Effect of British culture on PD / non-PD behaviour

[carrots]

A question for British members of the forum who are a fair bit along in their healing:

My FOO is British though I grew up mostly somewhere else. enF and uBPDM have claimed before when I was more in contact with them and still discussing things that it's not part of their culture to pay much attention to emotions or care about self-esteem. Being self-deprecating themselves, teaching children not to 'get too big for their boots' and that kind of thing is British. Is that true? Or are there changes happening in Britain too and FOO hasn't noticed? / doesn't want to notice?

[xredshoesx]

i think you may be on to something- cultural and societal influences are a huge influence on many things.  when i read your post i thought about the 'keep a stiff upper lip' archetype.

[GentleSoul]

I am British and in my mid 50's.  During my childhood it was very much about myself and my siblings not being allowed to feel anything or display emotions.  Indeed, stiff upper lip!   Although as my parents were uPD/alcoholics, it may have been a lot to do with that.

I do notice that people are very much more open about their emotions and feelings now.   Attitudes have moved forwards a lot.  I suspect we are becoming more like Americans in openly talking about our feelings.

[Hazy111]

There is something in this.

We act in, Americans act out our their depression. In a sweeping generalisation racially stereotypical type observation way. We "suffer in silence" , where Americans "pass it on".

British humor tends to be self depreciating and we like laughing at  pompous grandiose deluded narcissistic characters, like Bertie Wooster, Hancock, Capt Mainwaring, Steptoe, Rigsby, Basil Fawlty, Alan Partridge, David Brent, etc etc.

American humor tends to be celebrating the quick witted, sarcastic, belittling "put down",  gaining the upper hand over someone. Bilko being a type. Modern Family i like very much, but when you think about it, theres always someone on the receiving end of a pithy put down, every thirty seconds.

My favorite American comedy of recent years was "Curb" and Larry David which fits more the the British Model.   "Blackadder" a very popular British comedy in the 90s fitted the Americam model , but i didnt like so much.

Therapy and talking about your "feelings" is becoming more common in UK , but way off the US levels. It is still seen as weak i believe. Therapy is still mocked as something American, or Californian, but attitudes are changing, slowly.

Americans are seen as more assertive/aggressive and Brits passive/aggressive. The classic response to bad service, is an American will complain directly if they have received poor service, whilst the Brits just wont go back and then bitch about the place or write an anonymous bad review on the Internet!

When im on this site i spell American , rather than the Queens English, whys that? British  eager to please?

[athene1399]

I am American but my great grandparents were from England and my FOO defiantly fall into the "stiff upper lip" train of thought. My dad thinks people make up or pretend to have depression when in reality they are just lazy. I never got hugs from my parents when I was young. We don't say "I love you". I don't think I've ever said it to a family member. My SO and his daughter say it to each other all the time. I think it's weird. I am also very passive-aggressive. I've been told by an American that's  Canadian (most of my family still lives there). Some stuff I do spell the Canadian way and Americans are pretty quick to point it out (I have no idea why it's only some words and not others. Probably depends on if it's a word I learned in school or from my mom).

I think some of it is generational, like my generation is more likely to talk about emotions than my parents. So it could be a shift in culture that is forming. I started trying to talk about my feelings more because some days I am so sick of "turning the other cheek" or burying it inside that I feel I may explode. But I can't talk out loud except to maybe SO sometimes. Usually I just post on here. I find it uncomfortable to verbalize.

How do you feel that specifically affects PDs vs nons?

[carrots]

My dad thinks people make up or pretend to have depression when in reality they are just lazy. I never got hugs from my parents when I was young. We don't say "I love you". I don't think I've ever said it to a family member.

That sounds like my FOO!

Sometimes I have trouble feeling my emotions at all but I'm actually pretty open about them to some people. I can verbalise a lot these days.

I agree with you athene on the difference being generational. I'm not actually American. I've got other English-speaking countries in the mix and I now live in a Continental European country where they definitely didn't talk about feelings a couple of generations ago, but they do now, even some people of my parents' generation do. That's what my parents were referring to: "we're British, we don't act like that, it's not our culture" (paraphrased).

Re: PD / non-PD behaviour, I expressed myself badly. My FOO is definitely PD, no doubt there. I suppose my question is: what does an emotionally healthy non-PD British family look like? Do they even still do self-deprecating humour? Dry humour e.g. in literature is one thing. Self-deprecating humour combined with putting other people (e.g. your own children) down strikes me as being a different matter altogether. I suffered under this type of FOO humour a lot as a child and teenager, and even as an adult. Are they capable of bringing their children up to have some degree of self-esteem? To my parents self-esteem is "new-fangled nonsense" and "American / Californian" Not something almost vital for surviving in modern society. 

Or in your example Hazy "The classic response to bad service, is an American will complain directly if they have received poor service, whilst the Brits just wont go back and then bitch about the place or write an anonymous bad review on the Internet!": Are most emotionally healthy British people capable of acting otherwise? 

Thanks for your input GentleSoul. It sounds then as if my parents are using the 'different culture' card at least in part to excuse their emotionally unhealthy behaviour and attempt to keep me in Scapegoat position.

[Hazy111]

 GentleSoul. It sounds then as if my parents are using the 'different culture' card at least in part to excuse their emotionally unhealthy behaviour and attempt to keep me in Scapegoat position.
[/quote]

Carrots, you are probably right.  I have found that ditching my FOO and importantly PD "friends" as well, has definitely changed my behavior. I am definitely more assertive. Not consciously, it just started to happen.

[GentleSoul]

Interesting discussion.

I find being assertive around "normies" is easy and normal feeling as they accept it with good grace usually.

Whereas  being assertive with a PD often results in them having a tantrum more suited to a two year old.  Hence why we Medium Chill with PD's instead of being healthily assertive with them.

Just my thoughts. 

[athene1399]

I expect my mom's mom had some sort of uPD issues as does my mom now. So I can't comment on what a non-PD "British" family would feel like (I put British in quotes since my mom's family is Canadian and I am technically American). I was put down a lot by my FOO both as a joke and for real. It would be interesting to see if there is a difference in PD behavior culturally. Like are American PDs different from British PDs?  Culture does play a role in how families are raised and stuff.  it's certainly an interesting topic.

[Pepin]

I also cannot comment specifically about British behavior...even though I spent a significant amount of time in Britain.  Definitely seems generational. 

I have mentioned here though issues with PDMil's culture and how she has used it to her advantage to keep DH enmeshed.  I and others often forget that DH is of another culture, born in the US.  When he is with PDmil, he is less *himself* and it is odd to watch him like that.  PDmil uses her culture to manipulate DH and he lets her, sadly.  He has often said: I am loyal to my FOO because they asked me to be.     That's whacko considering that he is a husband and father.  Yet none of this starting coming out of the woodwork until PDmil became a widow.  I have been coping with this craziness ever since. 

The really sad part though is that the parents of my kids friends (who are of the same age as me and culture as PDmil) are behaving similar to PDmil, therefore NOT making it generational....and that is some scary sh*t to be witness to and a huge trigger.  I don't even have words.  It is like they didn't learn from their parents how not to be and are carrying it forward.   

[athene1399]

Unfortunately, Pepin, that is what happens. It's a cycle of abuse. Sometimes the cycle can be broken, but often the children act like their parents did. Then they grow up to be the same type of parent. That happened in my family. Gramma abused mom, mom abused me. Mom even hated the abuse from gramma, but when she thought she was doing the same to me, she got really defensive and blamed me more. Like she threw it back on me. I was depressed for no reason according to her, and then got in trouble for being depressed. You would think that doesn't (or wouldn't) happen, but it does.

[p123]

One thing about Britain or at least certain parts is possibly a bit of a backward attitude with the older generation.

I'm born and bred South Wales Valleys. Albeit only 15 miles from our capital city, Cardiff, sometimes its like another world. And my Dad is typical.

Men are men. Women do as their told. No such thing as stress - you didn't have it as hard as I did or your grandfather did. (The valleys were traditionally a mining/heave industry area). Worse still - you don't put your parents in a home. Its embarrassing not to be able to cope alone. You only go to a "home" to die.

[carrots]

No such thing as stress - you didn't have it as hard as I did or your grandfather did.

That sounds familiar, though FOO is not from the Welsh valleys, but from various regions further north. Actually in my FOO it's not having it as hard as M or GrM had it since they both had/have enabling husbands.

[p123]

No such thing as stress - you didn't have it as hard as I did or your grandfather did.

That sounds familiar, though FOO is not from the Welsh valleys, but from various regions further north. Actually in my FOO it's not having it as hard as M or GrM had it since they both had/have enabling husbands.

Yep. I guess a lot of areas would be the same. Where he lives is only 15 miles north of Cardiff the capital but its like another world

[Julian R]

Hi

This is an interesting thread and I would like to contribute.

I am English - middle aged and grew up in a family where i did not really learn to express emotions - even opinions.  Yes Brits can be perceived as reserved but this is far from a generalisation and certainly there is a heritage of stoicism from past generations and this was i feel reinforced by the experience of the  2WW and its aftermath - times were very hard and maybe the stiff upper lip served well for those times.

I also agree that things are steadily changing.  I have seen it in my lifetime and I agree there is a big difference between generations.

Mental health used to be a very taboo subject, it is becoming less so - but needs more progress but work is going on to change attitudes and to make more help available.

I would like to add to comments about "mixed" marriages.  My uPDw is from another European country where especially in the south the culture is different.  Cultural differences have caused problems but when I suggest to my wife that I have found a particular behaviour hurtful or problematic she has often used the "excuse" that it is just her culture.  Now, I have to understand that there is an element of truth to this but I did live for many years in her country and know many others from the same region and whilst they to a degree bear some of the cultural characteristics, in my wife they seem to be far more intense, sometimes blown out of all proportion.

So I wonder, and invite comment, whether having a PD serves to actually amplify or worsen cultural traits compared to what may usually be found.

Another odd thing about my wife that I find difficult is that she can justify her traits as being cultural, as if it is an excuse, but if someone treats her in the same way she finds it difficult, she gets offended or hurt.  For example my wife can complain for hours or days on end about something but if I begin to complain she will soon put me down.  She can be very direct or frank in offering advice or criticsm which can sometimes be quite hurtful but if someone does the same to her she will take int very badly much of the time.

[athene1399]

Another odd thing about my wife that I find difficult is that she can justify her traits as being cultural, as if it is an excuse, but if someone treats her in the same way she finds it difficult, she gets offended or hurt.  For example my wife can complain for hours or days on end about something but if I begin to complain she will soon put me down.  She can be very direct or frank in offering advice or criticsm which can sometimes be quite hurtful but if someone does the same to her she will take int very badly much of the time.

IMO individuals with Cluster B PDs, like BPD, NPD, or HPD, very easily feel vulnerable, defective, or offended which leads to their defense mechanisms being triggered. I think they do not realize that the triggering behavior is often behavior they exhibit themselves. But most of my research/reading/class work focused on presentation of symptoms in Americans. It could be that when someone offers your wife advice she sees it as a criticism, of her not being good enough. IMO there's a lot of deep schema-type issues driving the behaviors of individuals with PDs. When these are triggered, like when your wife feels defective, the defense mechanism behaviors take over.

[Julian R]

IMO individuals with Cluster B PDs, like BPD, NPD, or HPD, very easily feel vulnerable, defective, or offended which leads to their defense mechanisms being triggered. I think they do not realize that the triggering behavior is often behavior they exhibit themselves. But most of my research/reading/class work focused on presentation of symptoms in Americans. It could be that when someone offers your wife advice she sees it as a criticism, of her not being good enough. IMO there's a lot of deep schema-type issues driving the behaviors of individuals with PDs. When these are triggered, like when your wife feels defective, the defense mechanism behaviors take over.

Thank you Athene for these helpful insights.  I have observed that my wife will sometimes or often take advice badly or interpret it as criticism, even aggression and this has caused a lot of problems in the work place where managers have sought to give advice or suggest solutions on issues raised, which often she will not like and then take it very personally and badly and arrive at unfair conclusions about people.  I observe also that taking advice from males in positions of authority is the worst (father abused her badly), from other people it might just be accepted.  I find it odd also that if I offer advice it is often dismissed but that someone else (say a neighbour or friend) then gives the same advice it might be accepted - weird. Anyway, I will stop as this is not the theme of the thread, but thanks again for your insight.

[1footouttadefog]

I think these differences are regional and generational depending on the family.

Here in the USA, there are regions with a lot of the culture of a particular group or groups of Europeans still in tact.

My parents were from the Mid west. I can relate to a lot of wuat I have read here.

My father was only spoken to be his grandfather on a couple occasions because children were to be seen and not heard.

I have elderly German friends and see an even more severe version of what I read coming from England.  One man who I am close with will express his feelings to me and gripe and even cry about stuff, and I am pretty sure he plays it all tough at home because that is what is expected.

I think disfunction and tue abuse cycle explains why some families move away from the "tough" approach and others stay unchanged generation after generatiin.

I try to examine these various cultures with my kids and we talk about the pros amd cons of each and what positives we can take away and what negatives we can avoid.  We also discuss the historical timeline for such groups and generations and what events and conditions they lived in that shaped them.

War, famine, dictstorships, economic ressesion....
 

[TriedTooHard]

This is a very interesting thread.  I'm not British so I haven't commented until now.  I am first generation born in the U.S. and often admired the "stiff upper lip" aspect of British culture, along with the subtle humor.

My FOO comes from a culture where drama and being loud is valued, and now here we are in the U.S where we're supposedly "#1".  I had my fill of this and would often turn to shows on BBCAmerica for some much needed escape.  WWII drove my relatives out of Europe and I'm glad they didn't get on a boat to Brazil or Argentina, like a lot of their cousins did, but often wondered if life would have been better if they had chosen Canada, Australia, or a British country instead.  I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.

Coming Out of the FOG has helped me see the ups and downs to all of this.

From Julian R:

So I wonder, and invite comment, whether having a PD serves to actually amplify or worsen cultural traits compared to what may usually be found.

I think it does. 

[carrots]

Some new insights into this. A good few months ago I read a young Scottish man on himself "Scottish men don't show their feelings" so things had been difficult for himself. He was referring to painful emotions. ime it's OK for them to show anger though. Somewhere else I read that men from the exact Scottish city enF comes from cover up all emotions with humour. Until their anger comes through, I suppose.

I hadn't written up until now that part of FOO is Scottish. I've often been too worried about being identified on here by FOO. It's highly unlikely they'd ever find a forum like this, far less read anything.

What has been even more telling is the behaviour and words of a number of UK politicians in the last few months. The ones I'm thinking of keep reminding me of B1, though B1 doesn't really identify as British. Like me, lives in a different country, grew up mostly in a different country. My FOO is not part of the social strata from where many of these politicians come, we didn't go to those types of schools, didn't move in those kinds of circles, we're not from down south anyway - even the English parts of the family are from way further north. Yet a fair bit of the political behaviour going on makes me spontaneously think of B1, F and M.

I'm not sure if I'm making a lot of logical sense here but it has become crystal clear to me now that FOO's "but we're British. We can't act otherwise" (paraphrased) is at best an inability to see that not everybody in the UK acts the way they do (though a lot may do). It goes back to: FOO are narcs, they're gaslighting, they prefer to 'win the argument' than find any kind of consensus.