What's this?

[Associate of Daniel]

A voice message from ex MIL today asking me to call her.

I've not seen or heard from her or her family for several years, pretty much since her uNPD son (my ex) left me. Even when I contacted her over a few practical things she didn't respond.

She and exFIL didn't come to their own front door on the half dozen or so occasions a changeover happened there.

I know there's a rift between them and uNPD exH and his uNPD wife.  Ds12 hasn't sen them for 18 months or so I think.

He wants to see his grandparents but hasn't asked me to facilitate such a meeting.

So. What does she want?

Is there a family funeral she wants ds to attend?  Does she want to arrange to meet ds through me? Does she want to reconcile with me?

How should I respond?

I really don't want my ex inlaws in my life. They dropped me like a hot potato when uNPD exH left and offered no help amongst the abuse he was bestowing upon me, that they were fully aware of.

Any contact with them would cause MAJOR dramas between uNPD exH and me.  I have enough of that already.

I'm tempted to send a text saying I can't talk this week. True, since I'm working and have ds during his school holidays.

Please help

AOD

[athene1399]

I think you're allowed to go NC with them if that's what you want. I don't feel that you have an obligation to even respond if you do not want to. If they want to see DS, they have to go through your ex for that. Things may have been different if they made an effort after the breakup to stay in contact with you, but it doesn't sound like that happened. If you want to know what they want before you decide if you want to to stay in contact with them, you can always say something like "I am busy this week so can't really talk, but can you please let me know what this is in regards to and I will try to make the time to call at some point?" But as I said, that could be more if you're on the fence about staying in contact with them. From what you described, it sounds like their behavior after your split with their son may have burned that bridge. If that is the case, IMO you have no obligation to respond if you do not want to. Don't cause yourself extra stress to make them happy.

[Associate of Daniel]

Thanks, Athene.  I agree with you.

Just thinking it through a little more though; there was never any argument between me and my ex inlaws. They just stopped communicating with me.

It could have been for a variety of reasons. They probably felt they needed to support their son (my uNPD ex) and didn't want to get caught in the middle.

They probably were being fed numerous lies and twisted truths and probably believed them.

I feel, as is my nature, that I should give them the benefit of the doubt, at least until I can ascertain where they're at and what their motives are.

I'd like to think that their argument with their son and his uNPD wife is based upon the truth about the pds, thereby validating me.

But I don't want them in my life. I think I'd be happy to keep them informed from time to time of ds's development etc.. At least until he's old enough to maintain contact with them himself.

But I don't want to have any personal contact really.

I have texted MIL back and arranged to call her on Saturday.

I did that, not so much because I feel obligated, but partly because I want to show them that I'm not the rude person that the pds have undoubtedly told them that I am.

I intend (hope) to go in with firm boundries:

No meeting with ds until the ILs and I have cleared the air.  That's if I feel comfortable with him meeting with them anyway.

No meeting at each others' houses.

No meals. Just a coffee.

Give no information.

Grey rock etc.

I hope I don't lose any sleep over this.

Has anyone else been in this situation?

AOD

[Stepping lightly]

Hi AoD,

I think it may be easiest to firmly understand what is acceptable for you in regards to your in-laws, and it seems like you are working through that already. 

Do you trust them?  If you allow them in, will they sell you out to their son at some point?  If you even pause at the answer to this, I would carefully consider keeping this as low contact as possible.

You have no obligations here, but if you can trust them, and DS can have a relationship with them on your terms, this could really strengthen your situation.   Just think if DS is seeing his Dad's grandparents because of you, and they/Dad aren't speaking, he's going to start putting things together. 

We had a one off situation where the MIL reached out to DH to see the kids.  She still has a relationship with BM, but she lives halfway across the country.  We were in her area for a funeral and had the kids with us, MIL contacted DH and wanted to see the kids.  I was FURIOUS, how dare BM sic her mother on us while we were in town for DH's father's funeral (especially after BM had tortured us during the year we cared for FIL as he was dying and she took every opportunity to force DH to give up custody...it was a nightmare..looking back...I can't even believe it all happened).  After I took a second to breath- I realized it actually was good for the kids.  It allowed me to help DH with funeral planning instead of staying at the hotel with the kids.  It allowed the kids to see DH being the bigger person, allowing a relationship with BMs family during his time.  It allowed MIL to see that DH is not the bad guy BM makes him out to be.  Before we decided- my question to him was "Did MIL ever throw you under the bus or testify against you?".  She hadn't, and I figured- her causing issues would only be detrimental to her in the long  term (BM will never travel to BM's home with the kids, so the only hope she has of seeing them them there was to make sure that situation worked). 

Your IL's may have more to lose by messing things up with you, so it could be an opportunity to show that you support DS's relationships with his grandparents.  BUT...don't do it if it will cause you heartache or major stress.

[athene1399]

AoD,

I think it's great you're already planning out your boundaries. Maybe brainstorm what you will say if they/MIL are pushing your boundaries. I find it's better to go into a situation where you have some statements planned/scripted. I know I blank out if someone throws me off with a question so I like having responses ready it I can. Like if they ask for something you aren't willing to do, think of what to say in advance.

We do sparingly interact with xMIL. The two times BM went in the psych ward MIL did reach out to us to update us on BM's condition. Aside from that, MIL has never gone around BM to talk to us about something behind BM's back. I am also not sure I  trust her. When we were in court, MIL took SD to the law guardian the week after we were required to because BM wanted the LG swayed more in her direction. Since MIL assisted with that, I'm not sure I trust her. BM is her daughter after all. I'm sure her loyalties lie there. I guess the whole thing is a grey area. I'm not sure if any of this helps or if I'm just babbling at this point. lol And it's a totally different situation with us as MIL assists BM with her financial issues all the time and in your situation xH and MIL don't seem to be talking.

[Associate of Daniel]

Thanks, Athene and Stepping Lightly.

I have been mulling over various questions etc thay MIL might have and thinking up some answers. Thanks for that suggestion, Athene.

Can you think of any unimportant tidbits of information I could give to her, just so that she can feel a little included and so that I don't come across as stonewalling?

Thos is so stressful and complicated.

AOD

[athene1399]

It's hard to tell without knowing exactly what she will be asking ,but you can always tell her what DS and you have been up to (but more like small talk). Like is he doing a sport or a club over the summer? Have you guys done anything fun together, like gone for a walk? Have you been doing anything around the house? I sometimes talk about gardening. Try to pick something safe that doesn't really matter if she knows about. I would leave out anything that has to do with anything you and you ex have been discussing (like anything to do with court or could have something to do with court). If you guys have gone on a trip or gone out somewhere you can talk about that. i wouldn't mention something you haven't done yet (like if you are planning a trip, don't mention that). That way there's no chance it will get back to your ex and he can block your plans.

Kind of think about what you would talk about to a coworker you aren't that close with. You wouldn't share deep stuff, but more like the day to day stuff that's kind of interesting, but not revealing too much. And if she asks something you aren't comfortable sharing, let her know. "I'm not comfortable discussing that with you. If you bring it up again I will leave..." And if she keeps bringing it up, then just leave.

I hope it goes well!

[Associate of Daniel]

Thanks, Athene.

Well..I rang her.

I was right. She wants some form of contact with ds, even if it's just me keeping her informed occasionally of various achievements etc.

It seems we are on the same page re the uNPD smum. (Finally!) Her words were that uNPD smum is the "common denominator" in our situations, which are the same words that I've been using for a few years.

And she's unimpressed with her uNPD son (my ex). Although she seems to be a few years behind me on her way Out of the FOG.

She says that she hasn't been in contact with me because her uNPD son told her not to.  That I do believe, as he's said the same to me about other people over the years.

I've said no meeting with ds until she and I have met to sort out our history of no contact. And then no promises.

I said I'm happy to send the odd photo and tidbits of info but I'm not comfortable with ds physically meeting her because of the drama that will ensue from uNPD exH.  She pretty much said that herself before I did, saying she didn't want to put ds in the middle.

So she seems to be understanding and on the same page. 

It's nice to be validated by someone in uNPD exH's family, although I am still very wary.

She said that she thinks I've done very well in the circumstances and that she thinks I need a big hug. She also said that over the years, when she's heard of various things I've stood up to uNPD exH about, she's quietly agreed with me and thought "go AOD".

I sent her a couple of photos and told her of some of ds's latest achievements. She seemed genuinely overjoyed on hearing of them.

So the first awkward conversation has been had.  Next is a meeting, and trying to sort out contact between her and ds that has the least amount of reaction from uNPD exH. (Who am I kidding?)

I'm happy for her to text with him at my place. I feel I should ask ds first if he wants to. I know he probably will say no, because he may well feel he'd be doing the wrong thing by his dad.  I told her that and she seems to get it.

Any suggestions?

AOD

[Stepping lightly]

Hi AOD,

Just a quick thought- be careful once your ex knows about the contact.  That is going to be extremely threatening to him and smum, and they may reach out to MIL and try to draw her in, potentially use her against you.  Her reaching out to you for contact with her grandson says a lot about the issues with exNPD, and he is not going to want that to happen.  So- tread slowly, carefully, and even though it seems MIL is on the same page with you, it seems she could be turned back pretty easily by exNPD. 

Glad it went well though, and it always helps to get validation!  Good Luck!!

[Whiteheron]

 
And lots of boundaries. I thought MIL was understanding of my situation, but she suddenly turned on me (different situation tho - I'm not sure how I would respond if she wanted to maintain contact through me). I would encourage you to be supportive, but on guard.

[athene1399]

I think it's great that she seems to understand what is going on and seems to be in agreement with you about the limits (not physically seeing DS and doesn't want to put him in the middle). And I agree with the others on boundaries and staying weary just in case her uNPD son sucks her back in. And obviously, if there is a bad reaction from your ex that you will probably have to go back to NC, but it sounds like she understands this and is okay with it.

[Penny Lane]

I think everyone else here is spot on about boundaries. Once you tell your ex MIL something you can't take it back, and you never know when she'll reconcile with her son.

One way I like to stay in touch with difficult people (or people I have a complicated relationship with) is written cards. It's a very low pressure way to keep in contact. It expresses warm feelings but you don't have to put a lot of emotional energy into it - on either end - unless you want to. So that's one option for how your son could keep in touch with his grandma (either by her sending him the occasional card or vice versa).

[hhaw]

AOD:

It would be nice if your son had extended family support, and love, but that has to be weighed against the chaos PDfather would bring.

I don't think Daniel should have to choose between Grandparent's love, and his father's wrath.  Maybe Grandparents can send cards, and pictures... letters.... and not upset their son?

The real heartbreak is Daniel thinking his Grandparents don't care, or that he's not worthy of love from that side of the family. 

Daniel shouldn't have to choose between really bad choices, IME. 

I wonder what kind of witness MIL would have made at trial.   Not that it was an option, but I wonder what she would have said about her son's choices, and actions.

I hope you find some way to get everyone what they need.   Impossible, but it's a noble goal.   

Hmmm... I wonder if D would SEE a side of his father he's not aware of IF his father had a meltdown over Grandparents reaching out.  I wonder if D would advocate for contact, or just go along with his father?

You're a good mom, looking for the best solution.  Good luck, aod.

[Brooke]

You're such a good mom for wanting to do right by your son. I give you credit for having that conversation with the GM and for establishing boundaries right from the start.

I agree about proceeding very slowly and warily as your ex could turn everything back against you once he realizes what's going on.

The suggestion of having them send cards, etc., is great. I'd assume he'd still likely find out about that as I assume DS would mention it to him. Just be prepared for repercussions.

Wishing you the best moving forward with this.

[Associate of Daniel]

Thanks, everyone.

I'm currently sitting outside the agreed meeting place waiting for my exMIL.

Very nervous.

AOD

[hhaw]

 Breathe, aod.

Deep, and from the bottom of your diaphragm... really pooch your tummy out... slow breaths in, and slow breaths out.

I hope the meeting goes well for you.

[Associate of Daniel]

Thanks, Hhaw.

It went well.

Nearly 2 hours. I was a wreck for several hours afterwards.

I won't go into many details. (Too many to even remember, anyway.)  But it seems uNPD exH is isolating himself (being isolated by his uNPD wife) from his entire family and all of his friends.

ExMil has blocked his uNPD wife on email as a result of her behaviour.

She agrees that if we ask Ds if he wants to have communication with her it puts him right in the middle. (If he says yes he's betraying his uNPD Dad. If he says no he's hurting his Nanny.)

But she came up with a great idea of her sending a message to him via an online game they both play.

She'll do that today. But he rarely plays that game now so it may be a while before he sees it.

She agrees babysteps are the way to go.

She says she gives ds 6 months at uNPD exH's house before he wants to come home to me.

So, I'm being validated, which is nice after all these years. But why do I feel so sad?

Probably because the whole situation is so sad. And uNPD exH seems trapped by his uNPD wife, is not happy and seems destined for a lonely end.

I think also because, much as it seems we're now on the same page, I don't really want the ex inlaws in my life at the moment.

Our relationship would take time to re establish and redefine.  And I don't think I have the emotional energy to do that.

I've taken a huge beating in the last few months and am staring down the barrell of losing my ds to the pds at the start of next year.

I have enough to survive the trenches each day but I don't think I have enough for this.

Thanks everyone.

AOD

[athene1399]

It is a very sad situation, AoD. I'm glad you made it through the meeting. It's good that you and xMIL are on the same page about things. And if you aren't ready to stay in contact with her, you can tell her "I have a lot on my plate right now, but maybe once some of the court stuff settles down we can revisit our relationship if we choose to have one." Or something like that.  It sounds like she is very understanding.

[Emmy]

You are very brave to go ahead with the meeting, I can imagine it must have been quite stressful.
It is sad to hear that your son will have to live in such a dysfunctional setting when he moves to live with his dad. You certainly do not want that for your child. On the other hand, he might come running back to you.
Hopefully he will not be too damaged in the process.....
Such a horrible situation for you as well, it feels so unfair that someone who is not even related to your son, has that much influence on everyone around her.
I think it is very good that you were being validated by your exMIL, even though you have no desire to have her back in your life.
I hope she and your son could have some kind of contact in the future.

[hhaw]

AOD, that validation from in laws might be very valuable in the coming months. 

Better to have access than not, IMO.

About D spending more time at his father's house.... D might begin repeating negative things his father and sm SAY about you, and other people. 

I'd be super prepared to respond without emotion... keep it neutral, but put proper boundaries solidly in place, and enforce them without hesitation.  D should't be rude, or judgemental without getting called on it immediately, and with consequences. 

I think it's easy for kids to be critical with the parent who's love is unconditional, and consistent.  It's terrible when the kids feel they have to get on board with the PDs to keep the bond in tact, or avoid being punished, inciting chaos.

Just continue being calm, consistent mom, with healthy boundaries in place.   D is what?  12 now?  Kids start pulling away from both parents.  They invest in their peer group.   Create joy, and stay focused in the moment.   Try not to worry about the past or future when you're with him.  Really be present, look him in the eye, and pay attention to NOW.....  keep your head where your feet are. 

Don't worry about the PDdad or step mom.   You can't impact what they do, or say.   You can only impact what you say and do.  These days will be gone before you know it.  When you look back, don't regret wasting time on worry, is my advice.   If I could go back, I'd ask my kids what they thought about everything, then really pay attention to their answers.  I have a journal where I wrote down things they said, etc.  There are gaps during stressful times.  I wish I could go back, and fill those gaps in.