Subtle Manipulation

[Peace Lily]

OK, so the outcome of this manipulation is not a big deal. As those who read my previous post on going from Vvlc to VLC will know I am attempting to meet up with my parents in a neutral place. Last Friday they didn't make it owing to traffic.

There have been a few intervening emails in the meantime including 3 on my birthday trying to get me to Thank them for a birthday card which I hadn't received as I was in holiday and didn't see the emails as they sent to the special inbox I set up !

Anyway, back to the point! My Mum agreed the new meeting place which is a cafe chain on a specific junction of a motorway. She wrote to say this was OK and confirmed in the email the date time and venue using the cafes name but a different town name. I thought, oh well, it would be kind of me to go that but further after their horrible experience last week an d, it really doesn't matter.

I just tried to search on the cafe chain's site for the venue and discover the nearest one is the one I suggested! So I check the email and find I have been manipulated. In one email she confirms cafe XXX and then in another says Just to be clear it's cafe YYY in town Z!!!

Maybe this is good in a way as it has put me on guard for tomorrow. She is still up to her old tricks.! Could she not have said there was a nicer cafe nearer to them or they didn't want to drive so far after last time? Does she fear I'll say no to a reasonable requuest?

If there hadn't been evidence in print I would have doubted myself as this is subtle. I think this has gone on all my life, without me knowing. It makes me feel angry an rather queasy.

The meeting is tomorrow afternoon. Hoping I can keep a cool head. Going to try to be bright and breezy and avoid getting drawn in to anything. A huge challenge I know!

[SunnyMeadow]

How'd it go Peace Lily?

I know what you mean about subtle manipulation. My mom has perfected this through the years. Looking back now, I remember how she used to make subtle remarks about my friends in the hope that I would break away from them and only hang out with her. And the list goes on.

[Peace Lily]

Hi Sunny Meadow!

It was a MASSIVE hoover. I posted about on my other thread about going from VVLC to VLC.

My M was jealous of our friends and especially our relationship with wider FOO. She always criticised or put doubts in my mind about their behaviour towards me. Before my period of NC she was still doing this, for example pointing out I hadn't been invited to an event when I never expected to be. It's not so much a single incident that is shocking, it's more the effect of a whole life time of being "steered" in certain directions and having our relationships interfered with.

[practical]

Subtle manipulation does two things:
1. It is totally deniable by the person doing it with "you are imagining things", "You are misunderstanding me", "You are oversensitive" etc.
2. It is hard to see, we think we are imagining things, so we keep going, keep being manipulated, because there aren't the big bad episodes that we could latch on to as clear evidence of what is going on. Instead we doubt ourselves, disbelieve your gut feeling, because why would a parent try to manipulate us, gaslight us?
So subtle manipulation screws with our minds on two levels, how we interact with others like when your M tried to keep you away from wider FOO and how we listen to ourselves, trust our own feelings.

It is hard to find your way out of it, gain enough distance to see it, you have certainly done it.

[WomanInterrupted]

I agree with Practical - subtle manipulation can be particularly crazy-making because it all falls in the land of Plausible Deniability.   

If you say anything, they get their noses out of joint because it was JUST a "simple mistake" or "simple misunderstanding" and *you* are making too much out of nothing.   

It's also an extremely passive-aggressive way of maintaining *control* - you looked up the addy of the cafe you were to meet at, only to find your mom changed it to a cafe closer to her.   

The only way to combat it, IME, is to meet it head-on, bluntly - while being low-key. 

Mom:

I looked up the addy of the cafe, and that's not where we agreed to meet.  (Addy of original) cafe works better for me.  Please let me know.

If you hear nothing - don't go.

If she says, "Oh, it was a simple misunderstanding..." and tries hand-waving it away, but *doesn't actually answer your question* - don't go.   

If she says, "That cafe works better for us." - you've got a choice.  You can accept the change, or decide it doesn't work for you.

Whatever your decision, be as low-key as possible:  "Sounds good..." or, "Let's choose another cafe.  That one is just too far."

*Anything* other than suggestions for a meet-up should be ignored, especially if there's moaning about you being such a prima-donna, you're making things more difficult than they need to be, you're SUCH a special snowflake, or "You won't drive the extra X miles to meet us?  That's disappointing.  We ARE your parents, after all!" 

That's just more manipulation to get their way - if you choose to communicate back, stick to, "That's not germane to the point.  How about Cafe X, located at (addy)?" 

Anything other than an answer of yes or no is to be *ignored* - and if the address is changed *again* - I'd send back only, "This is getting too difficult.  Let's revisit the topic in a few months." 

That's the *only* effective way I've found to handle it - otherwise, it's like trying to nail Jello to the wall.   

[practical]

May have posted this link before in one of your threads, if not, it is really helpful in understanding emotional abuse:
https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=78963.0

That's the *only* effective way I've found to handle it - otherwise, it's like trying to nail Jello to the wall.   

Agree, and my success rate with nailing jello to the wall is far better than with getting F to stick to any plans, agreements etc. 

[StayWithMe]

*Anything* other than suggestions for a meet-up should be ignored, especially if there's moaning about you being such a prima-donna, you're making things more difficult than they need to be, you're SUCH a special snowflake,

My response to that is "Here, I was thinking the same about you."

a couple of people have tried that "I really have to be careful about what I say around you."  the above works perfectly in so many situations.

[Peace Lily]

I think you have great insight Practical! Yes it is exactly that "plausible deniability". I only properly saw it because email is the new mode of communication with my mother (since I have them lessons in how to use the Internet). I think my Mum probably does this all the time and not just with me.

I agree with you Womaninterrupted, that it is totally passive aggressive. My mother's behaviour has always been about using manipulation and often small amounts of emotional blackmail to get her way (usually about seeing me, but also in the past to manipulate me into getting her granddaughter to respond to messages \ go and see. her).  Once in a while when she gets triggered the passive aggression and can reach crazy heights. That's how I finally came Out of the FOG.

WI, your post describes perfectly how to maintain a strong boundary. Thank you for that. I can see I let that boundary go ( meeting already happened) and made up excuses in a co-dependent fashion (" they are elderly, I shouldn't insist they drive so far" , it WAS a much nicer cafe", " if I challenge it won't go well and the meeting won't happen"). Yikes I just realised this is what I did!!! Though it's only a small thing, I must still be a bit FOGGY when it comes to policing my boundaries.I

PS I love the image of nailing jello!

[goofycrumble]

My mother's behaviour has always been about using manipulation and often small amounts of emotional blackmail to get her way

Peace Lily, just interested why do you continue to have your mother in your life if she is causing so much anxiety? I know you want contact with your father but if he truly enables your mother, he needs to be held accountable for allowing her to upset you or behave in such an overbearing way.

Strong boundaries are really hard I know. Medium Chill or Grey Rocking is really the only way if no contact is not an option but WI was right don't let your boundaries go if you can help it. It's really hard to avoid making those co-dependent excuses. That's the hook used to reel you in. I totally get it, it happened to me all my life. It's the consequence of being raised by crazy. Be like WI and be stern in regards to what you get involved with otherwise you'll get sick. Keep repeating to yourself you can't light yourself on fire to keep crazy warm. I do this to get past guilt and obligation.
Hugs xx