Forcing adult decision onto kids

[Whiteheron]

stbx has decided to move out of the house he loves and repeatedly stated "I'll die here!" about.  He blindsided me with this revelation during mediation a few weeks ago.  He's claiming that the house is too much for him to handle - apparently he just fired his cleaning lady. He hasn't kept up with the landscaping and it looks horrible, but that's for another post (house is in my name).

So he's been taking the kids house hunting. They've gone and looked at a small handful of houses over the last week or so. Yesterday they saw one they all seemed to like and stbx tried to sweeten the deal by saying "it's closer to mom's house!" 

That aside, he's now told DD12 that whether or not they move to this house is up to her and she has to let him know her decision today. As you can imagine, she is beside herself with panic and worry. She's been texting me all morning about her concerns. I told her it was an adult decision and that she was not responsible for making it, her dad was. She could certainly tell him if she liked it, thought it was ok, or if she didn't like it, but that the final decision was not up to her. But she's panicked because he will put her under the spotlight and force her to decide. I feel awful for her, but there's nothing I can do but listen and validate her.

Thing with this potential new house - DD tells me it's just as big as the old one, with a huge yard (that DS will be forced to mow), and a pool. If he's looking at moving to a house that's roughly the same size, large yard (probably tens of acres) and a pool, which will require even more maintenance that his current house - well, it just doesn't make sense. Unless he is repeating his pattern of a few years ago - when he started having increased mental issues and demanded that we had to move because the neighborhood was detrimental to his mental health. So now I have DD being forced to make an adult decision and I'm worried that stbx is experiencing some kind of mental breakdown (it's happened twice before - those of you who have been around a while may remember my old posts). He has issues, so looks around for something to blame - the house, me, the kids, his job...anything to distract from reality.

Wow. When it rains, it certainly pours. 

What I really want to do is to call him up and scream "what's wrong with you?!?!?!" I can't believe he's putting her into this position. He's likely discussed this with his new GC, DS, and is now forcing DD to have the final say. Awesome. 

[Poison Ivy]

I'm sorry you're in this situation. I agree, your ex should NOT be implying or expecting that your daughter will make the decision about the house. Asking for her opinion is one thing, but going from that to asking her to make the decision is entirely inappropriate.  If your ex is having a mental health crisis, I'm doubly sorry.  Children and ex-spouses should not have to bear the burden of an adult's health care problems, at least if the adult is not attempting to deal with them on his or her own.

[athene1399]

I am sorry you and your children are going through this, WH. BPDBM becomes an impulse buyer when she feels down about things. It usually causes issues in the long run. She recently purchased a new car and had SD pick it out for her (I think BM's mother actually paid for some/most of it so BM could drive away with it, so not sure how things will work out when BM needs to start making payments). But she said something like "SD helped me decide which car to buy since she will be driving it too..." so I don't know if part of it is an angle to make SD want to rely on her more. I know I shouldn't figure out what is going on since that just leads to frustration, but part of me thinks BM wanted SD to pick out the car to play into the enmeshment, to impress SD that she could buy the car she picked out, and maybe a small part of BM knows she makes bad decisions so wanted SD to pick it out (because the last car she bought was a terrible idea.) At any rate, I doubt the latter is true because once again BM bought a car when she was unemployed. So she's really learned nothing.

Maybe something similar is going on with the house. Maybe stbx thinks if the kids will decided for him he can't be to blame if things go wrong or they will want to spend more time there if they make that decision. Either way, as you pointed out, it makes no sense since this house will be the same or more maintenance than the current house. I think stbx is looking for a quick fix and instant gratification that won't help him out in the long run. I am sorry he's putting the kids in the middle. That must be so stressful for them. I think you are doing all you can by supporting the kids and letting them know you understand how stressful this must feel. If you call out stbx on this, it will probably only lead to an argument.

[Arkhangelsk]

I am sorry this is happening.

Sometimes we have these horrible, front row seats to the abuse/manipulation of our children.  It is awful that there seems to be so little we can do. 

Right now this is all about your ex making horrible decisions.  I would kindly recommend you leave it in that place, by staying out of it.  Your daughter can see from the interactions you have already had that her dad is doing something painful to her.  This happens and is going to happen again in the future.  You can be a comfort to her.  You can be someone who helps her learn to set boundaries - but you cannot save her.  If you try, you will muddy the waters.  He can then turns this narrative to be about you and things you have done to "wrong" him.

This is what I would say to my kid:
"Honey, it is okay to tell your dad that you do not feel ready to be involved in decisions like these.  It is also okay to tell your dad you like the house/the idea of moving or do not like the house/the idea of moving.  I am sorry you feel under pressure."

Then I would sit back and stay out of it.  I want my kids to understand as soon as possible that their father is erratic.  Nothing I have ever done has stopped that and I do not think anything will.  So I put my focus on having a calm, orderly home life for them when they are with me.

[hhaw]

I'd tell my child that this is an adult decision.  She doesn't have to worry about it. 

She's responsible for is her school work, chores, and finding her passion in life. That's it.

The adults will be just fine,  even if they're making sad choices at times.  People learn from mistakes... everyone makes them, and even if it's not ok.... it's ok.     

You can explain how people have  good, better, and best choices...  and also sad, and happy choices.   

You can ask dd how she feels about this.  More importantly, this is an opportunity to ask her what she thinks about WHY her father is making this sad choice.

She'll be dealing with his innapropriate behaviors for the rest of her life, likely.  She'll need you to help her find ways to cope, and get through it.  I'm curious what she thinks about her father putting this pressure on her.  Really.  If she can think about it, in a calmer state, WHY does her father do things like this, in her opinion. 

Kids can understand some people make sad choices consistently.   They can learn, and grow from these problems.  My kids understand a lot about mental health issues, and PDs, bc of their family history.   They don't feel at the mercy of it, and they understand why some friends make really poor choices that make no sense.   

Your dd is building brain pathways.  I hope you can help her shift into observation mode, and not get stuck feeling anxious as her default. 

It would be better if she could shift into curiosity mode....
"Wow, dad is making a really sad choice.  I wonder why he does that.  (insert better option) would be a better choice, but dad will be OK no matter what he chooses.  I don't have to worry about it. "

[Arkhangelsk]

Curiosity mode. 

I like it.  Seems like an effective tool.

[Whiteheron]

Thanks hhaw - I will try the curiosity mode for sure, and thank you all for your replies - keep them coming! I need different ideas to help the kids cope with these types of behaviors.

What ended up happening is that when stbx approached her about her decision she basically shut him down and told him she wasn't going to deal with this and she wasn't going to answer his question because she didn't have to.

The kids realize their dad behaves inappropriately, that he is irrational at times, that he pressures them into doing/saying things they don't want to- and they do this just to keep the peace (sound familiar?). It's heartbreaking. I hate having to watch from the sidelines and not being able to protect them from his behaviors.

[cant turn back]

WH, glad your DD shut him down.  Good for her!  The more she does so, the more she will be able to navigate these manipulations in the future.

HHaw, great advice.  Sometimes when my DD16 is venting  to me, when her volcano is overflowing, I just am at a loss for words.  Literally tongue tied.  I want to expose ExH and how he manipulates her emotions with his "poor me" act.  However, if I say anything DD gets very defensive of her dad.  She talks so angrily to me.  Almost like she has seen/experienced (via how her dad used to talk to me) that if you handle me in that way, I tend to clam up.  In those moments it's like it searching for the magic words to A) redirect her emotional response, which verges on disrespectful, and B) somehow shine on the manipulations of her father which is causing her the angst.

[Penny Lane]

WhiteHeron, I physically shuddered at "it's closer to mom's house!"

I love the idea of curiosity mode as well.

I think the good news, and it's REALLY good news, is that DD is responding to his stuff in really healthy ways. So be proud of yourself! You've done a good job so far teaching her how to set boundaries.

In the past couple weeks I've basically re-read all the parenting books I own or have ever checked out of the library because we've been having our own issues. And the skill that I always come back to is the very basic, first skill in How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk. And that is helping the kids identify their own feelings and helping them accept it. In your case I think that means a lot of affirming her feelings that this isn't right. "You sound panicked about your dad's question, is that how you're feeling?" And then you can connect that to the curiosity mode. What is dad doing, why does he do it, how does it make me feel and then hopefully ... "what's the best way for me to handle it?" Although like I said, I think she's handling it as well as possible! I know it kills you to not be able to stop your ex from doing this to the kids, but you really are doing the next best thing which is to teach them how to deal with it.

can't turn back I have a book recommendation for you too if you want to hear it! Have you ever read Coparenting with a toxic ex? It really helped me figure out what to say in our recent terrible conversation that sounds like it was very similar to what you are describing. I think the key is, again, validating their feelings FIRST and then moving on to correct the misinformation. And that book really guides you through how to do that.

[Arkhangelsk]

Coparenting with a Toxic Ex is the best.  I think I will go re-read it.

One of the pieces of advice I took from it is that we have to find places for our sad and not display it to the kids.  They need us to validate their feelings and help them with solutions, but not burden them with the pain we have in watching them deal with how much it sucks to be parented by someone who hurts them. 

Also, my therapist has promised me that they are getting some benefit from learning all the skills they need and that they will be just fine.  I hold onto her comment about that.

[Brooke]

I hate having to watch from the sidelines and not being able to protect them from his behaviors.

This is how I feel about my niece with her uNM.

But you are protecting them by teaching them how to deal with their father. Well done to your daughter - it's very brave of a 12 year old to stand up to her father like that! 

[hhaw]

WH, so glad dd is learning about boundaries, and how to enforce them! Whoo hoo!  She'll have that skill with her father, and in all aspects of her life.

YES!

About not being able to protect kiddos from toxic adults/parents, etc... that's something I've had to work on.  For so long, I haven't been OK when the kids are suffering.  That's too close, and I realize my wellbeing is tied into theirs.  Too close.  Lack of boundaries.  I need to trust they'll be OK, stay emotionally distanced enough to BE OK myself, and , help them find their intuition.  Help them trust that intuition. 

Asking kids what they think, without judgements (any at all) is so helpful.  Repeating back to them their exact words helps them feel they've been heard.  I was repeating in other words, but I'm assured by many T's that exact wording is necessary so just get on with it, and I do try.   I respect and trust the girls' Ts.

I've discovered tapping as a tremendous relief recently.  I'll be tapping in front of the kids, when I'm dealing with stuff. 

I'll be asking if they want relief, when they're feeling stress/pain, then tapping and expecting them to join in.  I don't expect they'll do it all the time, but I expect they'll begin to tap, bc they want to fell better, and notice I'm feeling better bc of it.

The basic template for tapping, that's been working for me, is tapping 8 points on the head, face, chest and under arms while repeating the stress TWICE... to tap into that program in the brain.  Then tapping over the relief I'd like to have, many times... 10 or 20 times in the same pattern.  I verbalize expectations.

I went from an 8 - painful stress - to a zero last week.  Like alchemy, or flipping a switch to OFF, and it hasn't returned in any way.

I wish I'd been taugtht how to meditate, and tap when I was a young child.  I hope I can teach my teenagers. 

If not, I can model how to deal with stress in healthy ways.   At leat they'll have that resource.