Please help

[Nohigherjoy]

You can read my history with ex here
https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=78424.msg682263#msg682263

You guys have graciously responded. I'm still in a tough spot. Bc he BPD and NPD, he thinks about himself instead of his kids. Instead of picking up our son from work the last few weekends that he's had the kids, he's told my son to find a ride home or someone to sleepover with. Work ends at 7:45pm so it's not too late at night. I run the kids all over the place 24/7 and he only has them 4-5 days a month. It makes me sad for my son that his dad is not willing to spend time with him. Some of our best conversations are on rides to and from work. Anyway, this weekend, dad has a "surprise party" for a friend and told son to find ride home. These "surprise parties" are becoming frequent- the most recent was at a bar and ex wanted me to drop kids there and I refused. Court order of divorce decree is that I can cut visits based on his drinking. I told him if this weekend party involved him drinking, kids couldn't come. He chose party over seeing kids and has threatened to reduce child support and take me to court because he "doesn't like how I try to control him." In light of this, should I stop visits completely until it's hashed out in court? My attorney says there's no way he'll get continued visits with him continuing to drink after 3 DUIs and a probation violation. I just don't want to hurt the kids relationship with dad. I also want to protect them.

[eyesopen]

Rightly and admirably, you want to do what's best for the kids, which obviously isn't a straightforward choice.  On one hand, no visits with their father will be tough on them because they need a dad.  On the other hand, his drinking and unwillingness to care and provide for them could be more damaging to the kids than no contact.

If he's repeatedly choosing party/alcohol/friends and can't set aside those things for 4-5 days a month to be with his kids, he's showing you his priorities through his actions.  He tries to flip it around on you and label you as controlling, but it sounds like you're just asking him to be a responsible dad 4-5 days a month and he's free to drink and party the other ~25 days.  Your expectations are not unreasonable and are not controlling.

Until the court can officially revise visitation, you need to do what you're comfortable with.  If allowing visits makes you uncomfortable and you think allowing them will cause more harm than good, then you're totally justified in stopping them.  The divorce decree gives you the ability to make choices in the best interest of your kids, so use that power wisely and without guilt if you need it.

[Penny Lane]

Hi nohigherjoy,
So sorry to hear that the issues are continuing and the drinking is getting worse.

What's your sense on whether he's going to actually take you to court? Is it a bluff designed to get you to do what he wants (in which case ignore it) or do you know him to be litigious (in which case you should be prepared)?

It sounds like this situation is the exact kind of thing that the judge wanted to prevent by letting you cut off visitation. I would strongly consider that possibility. If you think the kids are in danger with him, and you can stop them from being in that situation, that is NOT controlling him. That's protecting your kids. Asking you to drop the kids off AT A BAR when he's been ordered to not drink is ... well it's just astounding, honestly.

Is it possible to just cut off overnights? So the kids could go to him during the day on those 4-5 days a month and then you'd just pick them up before the "party"? That would be my preference in your situation, if it's possible. Of course, even if this is legally possible it might not be logistically possible in that he might cause an unwanted scene when you try to pick up the kids. You know best.

If you go the route of cutting off visits I suggest you make a plan for what you're going to say to the kids. Maybe something like: "Your dad is not well right now and is struggling to take care of you, and I really hope he decides to stop drinking soon so you can see him again." Maybe suggest ways they can stay in touch - calling him or writing him a card. That way it's clear to them that you WANT them to have a relationship with him.

With the not picking your son up from work thing: On that last thread there was some talk about coming up with a plan with the kids to handle stuff like this. It seems like your son needs a better plan than his dad's which is just to figure it out. Maybe you could help your son get Uber or Lyft on his phone connected to your credit card, to be used in situations like this? Maybe if he's supposed to find somewhere to sleep you just go pick him up and bring him back to your house? I don't know what's feasible for you here but I think there's probably a way you could help your son handle this as best as possible.

I agree with you, it is SO sad that he's choosing to drink and telling your son to find another house to sleepover at! I mean why even bother exercising your visitation if you're not even going to spend that time with the kids? I think this is a total dereliction of his parenting duties and I really feel for your kids that they have to deal with this. And you - good luck, I'm wishing you lots of strength and wisdom to sort out this incredibly difficult situation.

[Nohigherjoy]

Thank you so much for encouragement and support. It is so freeing to openly share all this mess. He's always bluffed in the past about reducing child support; although, we both agreed to reduce it last July and had court documents drawn up stating such. He pays much more than the state minimum, but he's signed 2 documents at this point agreeing to pay what he pays. I am worried he will quit paying child support because he is so irate saying I'm controlling his every move, which is obviously not true! I spoke with my attorney a few months ago and she said he wouldn't have a chance of gaining more visitations, but would be in dire straits of being under supervised visitations with his record and also a probation violation. He is high functioning and appears to be extremely likable and funny to others  (as most NPs). But, he can snap and become irate very easily. He's re-married and she doesn't have custody of her 2 sons either, so I imagine that won't help their case at all. I just ache for my children to be put through his smear campaign and emotional abuse. He will twist it all as my fault and that I'm the one fighting for custody, yada yada. The thing is, I think he really believes the stuff he says. He really thinks I'm at fault here. He doesn't see his destructive behavior or abuse. He is very arrogant and thumbs his nose at any laws, etc. Please pray for my children's hearts, for truth to always prevail, and for protection over us all. It's such crazy making. I just made a simple statement to the kids today they would be home with me this weekend since their Dad has a party and we decided it'd be best they go another weekend. They were all fine and just shrugged it off. Right now he's blocked me from contacting him. Anytime I mention my concern of drinking around the kids, his response is anger and blocking. I have 3 years of detailed notes of every thing he's done to break promises or the agreement. I'm afraid if he takes this to court, he's just going to cause more problems for himself and the kids, which will somehow become all my fault in the kids minds. I don't want to keep them from seeing their dad. I simply want him to forgo drinking when he's around them. It's insane that he refuses to do that! Phew.

[athene1399]

nohigherjoy,

Reducing the child support when his choices leave you having more time with the kids doesn't really make sense IMO. I'm assuming he's saying that to pressure you into doing what he wants and if he just stops paying it to throw a tantrum, that's can't look good to a judge. If they wrote it in the agreement (that if you feel he's drinking you can stop the visits), then the courts felt like this was something major that needed to be included. That means you have every right to stop the visits since it appears your ex is drinking. I think Penny has some great suggestions on how the kids can still contact dad other times of the month if he feels the need to party on his time to have them.

The thing is, I think he really believes the stuff he says. He really thinks I'm at fault here. He doesn't see his destructive behavior or abuse.

The problem SO and I have had with BPDBM is just that. She told SD is was all his fault we were in court when she was the petitioner! But in her eyes it was SO's fault because he wouldn't giver her what she wanted and sign the paper work to give BM custody. And you can't JADE to let them know how delusional they are being because that just makes things worse. SD was so mad at SO for them being in court and her having to talk to the law guardian because BM told SD it was all SO's fault. We didn't say anything to defend ourselves because we were told not to talk about it. We finally told SD we just wanted a judge to hear our case and make the custody decision. I don't know if that helped or not. I totally understand your fears as I've been in that situation.

I don't know if you feel it would be age appropriate to talk to your kids about substance abuse. Maybe just say dad's drinking is like a sickness and he's not been well lately and that he does love them and wouldn't intentionally harm them, but you have to keep their safety in mind if you know he's going to be drinking. I'm honestly always on the fence about talking about the mental health stuff with SD. I'm always afraid it will come out wrong. Once we did have to keep her from seeing BM because BM attempted suicide. SD was 15 at the time and we just told her her mom's depression was really bad. And after she was out of the psych ward we told SD we wanted supervised visits and no overnights until we knew her mom was feeling good and stable again emotionally. SD didn't seem upset by any of that. BM called her every night and backed up what we said about the depression (SO, I, and BM's therapist urged her not to mention the suicide attempt, but she wanted to. I don't think she did mention it). SD didn't do an over night with BM for about two months. We started them slowly once we were okay with her staying there. Like once a week before we went back to the visitation schedule. So don't feel bad keeping your kids from dad if you feel the situation may be unsafe.

[xredshoesx]

if your son is old enough to understand what substance abuse looks like is it possible that your ex is not picking him up from work on purpose b/c your son will notice he's been drinking?
 
ie another possible way to show to your L that ex cares more about the drinking than he does about time with the kids.

i am sorry you and the kids are going through this.  both my parents have substance abuse issues.  my dad tries to hide it TO THIS DAY and he's in his 70s.

[Penny Lane]

You're totally right, court would be awful in a variety of ways. Hopefully it's an idle threat on his part. But I also think you're right - there's no way he would prevail and he would likely lose badly. So you can't let his threats of court stop you from doing what's right for the kids. If you did, he'd have a trump card to pull out every single time he doesn't like a decision you make for the kids. So you just have to do what's right, hope he's threatening, and be ready with lots of documentation if he does file something. You might also consider whether it makes sense to do some defensive court filings, like a contempt motion if he gets far enough behind on child support. It's so frustrating that it's largely out of your control whether you go to court or not - but that's unfortunately the world we all live in.

I don't know if you've been reading through other threads but there's been a lot of good advice on here about how to talk to the kids about what the other parent is doing. It's really helped me as my DSS11 gains a more sophisticated understanding of the dynamics in play, and some of the advice in those threads might help you too. I think what you said about the party to them was perfect.

I'm so sorry, all of this is so difficult. It sounds like you're handling it amazingly well both with the kids and with the boundaries you put up with your ex.

[Nohigherjoy]

Redshoes- so sorry about your Dad. Substance abuse is awful. I enabled forever a large part bc I grew up with an alcoholic Dad as well. He's only 67 and in a nursing home due to multiple strokes and heart issues from drinking. The neurologist said he's basically pickled his brain. ☹️

Pennylane- Thank you for your words of wisdom! My kids are 16, 14, 13, and 8. They all know about the addiction because I drove their Dad around for 18m when he lost his license the 2nd time- we were still married then and 3 if the kids went everywhere with us bc ex lost his job and started a job in repairwork. Sigh. So, they've known for years bc ex also supposedly quit drinking for at least 6 years. I discovered a sex addiction which ended the marriage- lots of prostitution, etc. And ex's rages became so bad that he physically punched our oldest son. Anyway, the children know the criterion of dad not drinking around them. They' express fears from time to time if I have a glass of wine... so they are fearful of drinking. I should probably not even drink ever in front of them, but I also don't have the problem, so it's hard to balance showing them a glass isn't bad, it's the person that misuses it that's dangerous.  He's brainwashed them to believing he's safe bc he can handle drinking and he's told them if they ever feel unsafe, to let him know. What kid is going to do that with an addict who is emotionally abusive? I appreciate the info about filing if he gets behind on child support. I'll read through other posts as well for help. I have peace most of the time, but do have a small nugget of worry of the not knowing what he's going to do about filing.