calling incessantly and sending poison pen letters. We never said that, we have so much stress ourselves, blah blah blah. We'll definitely visit at Christmastime.

All ignored.

More letters, trashed unread. Calls and texts are blocked. Smear campaign: "Cordelia's cupboards are bare!!! I'm Worried for those children!!!"

Still no response. I have a mandated reporter in my house regularly to give services to one of my kids.  She sees us at lunchtime every week. NF sees us never. But see statement #1... this is supposed to bring me back how???

"Cordelia is absolutely insane!!! I'm seriously worried for her mental health. What she did to us is so WRONG! I am her father! My mother is horrible to me but I put up with all of it! But I'm not putting up with being cut off!"  Blame shame blame shame!



At a year NC: Sends in FM to try to help him see my kids behind my back.

Visit lawyer. Send cease and desist. We're done.

There's a very clear deterioration here and even this very condensed series of events make it very clear why this relationship is at the point of no return. But I'm positive it's all still my fault in my Nparents' minds. No concept of boundaries or consequences whatsoever. See the part about how Saint NF takes it from his NM.  That's the closest to self-awareness and awareness of my position we're probably gonna get. But of course he's always said he is NOTHING like his parents. Which makes it true. 

Babies start understanding cause and effect around 4 months old. This is more complex than say, a ball rolling on a table will fall. But what went wrong here???? It truly boggles the mind that pwPDs simply will never understand that abusing people pushes them away, and they will always do more of the same trying to force different results.

[PeanutButter]

I am sooo angry FOR you call me Cordelia! I was also smeared with accusations my child was going hungry so called proof being he was nornal weight compared to the other grandchildren who were over weight. I was just thinking about this and told my husband how blown my mind is every time even after i continue to hear stories of this same or very similar destruction of relationship with adult children of PD parents. IME the repeating theme is "we are so hurt but AC has no right to be hurt even if we did something hurtful. Although we didnt do anything hurtful and she is mean/unstable lashing out to hurt us purposefully" (projection) while they harrass AC and smear to anyone/everyone. I dont think I will ever understand why and it is so painful to realize that there will not be any amount of reasoning that will change that state of mind they operate from. Hugs to you. I am proud of your strength in standing up to the abuse to protect you and yours. Great Job! All of you here in this community are my role models. Thank you for sharing your experiences it is helpful to me and im sure others as well.

[athene1399]

Cordelia,

I am very sorry you had to go through this, but I am proud of you for sticking with your boundaries. All you asked for what space and the opposite happened. I also agree that NF's behavior enforces why you are NC instead of helping him to see you again. The sad thing is he sees the opposite. He thinks his behavior is helping/should change your mind. That's the crux of the issue IMO. He sees himself as blameless. And just because he puts up with his "horrible M" doesn't mean you have to do the same for him. It's very difficult to cut through their defense mechanisms. They can only feel their feelings and can't see anything from our point of view.  And as you enforce your boundaries, NF's behavior escalates as he feels discarded and cut off (or whatever his reason is). What he can't see is that is his issue to deal with and not yours. He doesn't want to change; he wants you t put up with his abuse IMO. That's part of it too; their issues are reflected on us and they relive what their parents did to them through us. I've seen how M treated me and GM treated her and wonder how far back it goes. Has this been going on for hundreds of years before we decided to break the cycle?

Thank you for sharing. Your strength is inspiring.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Peanut Butter, thank you for your kind words. I'm glad you found my post helpful. I'm feeling really sad after writing this because it's so obvious now that I never had the smallest chance of having anything close to a healthy relationship with my parents. It was always hopeless.

I'm so sorry you too experienced unfounded accusations of neglecting your child. I think even that can be considered projection. Not to mention a pretty instant dealbreaker.

It's also amazing that the concept that not everyone needs to be the same as them doesn't penetrate their skulls. I am in fact an excellent cook and provide delicious and healthy meals to my family daily. But my parents are junk food hoarders and compulsive eaters. My experience with them has always been if there was any space at all in the fridge, there was nothing to eat in the house. Time to go to McDonalds. But my mom can't understand why she can't lose weight... she never eats the bun. Must be her thyroid. NB: I was suffering with thyroid disease at the time.

But anyway, the point is I don't operate that way, so I am always and forever Wrong. Disagreement or diversity can never be tolerated. We must be assimilated. We have to escape to save ourselves.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Thank you Athene. I think you are spot on, with absolutely everything you wrote. So very well said. Seriously, I'm crying.

[LemonLime]

Cordelia


I am going through something nearly identical with my very high-functioning uBP sib.   Not the dramatic and outright damaging behavior that you have had to put up with.  Rather, it's largely unspoken in my case.   Subtle and sophisticated smearing and projecting.  But the effect on me is similar to what you are experiencing.  It's absolutely heartbreaking to realize that these people live in a parallel universe, immune to logic.   Because with no logic, there is no chance of a healthy relationship.   They simply are not playing Life by the same rules as we are.   And no amount of flexibility on our part can make up for that, because in the process of acommodating them we would be destroyed by them.    It's a no-win.   The only  way to win the game is to not play (said by someone brilliant on this board, but I can't remember who) 

[Call Me Cordelia]

Thanks, Kat. "They are simply not playing Life by the same rules we are." How very true. I'm so glad you see it with your sibling and are not wondering whether you are crazy. But very sorry you relate.

[Rose1]

My bil (who along with my sister look after my 90 year old pdm) said to me recently that they see things differently to me. They see a old lady who is forever saddened by her lack of relationship with 2 of her children.

I told him that I see someone who never misses an opportunity to stick the boot in and is big on silent treatment. I know she is very careful to never say anything slanderous in Front of him (and also lowers her voice in front of my dh because he's deaf and she can whisper to me and he won't hear it. She thinks she has him snowed but he knows exactly what she is doing).
Then my bil said she has no concept of cause and effect. I think my bil is going through some cognitive dissonance himself because he knows me too and knows I dont make stuff up. Plus they're trying to deal with her without it damaging them.

But the cause and effect thing threw me. In a way hes right. But we were brought up being taught cause and effect. "You catch more flies with honey, you must treat people as you wish to be treated etc". So I'm thinking she must know the consequences of bad behaviour, she taught us that.

However she behaves as if she doesnt. She has done the smear me about my kids stuff, including how my disabled daughter is. I can't discuss anything with her because it turns into "what are you doing to her?" Which, as you know is very painful and not relationship building at all. To me it seems she vents her stuff, is angry because she couldn't take my kids away from me and have a second shot at mother of the millennium. And just says what she feels like, no matter what. But carefully so she's not overheard. My sister did last time and called her on it. Actually she was really shocked. But I think they suffer from abuse amnesia and hearing the crap day in day out. Probably tune out.

So I'm at a loss. And I agree this is a deal breaker but I've put up with it for years, another thing I cant figure out. I'm extra LLLLC so perhaps I'm doing my usual avoidant thing. And I'm on silent treat at the moment.

She has gotten worse as she's aged but was always like that to some extent.  Lost in the past with her memories of when her children were babies, compliant and cute. At 65 I guess I dont fit into that category anymore😂.

I havent been compliant and cute since I was 6 apparently. Good chance. She stopped making sense to me much younger than that and I questioned her which she certainty hasn't liked.

She gaslights a lot. Denies and bad mouths. But can't seem to see or care what the consequences are. Guess my bil isn't the only one with cognitive dissonance, I have it a lot too.

Will be seeing her later on this year (I livea long way away) and I've already decided I won't be going into her house with the photos of my exh. My daughter can't manage the clutter and I was just going to say the environment was  unsuitable and  she could make of that what she wants. Were not staying near her, will be attending a family event that she, may or may not attend. And it might well be the last time I see her. Im assuming there will be some sort of blow up because she spends weeks arranging the perfect scenario in her head, not communicating it and then getting upset because it doesn't suit.
I guess I'm just going to have to not break my boundaries and try to second guess her.

Thankfully she treats my sister much better than she treats me although is having abuse moments with her now too. My sister has better boundaries. I'm going to have to make sure I don't get sucked in. Because I don't really believe she doesn't understand cause and effect. I think she knows what she's doing but expects me to put up with it.

Interesting point from someone else about not letting yourself be alone with them because it could turn into accusations of elder abuse. I've thought that for a while but then second guess myself. What is it with them? There's no way I would treat my adult daughters that way.

Anyway, very thought provoking. I will think on this more.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Thank you for sharing, Rose. I am horrified that she wanted to take your kids from you. I'm glad you aren't going to her house this time, and I hope you can grey rock her like a boss if you do run into M.

As for her sadness at lack of "relationship," I think we both know her definition of that word is something else. So it might be true, but not the same way you or I would mean it if we had an estranged child.

I saw your post last night and I've been thinking it over. I think what Kat wrote is key: They do understand cause and effect. For the rest of us. They understand those rules and manipulate our predictable adherence to them. Input gift, output phone call, for example. Input complaint, output offer of help. But they themselves are above the rules and don't expect the usual things to apply to them by some magic of their specialness. So if we give a gift, it very well might be ignored or belittled. But if there is no gift for them next year, . We've all seen this dynamic, the belief that boundaries and consequences do not apply to them. So they understand cause and effect, but they are playing Life by completely different rules as the rest of us. And that's what the toolbox is for. Best of luck to you!

[Rose1]

Thank you. I think you're right. Cause and effect does not apply. I want, I get. If necessary I'll be obnoxious to get it.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Right. But if I have to be obnoxious to Rose, it's Rose's fault for not giving me what I want and therefore deserve in the first place!

[Rose1]

Yes there's always a justification. My pdm not so much to my face. My exbpdh very much so. You made me do it.

Pdm is very quick to call foul if I disagree with her and a cuses me of giving her a mouthful. This seems to be specific to me as my sister can tell her off and has even received an apology. Thus is one of the reasons I had trouble identifying it as pd until recently.  It seemed more like a personal attack.

She doesnt fit any type of pd but has traits of ocpd I found out recently. But maybe my bil is correct in that she can't understand that treating me like she does has pretty much caused the vvvlc. I do think she has some self awareness. She can see it at the time with my sister and bil (who has spent some time explaining to her what the problem is) but a couple of days later it's like she's never had the conversation and its all reset back to default. Very strange.