Wow, we really got an opportunity to practice answering the kids' questions

[Penny Lane]

So I guess DSS has really been storing up a lot of frustration and confusion because it all just came pouring out in a barrage of questions about his parents, their arrangement, money and why his mom tells him different things than his dad.

So it sounds like it came out of a conversation we had had about why the kids aren't signed up for any lessons on their mom's time. This was a couple weeks ago - at the time we told them that H had asked her if she wanted him to sign them up on her time as well as his, and she never answered him. So H signed them up to make sure they got into lessons but she could always (and still can!) sign them up on her days as well.

He's also been asking recently about money - who pays for what, what the arrangement is, etc. We'd both separately and together told him "each parent is supposed to pay for half, but you don't need to worry about that because we're happy to make sure we can pay for the stuff you need."

I guess SS must have asked her about it or it came up because he said that she told him that H didn't sign the kids up on her days and that's why they aren't going on her days. SS says he said "well then you shouldn't have to pay for it" and she said "yeah" and trailed off. Also at some point he got the impression, or she explicitly told him, that she has paid for half of lessons, which is also not true. (This came out kind of at the end of the conversation).

So we didn't know this yesterday when the questions started: Who pays for lessons, why isn't he in more lessons, can he go on mom's time, why can't H sign him up on mom's time.

Finally H told him: Each parent is supposed to pay for half. Your mom has paid for half of some but not all of the stuff. But, it's very important that you can continue these lessons, so we make sure to budget for it. (We briefly explained budgeting and how we don't buy a lot of new things or go out to dinner a lot but that allows us to pay for things like lessons and trips, which are more important to us). He also said, I asked your mom if she wanted me to sign you up on her time, and I followed up later and told her how much you love the lessons and how I thought you would love it if she would sign you up on her time too. She didn't answer me. We further explained that it's really not appropriate for H to sign him up for lessons on his mom's time without her permission - that wouldn't be respectful to her and the plans she makes for the kids.

He also kept insisting that he wanted to see communication between BM and H. He's been doing this thing lately where when H has to send her a message, SS won't leave the room, wants to hear our discussion and tries to read the message. Last night he said he feels like he's in the dark about this stuff and he really wants to know. I tried to channel Arkhangelsk (thank you!) by telling him that he can read those messages when he's older, but for now they are private messages that he shouldn't worry about. I also told him that I know his dad always tries to be productive and do what's best for him, and the reason we discuss what he's going to say is so that he doesn't inadvertently say something in a way that sounds aggressive or mean. And finally I told him a lot of the messages are boring: Here's what the doctor said, where are the kids going to be on the vacation, etc.

At one point we kind of pressed DSS about where the questions were coming from and he finally said "It's just confusing because mom and dad say such different things." That felt like a huge breakthrough because we know she is lying to the kids but usually they don't acknowledge the discrepancy. But it also really broke my heart because I know how hard it is for them and there's really nothing they can do. So I said "yeah, I get frustrated too, I have a really hard time understanding why your parents come away from an interaction with such different understandings of what happened." H explained that that's why he's so firm on insisting that they communicate in writing - that there's less room for misunderstanding.

Interestingly, DSS made a connection to an incident a couple weeks ago - DH had gone to pick up the kids and BM came out and pounded on his window wanting to talk about something. Instead of engaging H told her to email him. I guess afterward DSS asked why he didn't just talk to herand H just said "well those are the rules we agreed to." And I got the sense that SS wasn't satisfied with that answer.

Well last night he said "oh so that's why you didn't talk to mom that day she was knocking on your window?" And I said, "when your parents have conversations at pickups do you think they are mostly productive or mostly unhelpful?" and he said unhelpful. (Duh! Mostly it seems like they entail her screaming at H and occasionally the kids.) And I said, "your dad really wants the conversations to be productive and to focus on what's best for you, and it seems like doing it in writing allows for that. It also lets him think through how he can say what he wants to say in the most productive way possible."

THEN DSD8 pipes up: "Mom says dad doesn't answer her questions." I said, "well what I've seen is that sometimes your mom wants an answer faster than your dad has one. Sometimes he needs a little time to think about it, or he doesn't know right away. And sometimes your mom says something that there's really no way to answer it. But I will tell you that your dad gives your mom all the information she needs about what happens over here. It's really important to me that he do that - and it's important to him too."

There was some other stuff but this is turning into a novel already and I think you get the gist. We ended by telling him that we're proud of him, we're sorry that he's dealing with this, that he can ask us anything and we will tell him the truth, that if there's anything we can do to make it easier please tell us, and that we think he has very good judgment and will be able to sort things out in a way that makes sense.

So, I am totally wiped out emotionally from all that. It was tough to hear what they're going through. I think overall it's a really good sign that he's asking these questions and using his critical thinking skills. It also sounds like his gut is telling him that what his mom says doesn't seem right, and he's following up on that. Those are exactly the things we've been trying to instill in him for years.

Also, thanks to everyone on the board for the recent discussions about how to talk to the kids on this stuff. Several times I heard myself saying things in a way that someone on here suggested in a previous thread. I really don't think I would've been nearly as prepared for it otherwise.

[Stepping lightly]

Wow- what a great conversation!  You guys did a great job explaining things without throwing BM under the bus!  It is interesting when they make the connections, but sadly BM will work to reverse some of the enlightenment.  All you can do is continue being consistent and fair.

[Penny Lane]

Thank you! Objectively I think it went really well - DSS was receptive and really opened up. I think we were able to plant some seeds that will lead to even healthier behaviors on his part.

By the way SL I really took to heart your advice in a previous thread to say something like "I don't know why your mom chose to do that." So simple, so succinct and it really explains the issue! I think it was very effective. Thank you!!!

Despite what I think was a good outcome I don't FEEL good. I've been kind of processing it all day and I realized - by us correcting the untruths, it's going to become clear to the kids that their mom is not caring for them and is not prioritizing them. That is such a sad thing to realize and there's nothing we can do to make it better. She's really forcing the issue by lying to the kids and saying it's dad's fault. Basically H (and I) had to choose between letting DSS believe that H somehow sabotaged his ability to take lessons on his mom's time, or to let him know that she is choosing to not sign him up for lessons. Let him believe that his dad is taking all of his mom's money, or let him know that his mom is just choosing to spend her money on something other than him. So it's no choice at all, but it's really heartbreaking to have to watch him learn this stuff.

Also very interestingly, we'd had an incident earlier in the day where DSS told H that I had said something (you can do X to your sister because she does it to you) that I had not said (what I said was, if you and your sister agree that it's ok, you can both do it but it sounds like neither one of you likes it). When I got home SS asked me if I had said the thing. I clarified. And he got really emotional, really went after DH for not believing him when, he claimed, he was correct all along. He was VERY upset to not be believed. We went around and around with him on this - no, that's not what I said, no, H didn't say his memory was wrong all he said was "that doesn't sound like something PL would say" (and it wasn't!). Finally I told him, look, even if you weren't lying, you told your dad one tiny piece of the conversation and then you left off allllll this context that was really important to understand. So from dad's perspective you might as well have been lying because he couldn't make good decisions based on what you told him. I get that it's frustrating to not be believed. But one way you make people believe you is to make sure you're giving them all the information they need about a given subject, and you didn't do that here.

He kind of got quiet after that and he just said ok and said he'd think about it.

I think he was so ardent about being believed because of the gaslighting I imagine is going on at his mom's house. So I guess we need to find a way to walk the line between making him feel invalidated while still making clear we expect him to tell us the truth and then the whole truth.

But also! You all probably recognize this strategy, and we did too, because BM's favorite way to lie is to tell a kernel of truth and to ignore alllllll the other context that would put that kernel in a very different light.

So later, in the midst of this other conversation, it became clear to all of us including SS that BM had done exactly that: She told SS that he wasn't going to lessons on her time because his dad didn't sign him up. While it is true that his dad didn't sign him up, this ignores a whole host of other facts including: she could sign him up at the beginning of summer or still could; it would actually be disrespectful to her for H to sign him up on her time; H offered to sign SS up on her time and she didn't respond.

When SS was relaying to us that he had told BM that he didn't think she should have to pay for these lessons he said "but now that I know the whole story it sounds like that's not right." So basically exactly what DH had said to him earlier.

I guess part of my feelings today is that this was just a whole lot and I'm a little overwhelmed by the emotional work we all just did. And of course then they went back to their mom's house so I'm sooo apprehensive about what they'll come back with.

[athene1399]

I think you handled that very well! But even though it seemed to go well, it's still sad that the kids are starting to see you guys are not the problem. It's like you want them to realize it but at the same time you don't because it must be painful. But I also think that can open the door to conversations about mental health. Like mom does care about you and is trying her best. IDK. Like you don't want them to think the behavior is okay (she can't help it, when technically with the right therapy/medication you can) and only mom is allowed to act like that, but you don't want them thinking she does this stuff because she's a jerk. Maybe down the road explaining that mom thinks she is right and has trouble seeing things that don't support her beliefs? I've yet to find the right way to talk about it. I'm just throwing ideas out there just in case something sparks an idea in you. lol

I don't think the telling the half-truth thing with SS is as bad as it may look. I used to do that as a kid.  But I also think that as SS realizes you guys won't rage on him if he tells the whole truth, he will stop doing it. Maybe explain that to him. "Even if you do something wrong, we won't scream at you. There will be consequences, but we won't scream. And if it was an accident, we will be understanding. So please tell us the whole truth." I'm sure it's a survival mechanism from BM's house, maybe to not get raged on (but i'm speculating. could just be a kid thing where you don't want to get in trouble). 

I hope things are still good after they come back from BM's.

[Stepping lightly]

Hi PL,

I hear ya- we are going through some of the same things right now, lots of very productive...yet emotionally draining discussions.  I agree with Athene, the half truth thing, great to address, but especially in light of the topic being about how he can treat his sibling, I'd say that's actually pretty normal.  I can tell when DSS is leaving something out, you get a high pitched, "what?????" and then a head tilt to the side with this rapid "I'm so innocent" blinking thing he does.  I'm like, "Dude, your giving me every physical sign you have to show me you are not being honest" (yep, I do say "dude"). 

It was interesting, I had a chat with DSD (the GC at BM's) the other night at dinner.  So, backstory, BM has a live-in BF, the BF has an ex-wife and 2 kids that are older than DSD/DSS.  Years ago we've heard some unkind things said by DSD about the ex-wife- "their family is just full of rich snobs", to which I asked, "oh, have you met their family?", and she had said, "no"...so we talked about it at the time.  The other night, she was saying how she doesn't like ex-wife, and that when she met her more recently and she wasn't very friendly or nice.  I said, "well, that is a really difficult position for her to be in I would imagine.  I have heard some not so kind things that were said about her, so she may have been really uncomfortable".  DSD said, "but I was only like 8 (which is untrue, she was like 12), so she should have been nice to a child".  I said, "well,  I don't know her, but I do know that unkind things have been said about your Dad/I and that makes me very uncomfortable to be around you mom/BF because the things that were said were not true".  She pushed back more, so we went on to explain pre-conceived ideas about people by what is said, and how common that is...we used the work analogy of reviewing a resume before interviewing someone and already having an opinion that influences your interaction.  So, even if ex-wife acted fine, DSD would have highly interpreted any misstep as unfriendly.  I felt like it was a great conversation though, we know BM bad mouths us....and they bad mouth ex-wife.  She did say how she was sad she doesn't have a better relationship with BF's daughter, and I didn't say it, but seriously....you bad mouth her mom.  DSD will attack anyone that even looks at BM the wrong way.

[Penny Lane]

Oh yeah I also think the lying is probably normal. Obviously it's not super fun to see DSS follow BM's habits (and I think it triggers H a little bit). But I always think BM acts like a young teen - so I guess it makes sense that the 11 year old is going to exhibit some of the same behaviors. Both kids also went through a lying phase when they were about 7 and I think this is a more sophisticated version of the same thing. All that being said, thanks for the validation everyone because when stuff like this happens there's always a little part of me that's like WE'RE FAILING HE'S TURNING INTO HIS MOM.

My point was more that, it was interesting that he seemed to make the connection between what we'd said earlier (if you give us half truths we won't be able to trust what you say) and then what he was saying BM had done (gave him a half truth that led to him giving her bad advice). Hopefully he took away from all that - it's not OK when he does it to us, it's also not OK when BM does it to him.

Athene when they did the whole younger lying phase, DH did some internet research and he said the same thing you did - kids like because they think they're going to get punished. The thing he did to his sister wasn't a huge deal but the lying really turned it into a big production, so hopefully he sees that the lying made it much, much worse for him.

Haha SL I call the kids dude too, ESPECIALLY when we all know they're doing something they shouldn't be! "Dude, come on, you know better."

I love that you had that conversation and you connected the ex wife's situation with how you feel. PDs seem to not ever really care about others' feelings, and BM is probably not teaching the kids how to even consider what those feelings might be! Your talking about YOUR feelings over BM's behavior, to me, is a very valuable lesson for SD. How does she respond when you tell her it's uncomfortable for you to be around the mom/bf? Does she defend their behavior or does she get why you would feel that way?

[Stepping lightly]

We definitely feel the same way, is this normal or is this a step down the PD path?  Either way, it's not acceptable behavior, so I guess we manage it the same way.  You are right, him making that connection is pretty great, it gives him real understanding of what is happening.   If nothing else, he may start understanding that puzzle pieces are missing in the information from BM, and he needs to start questioning it a bit more deeply, or not taking it at face value.

It's interesting when I have these chats with DSD, she understands.  When I said that hurtful things were said about us, we've talked about that not that long ago where she denied it, and she relented when I said, "you are the one that repeated these things to us, so I don't think there is a question about it having happened".  So, we are on the same page there, this conversation more deeply showed her how harmful those things can be.  I explained how we all question how other people perceive us...all of us do....and when there are things being said about us that aren't true....it really makes us uncomfortable.  She stuck to the fact that the ex-wife is mean, which I don't know..she might be, but she didn't say anything when I told her I was uncomfortable around BM/BF.  BM has told her that it's because DH has told me a load of lies about her that are untrue....but....in our scenario she heard the lies about us, vs. her trying to swing it back on DH- DSD has never heard DH say anything mean to me about BM.  She will always believe BM over us, but my hope was that she starts piecing together the fact that BM bad mouths a lot of people unfairly.

[hhaw]

PL:
I felt it was helpful for my oldest dd to read e mails between me and unPD In Laws, bc she COULD SEE who said what.... she didn't have to be confused by the different versions she heard from each side.

In the end, it made things more difficult for DDr, bc her Grandmother's requests to "ask your mom when we can see you again?" became a burden.... DD understood that her grandparents were required to be supervised, fill out supervision paperwork, THEN set up visits.  They refused, even though I made multiple requests, and resent the paperwork over and over again.  DD felt how unfair and crazy her situation was.... how unfair and crazy her Grandmother's story was.... and dd finally asked to end phone calls with her Grandparents, who rarely answered during during scheduled calls anyway.

It might be helpful for ss to have access to the e mails between his m and d?  Maybe?  Seeing there are rules... seeing who's following them.... seeing who's being polite, and working towards calm consistent parenting..... seeing who's paying their fair share...... that's sounds like it would be very helpful to ss, IME.   No judgements against biomom. 

Also, it was great that you asked ss what he thought about conversations between his parents at pick ups.  Asking the child what THEY THINK is so hel;pful, IME.  Kids often KNOW what's what, and who's who.  The e mails might provide the validation he needs to feel less jerked around, and manipulated.

[Penny Lane]

hhaw, I had been kind of thinking that too so thanks for pointing that part out specifically.

My kneejerk reaction is, no that's not appropriate. But that was my kneejerk reaction to telling him that his mom hasn't paid for his stuff, too. And I'm glad we did.

What DH and I told him at the time was that it wouldn't be fair to BM to let him see private communications that she thought she was sending just to H. But I realized later - I see the emails, why is it OK for me to see them and not SS?

I also worry that she would complain to a judge, and I don't think they would take kindly to this.

I think he's too young to see her really hateful emails. But maybe that's just a kneejerk too.

Just kind of thinking out loud here, but one big problem is that BM goes down these insane rabbit holes in messages and I think the back and forth on some of them is waaaay too much detail for the kids to know. I really don't want to him to get too bogged down in this either.

Another downside is that if BM gets wind of it she will try to retaliate by showing DSS other communications (potentially even falsified, or she lies about the context to make DH seem like the bad guy) or doing something that she sees as comparable, but is actually a wild escalation.

One benefit that I see is that it might give DSS some models for how to react to his mom's bad behavior. H so rarely interacts with her in person these days that I don't know if the kids ever see anyone pushing back on her in a healthy way.

Maybe a middle ground is to show him the emails about the things he's actually asking about. In this case the emails where H offered to sign him up and later reminded her that she could do so. I have to think a judge might see the reasoning of "she told DSS I never said this and so I'm showing him that I did" as opposed to "I give him carte blanche to read anything."

All this might become moot because I think that if she is lying to DSS this much, H might decide he's really left with no choice.

I'm thinking we're in for a lot more incidents like this before things calm down, so it's probably good to think these things through now. Thanks again hhaw. Has anyone else showed limited communication to the kids? I know we've talked about PDs doing it as weapons before.

[Stepping lightly]

I think you need to be VERY careful if you choose to show emails.  How do you prove that you weren't cherry picking the ones that make BM look bad.  I know you wouldn't do that, but a PD would, and a judge ultimately isn't going to try to sort that out.  I guess it also depends on the age of the child, the issue involved etc.  I know in our situation, showing them emails at any type of frequency would add immensely to their stress. 

I also am very private with my emails, and I think parents should have the same ability to not have to broadcast their communication.  There will be emails you don't want the kids to see, because you do have to be "the bad guy" so to speak, and once you open that door...BM will certainly be glad to walk through it all day long.

[athene1399]

The only time we decided to show SD the texts from BM we did it in a way that she coudln't read it. We just scrolled through SO's phone to show her the length of the rant. We didn't want to get into it too much, but wanted to show her why we felt BM was not in a good place (it was in the midst of the trial). SD was 14 just turning 15 at the time. We noticed BM started raging on SD, so it was like a "This type of behavior really isn't acceptable. She shouldn't yell at you if that is what is happening. Dad's getting the same sort of treatment via text so that's why we want a judge to make the custody decision."[paraphrase]. We didn't hand her the phone. SO just held it up and scrolled so she could see he wasn't saying anything and BM was just raging via text.

I'm always on the fence about what to open up about. I still think SD thinks SO was the one who took BM to court and not the other way around. Recently we did tell her that even if she's too tired to go shopping for food when we see her we have to go get it or BM starts laying into SO again. She was ok with us saying that. She was like "Oh ok. I'll make sure we do go shopping together then." [paraphrase]. But she's also 18. I just feel like the three of us are all floating, trying not to piss off BM.

I think both hhaw and SL have good and opposite points about showing the emails (I'm sure that's a helpful statement lol). But maybe you and H can do a pros/cons list of showing vs not showing and see if it helps  you to decide.

[Penny Lane]

I think both hhaw and SL have good and opposite points about showing the emails

Haha that's pretty much what I was thinking too.

On one hand like SL said it seems to set us down a somewhat dangerous path.

On the other hand, DSS really wants to know what's going on and there is PROOF that DH is telling the truth about this stuff.

I do think I would be OK with the kids seeing pretty much any email DH has written to BM in the past few years. I mean he writes them knowing that at any point she could show them to anyone, from the kids to a judge. But I'd want him to have a chance to explain what he was thinking and why he made the decision he did, because otherwise BM would twist it around on him.

We half suspect that she's either doing this already or just telling them something that's not true about the content of the emails. In this conversation DSS brought up Our Family Wizard, which is NOT something H or I has ever discussed with him. But when we asked where he'd heard about that he clammed up. So I think she is saying even more than he let on.

I think where we'll come down is erring on the side of not showing the kids the emails. But if it becomes necessary maybe just show him what H sent - yes, he really did offer to sign you up on mom's time, for example. Hopefully it won't get to a point where we feel like we're forced to do that.

[hhaw]

Simply showing ss what his father wrote, offering to sign ds up for lessons on mum's time, seems pretty straightforward, but the Biomom won't see it that way.

Exposing a PD as the lying liars is going to be a problem, IME.

The thing is.... you weigh the choices, and you don't have any "good" choices.

Will it benefit the child to answer his straightforward questions, even if it stirs a hornet's nest with his mom?

It seems this particular child is seeking the truth, from a very serious place, and perhaps seeking validation for what he suspects is the truth?

I don't know anything, except there aren't any good choices. You select the least harmful choice, and know you've done your best. 

I'll tell you this, sometimes a good T has answers we didn't think of.  I think kids in these situations really benefit from having that neutral person in their life.   

IF you guys do show e mails, remember to stay super supportive of the biomom, and always assume the best of her when referring to her in front of ss.

When we do that, we leave space for the kids to speak honestly about the other parent, which won't happen if the kids feel a drop of defensiveness, IME.

BTW, my dd saw the emails between me and her  Grandparents on my computer.  I didn't show her, and but she didn't ask to see the emails either.  Had she asked, I would have shown her without thinking about it, bc my words aligned with those emails exactly.  There was never any judgement, or snark from me, and it sounds like you guys handle things the same with ss. 

Good luck,

[Stepping lightly]

I would say, if you show the one email so he knows what was said, that might be ok, but I wouldn't open the door off scrolling through them and letting him read.  You were accused of something, you showed it wasnt true, end of story.  I know I  have mentioned that DH had to do this in regards to his bank account after BM accused him of stealing.  He showed DSD the opposite where he is actually paying BM not stealing.  She tried to nail him with the judge and it didnt work.  BUT if it was a regular thing it may have been  different.

[hhaw]

Whew, boy.  And when we share that one e mail, PROVING the PD is a lying liar, manipulating the child for their own selfish reasons, is that child life get easier, or more difficult?

Always more difficult, bc they're likely going to go back to the PD parent and confront that parent that they now KNOW THE TRUTH, bc the non parent or sp proved they're a lying liar.   

IME that calls for a raging dumspter fire reaction from the PD parent, which I've certainly experienced.

The most positive choice, IME,  is asking the child what they think..... and providing safe space to voice it, without the non hearing about it.  There are no optimal choices, just less harmful ones.

Offering compassion for everyone involved, including the PD, might not be easy, but it's usually one of the least harmful choices for the children also, IME.

I'd also consider who that child is.... WILL that child run to the PD and confront them?  Hopefully not.  Will that child find comfort and knowing, keep it under their hat, and learn how to deal with the PD parent in a way that minimizes chaos and trauma?

My dd wouldn't ever confront (anyone but me) while another child in my life IS a confronter of EVERYONE, particularly their PD parent.  The time I listened calmly to her, and asked her what she thought was the truth, she nailed it exactly, shared her feelings about her PD parent with me, and her PD parent never heard about it.   All was calm, and I felt relief radiate from that dear child for the first time in so many years.... it was beautiful, and very very sad to witness.

That wasn't the case, in one instance with this [particular child a couple years later.  I failed to ask what she thought, and stated a truth, about money, without thinking.  That child went back and confronted the PD parent, which brought a sh*t storm down on all our heads.  THe kids and non PD parent gained NOTHING from my thoughtless sharing of easily proven facts.  The fact that the lies were easy to disprove meant I should have kept my yap shut, and allowed the child to figure it out for herself. I see that now, but then.... this child was roiling, and raging, SO HARD TO WATCH/LISTEN TO, and accusing the non pd parent of being a thief and the opposite was true..... . it was also a theme in my PD experience, so I was triggered, and that was a mistake. 

That's all I have to say about that.

[athene1399]

SL's comment reminded me of another situation that may be helpful as you think about this. I started a bank account for SD to help with college a few years ago and told her about it. SO was talking to SD about it last year when they were discussing paying for college. SD said something along the lines of "How do I even know that account exists? For all I know there is no account." [paraphrase]. Of course that's a BM statement. SO told me about their conversation and it kind of made me mad. Up to that point I would text SD the balances randomly, but didn't send her a screen shot of the actual account. So I send SD a screen shot of the actual account showing the balance and said something along the lines of "since you think I am lying about this account existing, here's a screen shot." She responded with "I didn't think you were lying" so I just dropped it. It seemed like even though SD parrots some of the things BM says, she doesn't really think about what they mean. When SD said she didn't know the account even existed, I don't think she made the connection that making that statement is calling me a liar. The whole situation could probably also been addressed if we asked SD if she thought I was lying about the account.  All in all, we want the kids logically coming to conclusions themselves. I also think just showing SD the bank statement would not have had that same affect as me saying "since you think I am lying..." I probably should have phrased that better, but I think saying that helped her to make that connection (that saying the account didn't exist meant that she thought I was lying even though she never thought that).

But it's kind of similar to what hhaw was saying about making the kids come to conclusions themselves. Is there a way for you to get SS to think about this without showing the email? Or can you ask SS to think about a time he caught H in a lie? (I'm assuming that's never happened). Just so he can think "Dad's never lied to me before, so why would be be lying now?" That's a little different than "BM's lying". It means the same thing, but if SS doesn't want to connect the dots that far he doesn't have to.

Like hhaw said, we just try to find the least hurtful solution because no good solutions actually exist. And the feeling of being between a rock and a hard place is unfortunately all too common. So is stressing over the PD parent's reactions to whatever we try. I think that's why after SO and I discuss talking to SD about something he sometimes doesn't do it. I think he'd rather not have that possible reaction from BM.

[Stepping lightly]

Totally agree with HHaw that the approach depends on the child. 

When DH had to show his bank account, DSD was uncontrollably angry, and nothing was working to call her down....she was seven.  It was such a nightmare- she started yelling at DH during her shower and worked herself into such hysterics that I remember them coming out into the living room with her wrapped in a towel/soaking wet and she was hysterically crying and yelling.  DH knew, and I now know....DSD has endurance in these meltdowns....not just hours...they can go ALL NIGHT!  He's amazing at talking her down from her rages, but it wasn't working.  Desperation kicked in, and we all know she told BM- because as I mentioned it came up in court.

DSS doesn't run to BM, but we never want him in a position where he feels like he knows something he can let slip to BM.  DSD runs to BM with eagerness.  Definitely the effect of GC/SG dynamic. 

[Penny Lane]

These are all good points, everyone. It's true, there are no GOOD options, only better and worse ways to react to a bad situation. I like the principle of asking as many questions as possible. In this case SS just totally blindsided us and asked a bunch of factual questions that he had no way to know the answer to. So we were kind of playing catchup with answering all those questions. But in the future hopefully if we're better prepared we can say things like "what do you think is happening here?" "do you think it was a good idea for you to weigh in on whether your mom pays for stuff?" (although it seemed like he already knew the answer to that). I'd love to hear other suggestions for things to ask when the kid is asking a factual question, how to help them turn it from assessing the facts to using critical thinking.

I do want the kids to be armed with factual information. I do NOT want them growing up thinking dad doesn't take care of them financially or dad is blocking their mom from going to their lessons (just the opposite! he practically begged her to take them sometimes because he knew how much they wanted her there). So I don't think the solution is don't answer the questions at all. Maybe just answer them quickly and redirect the conversation to them using their critical thinking skills. My hope would be that as the facts confirm DSS's gut feeling, he will learn to trust that gut and he won't be looking for as detailed of answers eventually. Maybe? Again kind of thinking out loud.

My guess is that DSS won't run to BM, per se, but I think he will keep investigating and asking questions at both houses. BM just agreed to pay for several things (this never happens) which makes me suspect that SS again talked to her about not paying for lessons this summer and she wanted to prove to him that she does pay for stuff. Not a good outcome for anyone (I mean it's great that she is paying for her share of things but it's not great if he talked to her more about it). But we also can't really tell him not to talk to his mom about the things we say. Hopefully he will learn on his own that he doesn't need to confront his mom, he can just know it for himself and use it to decide how to behave.

It's interesting that you say that the approach depends on the child because I feel like we're all of a sudden dealing with a whole new kid here! I think it's just adolescence - his understanding of things has become much more sophisticated, he's a lot more willing to address uncomfortable topics head-on and he's a lot more curious about things he never seemed to care about before. So the approach we've used up to this point goes totally out the window and we're having to re-calibrate all of our reactions. I'm definitely proud of him for making a leap in maturity, but it's a challenge to keep up with him for sure!

[sevenyears]

Penny Lane - that you and your SCs are having these conversations testifies to the amazing job you are doing. Step parenting isn't easy and step parenting in PD circumstances is a whole 'nother ball game. 

As for showing DS the emails from BM: I don't think showing them will be helpful, and could actually be harmful. Right now, your DSS is on his own path to discovering the truth and processing everything that goes with it. You have been very careful not to be judgemental towards BM or to show her in a negative light. Showing the emails then puts her in a negative light. Even though that is her own doing, you will be the messenger/lightening rod or whatever other analogy you prefer. He is confronting his views/feelings for his BM already. Seeing her negativity in black and white forces that more quickly. You know your DSS better than we do, would it really be helpful for him? Is he ready? Or, would it create anger/rage, rejection, or other problems? What does your H think about showing the messages?

[Penny Lane]

You know your DSS better than we do, would it really be helpful for him? Is he ready? Or, would it create anger/rage, rejection, or other problems? What does your H think about showing the messages?

Thank you sevenyears, these are extremely wise questions and I'm going to again just kind of think out loud as I answer them.

DH and I are pretty much on the same page about how concerning all this is and that we need to be as truthful as possible. But we differ a little bit in that H's biggest concern is that BM is going to ruin his relationship with SS by lying to the kids about what's happening. My biggest concern is that they're going to grow up not realizing that their mom lies and make some really bad decisions (could be something like giving her control of their money but that would also include something like rejecting their dad) based on the things she says. So H would more lean toward showing him because he really wants SS to know that he's telling the truth. I lean more toward giving him the tools to check what he's hearing against his gut. But neither of us is really entrenched in that position because like everyone's been saying there is no GOOD choice.

To that end I'm not sure it would be helpful for him to see the emails that H sends. I think really leaning into "WE are right not your mom" doesn't send the right message. (Not that anyone is suggesting that or H is doing it! I just worry it could come across that way). But, if SS is really truly confused about who to believe, I do think it could be helpful for him to see in black and white that things happened exactly the way H said they did. So in the short term it could be helpful to him in trying to figure out the truth, which could help him in the long run in learning to assess whether someone is lying to him. But it also does carry a high risk so maybe it's not worth that. I also really don't think it would be good for him to make it a regular thing to read correspondence between his parents.

I can't imagine it would be all that helpful for him to read BM's words. First of all she often lies, in emails to H, even about things she said in other emails to him. So then you end up going down a rabbit hole that frankly sometimes confuses me and has in the past confused judges and lawyers. So that's not going to shed a whole lot of light for SS. And like you alluded to, she can be really mean. I know she probably says this stuff in person too but it can be really jarring to see it and I really just don't want him to have to (as much as he might think he wants to).

I don't know if he's ready to see the emails, although I do generally think the fact that he's asking about this stuff means that he's ready to hear about at least some of it. He didn't say a whole lot, just listened to us so it's hard for me to really know how he was reacting. I think he needed some time to process it.

What is so frustrating about all of this is that BM is basically forcing DH into a situation where he has to make these kinds of choices! For years she has not paid her fair share of things, she has messed stuff up financially, she has hid stuff from H. And he NEVER said ANYTHING to the kids about money. Never breathed a word of her failings to the kids - just paid for the stuff they needed without complaint. Now she's created a situation where the kids can either believe her lies, or learn that their mom is really falling down on the job. No matter how nicely we say "your mom could have taken you to lessons but chose not to, and I don't know why that is" - they're still going to learn the truth. And all she had to do was to not lie to the kids, and we would've kept not talking about it forever.

I think probably what will end up happening is that H will try to avoid showing DSS any emails or messages. But if it comes right down to it, like BM lies and says he never sent a message that he did, he will try to quickly and painlessly show DSS that he did in fact do this thing. I'm really hoping this will all blow over and it will never come to that. Ultimately it's up to H but I've been sharing everyone's thoughts with him and it really is helping us a lot to figure out where our heads are at.

I do agree with what everyone has been saying about speaking nicely about their mom. In this conversation we really leaned on "I don't know why she made that decision" and "that's a better question for her." It helped to remove ourselves a little bit to say factual statements that didn't really address anything about her "hm well I don't know why she said that but I do know that your dad offered to sign you up on her time, she didn't get back to him and it wouldn't be appropriate for him to sign you up without her permission." I'm guessing we'll need to keep working hard at this as he keeps asking about these things.