How do you handle grandparents who want to talk to your children?

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ICantThinkOfAName

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Re: How do you handle grandparents who want to talk to your children?
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2019, 03:12:05 AM »
Think of it like putting your daughter into a pool of toxic sludge. Itís your job to protect her from the sludge. I know that my kids at that age were super impressionable and it was easy for grandma manipulate. They were too young to fend off the manipulation.  My uBPDm was telling
my kids things about me that were pretty bad. Kids need to feel good about their parents. This creates stability. When they are hearing confusing things about mom and dad it does a lot of damage especially when itís coming from someone they think they can trust. I had to look at it as protecting my kids from abuse. Because whether she does it sooner or later, it will happen.  It may not look like abuse, I mean look how much she rotes on your daughter. But how can your daughter feel good about herself when sheís complicit in taking down her sibling  She canít stand up and say hey my sibling is good too! Cause grandma wouldnít stand for that kind of talk. So she has to hide that and or agree.  I decided that I may not have control of the people my children are exposed to but Iím not going to knowingly put them in a harmful situation. Iím sorry if this comes off blunt. I do not know your situation and perhaps the baggage from my own situation is triggering me. I also want to say how sorry I am that you are put into this position at all.  Whatever you decide, it is a tough decision. One that no one should have to make.

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ICantThinkOfAName

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Re: How do you handle grandparents who want to talk to your children?
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2019, 03:25:46 AM »
Just wanted to add to my last post and in regards to treating this like a divorce. Even in a divorce there are rules not to disparage the other spouse. Doing so is called parental alienation and it is an offense that the courts recognize iand will take the kids away from the parent doing the alienation. So maybe it can work if she doesnít violate those basic rules otherwise I would not allow contact.

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illogical

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Re: How do you handle grandparents who want to talk to your children?
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2019, 07:04:10 PM »
...But how can your daughter feel good about herself when sheís complicit in taking down her sibling  She canít stand up and say hey my sibling is good too! Cause grandma wouldnít stand for that kind of talk. So she has to hide that and or agree.

This is a good point.  Your daughter will feel the pull from her grandmother to malign her brother.  That can't be healthy.

I grew up a Scapegoat.  My GC brother, whom my NM showed extreme favortism to, saw a different "mom" than I did.  NM's black and white thinking invariably took over and she could never see me as doing anything right.  Conversely, she could never see my GC brother as doing anything wrong.  This type of dysfunctional dynamic tends to pit siblings against each other.  The damage from this can be far-reaching.

While extreme favoritism toward one child is abhorrent, also abhorrent is your mother's need for revenge toward you for setting boundaries.  I believe she is in the "amassing" stage-- trying to get your daughter on her side so she can amass a little army to assault your character.  It wouldn't surprise me if your mother told your daughter the same lies she tried to pass off on you-- that you were responsible for your father's descent into considering self-harm.  She may very well do this as a preventative measure.  That way, if your daughter says anything to her, she can counter with "Your mother (Sidney) is responsible for your grandfather's depression."  Etc., etc., etc.  So there may be a "preemptive" strike on your mother's part, in order to make sure your daughter knows the "real truth" about her grandfather instead of the "lies" her mother has told in this regard.  This is so fucked up I don't even have words.  But I believe it can happen because I have seen the lies and lengths Ns are willing to go to in order to get their revenge.

If you feel you must allow your daughter to engage with your mother, I would make damn sure there is no "alone" time between your daughter and your mother.  That means that all phone calls would be put on speaker so that you and/or your DH can be privy to the bullsh*t your mother is feeding your daughter.

Ditto for any visits.  No unsupervised visits, period.  You and/or DH needs to be in on every single communication between your mother and your daughter to make sure your mother is not peddling her lies.

Ideally, as I said in my former posts, your daughter needs to be isolated from your mother so your mother can't manipulate her.  If this is not possible, or you don't feel it's possible, I would very closely monitor any contact between them.  And even if that is the case, I would expect that your mother is going to go to great lengths to try to use your daughter as a pawn in her game of revenge to punish you for setting boundaries.  Despite your best efforts to prevent this, if you decide to allow contact between your mother and your daughter, there is the possibility that your mother will be able to manipulate your daughter into seeing her side.   :yes:
"Applying logic to potentially illogical behaviour is to construct a house on shifting foundations.  The structure will inevitably collapse."

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scapegoat/caregiver

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Re: How do you handle grandparents who want to talk to your children?
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2019, 10:29:08 AM »
hello  so sorry you are going thru this divide and conquer thing she is doing...i'm going thru something very similar
I would be worried about your son he is going to think he is less of a person or second fiddle.
Your NM has got to know that both children are to be treated equally.   they are not doing this and your T does not understand the concept
perhaps you can let your daughter know this concept and how it negatively impacts her brother..... and it WILL
if your daughter understands how her brother feels maybe she will step back and look at his feelings and the BIG PICTURE

The gifts are a BRIBE.  someone should tell your NM that your SON is just as important as your daughter and until they recognize this..... NO GIFTS.

do not leave your daughter alone with her.... I did,  and my NM told her bad things about me yelling at her... My nm then gave my daughter a gift of cash but alienated my son even further  because  as she said  "he doesn't do anything for me why would I do anything for him"., making my son feel guilt   
 

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rmf

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Re: How do you handle grandparents who want to talk to your children?
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2019, 12:51:44 PM »
I beleive that if you knew something was dangerously wrong with your Borderline parent when you were a kid, your kids will feel the same way.  Kids now. However, they often feel the need to be loyal, protect and make it right.

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Fortuna

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Re: How do you handle grandparents who want to talk to your children?
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2019, 09:30:16 PM »
If you feel you must allow your daughter to engage with your mother, I would make damn sure there is no "alone" time between your daughter and your mother.  That means that all phone calls would be put on speaker so that you and/or your DH can be privy to the bullsh*t your mother is feeding your daughter.

Ditto for any visits.  No unsupervised visits, period.  You and/or DH needs to be in on every single communication between your mother and your daughter to make sure your mother is not peddling her lies.

I'm VLC with my Nmom. She only sees the kids supervised and through online chats that I'm in earshot for. As needed we've had talks about setting boundaries with her (like if she keeps on a topic they don't want to talk about anymore), information diet tactics and even MC. I've tried to make it clear that this is how she is, but that doesn't mean they have to uncomfortable, they have the option of leaving the call, getting me, and so on) It's a bit stressful for me but I thought the kids deserved to try to have a relationship, or at least not exit out without understand what was happening. (still not sure this was the best way to go, but this has led to the GC, my oldest daughter, to start realizing the type of person my mom is. )
The calls gave her just enough rope to hang herself with. My daughter was showing support for a group of marginalized people and mom managed to put her foot in it because she has no empathy. Now my daughter will talk with her but she goes with her eyes more open.

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Sidney37

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Re: How do you handle grandparents who want to talk to your children?
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2019, 11:57:18 AM »
Thanks all.  The kids' devices now have the grandparents blocked after NPDm started guilt tripping my teen daughter by text recently. (Don't ever forget about me... I might never see you again... you have to call your grandfather at this specific time or we won't talk to you...constant demands for DD to call them to tell them what we are all up to...)  I didn't agree, but the therapist suggested that we wait until the PD behavior was directed at DD so that DD saw for herself what was going on.  If not, she might blame us for years for keeping her from her grandparents.  We had apparently covered for PDm's terrible behavior quite well over the years, so DD was seeing her through rose colored glasses so to speak.  I didn't think I could be NC while DD was still in communication, but therapist insisted that I could.   :stars:

We stopped covering, started answering questions about my childhood honestly, answered questions about UPDm's current behavior honestly and let DD see the truth without really pushing it on our end.  UPDM showed her behavior without us having to tell DD what she is like.  Well the glasses are off and DD asked us to block uPDm from her phone as well.  It didn't take nearly as long as I thought.  I hated that it happened.  Seeing DD cry for hours over the mean things that were directed at her was awful for me.  I'm not sure I agree with the therapist that it was the best way, but she knows now. 

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all4peace

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Re: How do you handle grandparents who want to talk to your children?
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2019, 01:35:44 PM »
Sidney37, our T also advised letting our kids have some level of access, but then was also supportive with us blocknig mil when uNBPDmil used that access to guilt trip and manipulate DD. At that point, DD was in agreement that mil be blocked. I think there's a difference between hurt and harm, and I'm thankful that we allowed our kids to see "enough" to understand but not enough to harm them. Remember that your daughter's primary attachment is with you, and that while your M can hurt her it will likely not be anything nearly as impactful as your DD's relationship with you. I hope that your DD adjusts and settles into this new reality, and that your family starts healing.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2019, 09:05:05 PM by all4peace »

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illogical

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Re: How do you handle grandparents who want to talk to your children?
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2019, 04:53:33 PM »
So sorry this happened, Sidney 37.

Glad your DD saw through your mother's manipulation and abuse, though.  Take care!  :hug:
"Applying logic to potentially illogical behaviour is to construct a house on shifting foundations.  The structure will inevitably collapse."

__Stewart Stafford

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Starboard Song

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Re: How do you handle grandparents who want to talk to your children?
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2019, 06:31:57 PM »
We were rejected by my MIL when our DS was 12.  That rejection of us turned to NC when their rejection and treatment treatment was leavened with spasms of verbal abuse. On that basis, we believed NC was a decision we had to make for ourselves and our DS13. He has had no further contact with those grandparents in 4 years.

If he had been younger than 13 I'd have felt far less conflicted about this sad outcome. Younger than 10 and it would have been a snap. If he had been 16 or so, is have felt that he deserved to make up his own mind. And indeed, we've now given him a choice of whether to receive mail from them: he has chosen not to.

This was a fact: at no age do you allow continued engagement if that requires you to endure any actual abuse. Attempts to arrange visits with my DS ended in my MIL telling us again how much she hated us,  how sick and twisted we were, and that the only goal she had was to get us out of her life.

I'd we had chosen to allow continued engagement, in such a situation, I don't understand how it could be unsupervised.

This may be the line all4peace is referencing, for I repeat it often:

A kind and loving grandparent is a treasure. A grandparent who is not reliably loving and kind is not a treasure. And an abusive parent is bad timber with which to construct a proper grandparent.

Or maybe she meant this, regarding the primary importance of your marriage:

We must never allow those who cannot reliably love us to tear us from those who do.

This challenge you face is uncommon and poorly understood. Chances are, you-today strongly disagree with you-last-year. Maybe even with you-last-week. So we cannot expect our spouses -- we shouldn't expect our spouses -- to be in lock step with us. It is our special, chosen burden to assume that their too cold and our too hot are good for each other. They blend well.

Acti when you and DH don't see eye to eye, talk it to death. Figure out really exactly why. And don't forget to ask how recently you thought like he does now.

I encourage you to begin with standards of behavior you each believe you deserve to expect from others. And see what boundaries you can agree to. One step at a time I believe you can get there.
Radical Acceptance, by Brach   |   Self-Compassion, by Neff    |   Mindfulness, by Williams   |   The Book of Joy, by the Dalai Lama and Tutu
Healing From Family Rifts, by Sichel   |  Stop Walking on Egshells, by Mason    |    Emotional Blackmail, by Susan Forward

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illogical

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Re: How do you handle grandparents who want to talk to your children?
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2019, 08:38:55 PM »
...This challenge you face is uncommon and poorly understood. Chances are, you-today strongly disagree with you-last-year. Maybe even with you-last-week. So we cannot expect our spouses -- we shouldn't expect our spouses -- to be in lock step with us. It is our special, chosen burden to assume that their too cold and our too hot are good for each other. They blend well.

That's very true-- I don't believe that we can expect our partners will be "in lock step".  I do think that this can go a couple of ways--

One, the partner hasn't been raised by PD parents and finds it difficult to fathom how abusive and damaging they can be.

Second, the partner hasn't been raised by PD parents and can see more clearly what we can't-- i.e., they can be more objective about the situation because they aren't too close to the situation or in the dysfunctional web.

In the first case, I think it's up to us to try to educate them about PDs by sharing our experiences and knowledge.  It can be hard, though, to try to explain to someone raised by normal parents the complicated dynamic of dysfunction.

In the second case, it can be enlightening, them seeing things through a different prism, maybe seeing things for how they really are-- all the manipulation and such-- rather than being blinded to it because they have been brainwashed and groomed as we have, and often so close to the dysfunction we can't really see the forest for the trees.  Just me rambling on.... :yes:
« Last Edit: October 05, 2019, 08:43:40 PM by illogical »
"Applying logic to potentially illogical behaviour is to construct a house on shifting foundations.  The structure will inevitably collapse."

__Stewart Stafford