Kids repeating PD's rationalizations

[Penny Lane]

The kids have been doing this thing lately (especially DSS11) where they will tell us something their mom did but first repeat all of her rationalizations and justifications.

So for example, apparently she rear ended someone. They don't just relay, oh we were in the car with mom and she hit the person in front of us. It's, okay so we were driving on the highway and all the cars were going really fast but the car in front of us slowed waaaaay down for no reason (um, probably there was traffic?) and then mom couldn't stop in time and she bumped into them but there was only a little dent and then they yelled at us for no reason!

For what it's worth, I was rear ended with DSS in the car. DH emailed BM to let her know and when she called to talk to DSS, the way he relayed it to her was almost exactly word for word what I said to DH. So maybe he just doesn't have the words to explain this scary event and he just borrows those words from the adults?

The justification thing happens with a whole variety of things but right now I'm drawing a blank on anything not car-related (now that I think of it she hits things a lot). But you get the idea.

The thing is, I get it, sometimes you make mistakes. Rear ending someone isn't a huge deal, in the scheme of things. But rather than just say "oh whoops I did something wrong," she is telling this elaborate story about why it's not her fault. And what worries me is that the kids are repeating it without really thinking about it. It seems like this sends the message that when you do something to someone you can find a reason to not accept blame. I also worry that they won't understand that if you rear end someone, you are pretty much always at fault, legally and financially.

Obviously we don't want to be like WELL YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT HOW IT HAPPENED. We weren't there, after all. In the example I mentioned I think I got a little heavy handed in my response, not necessarily blaming BM but getting kind of like HELLO THIS IS A TEACHING OPPORTUNITY.

Has anyone found a good way to respond to stuff like this? Maybe wait awhile and then drop it into conversation some other time? Maybe just let it go? I hope they see it when we take responsibility for our mistakes and try to make things right. If it were anyone else we would use it as an opportunity to discuss personal responsibility and our values, but maybe it's just too sensitive when it's their mom.

[eyesopen]

My daughter, 5, repeats justifications from her mother as well.  After being pulled over for speeding or suspected drunk driving several times, the blame always ends up on the police judging her based on the car she drives (a little 2-door sports car in a color that stands out).  Never mind the fact that she always speeds, tailgates, doesn't come to complete stops at stop signs....  She's gotten several warnings and one ticket for speeding (double the limit in a school zone... and she's a teacher).

The story I hear from our daughter is that the police pick on mommy because of her car and daddy doesn't get pulled over because he drives a boring wagon.  I just try to slip in some comments about safe driving when we're together in the car - not calling out her mother on anything, but explaining why we're going so slow (school zone, traffic, etc), why I need to stop/look/wait at intersections, or why I can't look at what she's trying to show me in the back seat while I'm on the highway - all safety focused.

I think seeing these situations as teaching opportunities is a good way to respond.  Not necessarily an immediate or direct response with a "let's talk about this" attitude, you don't want to outright contradict or condemn the mother's actions (unless she's being dangerous), but over time drop some hints about better/safer ways to do things.  Without mentioning BM or her actions that put her in bad situations like rear ending people, focus on teaching the good habits that can prevent rear end collisions or whatever the issue may be.

The kids may not connect it directly with their mom's behavior, but they'll at least have a foundation of knowledge so they can see her actions more objectively.  If you do connect it with the mom's behavior, they may end up telling her "you shouldn't have been following so close" if she rear ends someone again.  That could make things worse, depending on her unpredictable response to being criticized like that, so it's probably best to keep things subtle.

[Brooke]

I think seeing these situations as teaching opportunities is a good way to respond.  Not necessarily an immediate or direct response with a "let's talk about this" attitude, you don't want to outright contradict or condemn the mother's actions (unless she's being dangerous), but over time drop some hints about better/safer ways to do things.  Without mentioning BM or her actions that put her in bad situations like rear ending people, focus on teaching the good habits that can prevent rear end collisions or whatever the issue may be.

We tried to do the same with our nieces. And when they outright repeated something nasty their mother said about us, we literally just said "well that's not a nice thing to say about someone, is it?" and just moved on.

Our nieces are adults now and trust me, they all see their mother for exactly who she is. Two of them realized it much earlier than the other, but she eventually did as well. It always happens, sometimes it just takes awhile.

[athene1399]

Yes. It bothers me a lot how much SD believes the narrative. "BM is broke because people in her field don't make a lot." In reality BM is broke because she's unemployed most the time. I let SD know how much more that is than my pay (it's about 10 grand more a year and SD knows I do not complain about being broke). If she talks about more excuses (like is pushing back on what I am saying, I let it go. I don't agree or disagree. I just let it go. ) Then we talk about how I am able to save money with what I make, talking about impulse buying, needs vs wants, how to put away $10/week and it adds up.

I don't know if anyone remembers the neighbor thing. The last two neighbors BM had trouble with, like screaming matches, police being called. SD: "The neighbors are such jerks." Turn that into "How do we deal with high conflict people and how can we decrease that conflict?". "If someone says something mean to us, should we scream back?" I'm sure BM played a big role in the conflict, but instead we turned it into how to talk to people we may not like.

in your situation: "Accidents do happen, but here's some ways I try to prevent them: don't tailgate, don't drive distracted, don't speed." But I would bring it up later, like when something similar almost happens to you. Like "I made sure I kept a safe distance to prevent an accident". Then discuss safe driving. I would be afraid that if you talk about it now, it may sound like you're accusing BM of driving bad. So save it for when you are driving with the kids or see another driver do something dumb.

You just have to find a way to talk about it neutrally so it sounds like a situation separate from what BM did/said. That way it doesn't come off as "BM is wrong..." Sometimes I wait a few days and something else comes up in conversation that is similar, then I bring up other ways to think about the problem. SD usually says "I never thought about it that way..."

[hhaw]

I think we teach kids how to figure this stuff out when we take responsibility for our own mistakes, explain what we did wrong, and what we'll do to correct it.   When my kids were little, I used to ask them for suggestions, and they always chimed right in. 

You could apply that to anything... PD's driving, and running into other cars, etc.  There are rules for driving X number of  feet behind other cars.  That changes with the speed we're traveling.  You can make that lesson about driving, in general, and not point to the PD at all.   I think the kids will be able to connect the dots without bringing their mother into it.  You can't bring the mother into it.  You have to always speak about her with compassion, sans any judgement at all, IME. 

The kids can come up with their own solutions, and suggestions for handling things.   It's cool to see them consider good, better, better, best choices.  It's cool when they look down the road, at consequences, and connect those dots.

[Latchkey]

Yes, this was something I saw in both my Bio and Step kids (both sets had PD parent) in relation to cars especially. I think there a lot of laws around cars and lots of ways to get into trouble.

1 example and there were literally a dozen I can remember in writing this----    I remember one time after my ex got pulled over or had some issue because of an expired plate I took my D's with me to renew my license plate sticker and had them watch me put it on my car and explain that their Dad could also go into the place I did and get a sticker for his car. They were 6 and 8 yo at the time. They were like , "oh" and then likely forgot about it but just having me model the whole car ownership-safe driving- dealing with mechanics- DMV etc was a good counter balance to the crazy drama of their PD Dad.

Now both of them are experienced drivers. I think just re-enforcing the car stuff, taking them to the mechanics, through the clean air tests, take them to the DMV even. Just keep exposing them to the different aspects of being a safe driver in a boring, matter of fact way to take the drama out of whatever their PD parent is doing.

[athene1399]

I think we teach kids how to figure this stuff out when we take responsibility for our own mistakes, explain what we did wrong, and what we'll do to correct it.

I'm going to second this. Teaching them that everyone makes mistakes and that is it okay as long as we work on how to do better next time is good. And owing up to our mistakes.

Good point, Hhaw!

[Penny Lane]

Thanks everyone, good perspectives, all.

I think I just need to ease up on how directly I tie my statements to their mom's behavior (like, don't at all) and just keep making general statements and teaching them things like car safety.

Interestingly, a few weeks after I was rear ended with DSS in the car, he told me that he gets really nervous when his mom puts her makeup on while driving. I just told him that would make me nervous too. I wonder if he ever connected that with her frequent accidents.

I also remembered another example which is that the kids started saying "all bosses are mean" after their mom got fired for the second or third time in a short period. H and I told them that we both like all of our bosses and even found chances for them to meet them (and see that they are normal people). I think that must have been effective because we haven't heard that kind of talk in awhile.

[Arkhangelsk]

Great advice here.

I try really hard not to comment on anything that happens with dad.  I do ask questions:
- "What did you think about that?"
- "How do you feel about that?"
- "What do you think a good thing to do in such a case might be?"

I do not add commentary and I try to keep my face neutral. 

Meanwhile, I explain EVERYTHING about my life and my partner does the same.  I think of it like a nature video - some mama bear teaching its cub to investigate honey combs, lol.  I tell them what criteria we used to pick out our car, how much advanced planning time it took to prepare for vacation, why we buy insurance, how I decided we should not get a cat right now,  why having a list at the grocery store helps save money and my theory on how far in advanced to turn on my turn signal.  My kids respond well to this giant pile of intellectualizing everything, so I am trying to fit a lot of it in before they become teenagers - but by then it will be really normal. 

My parents did none of this.  I had no idea how hard adulting was.  So I figure it is useful no matter what.  But it also illustrates how I think about and decide things and that I do think about things very carefully.  In the end, it generally means that I have covered some discussion about a reasonable way to do things when I hear something shady about their dad.  If not, I have been known to let a week or two pass and then read the kids news articles or show them clips of tv characters about people doing dumb things similar to crap their dad does.  And we talk about that.  Surely they will eventually figure out how intentional I have been in trying to model and discuss what I think are good ways to live.  But, for now, I know the absolutely cannot handle hearing me criticize their father directly and that they really need to come to their own conclusions.   

I have some sympathy for their position.  It must really stink to realize your parent is dysfunctional.

[hhaw]

I think it's likely terrifying for children to realize a parent isn't OK.

We try to reassure kids that all the adults will be OK, so the kids can worry about their own stuff, IMO.   

Learning the lesson.... "Even if it's not OK.....  it's OK," is important, IME.

[StayWithMe]

With the driving example, we know that drivers are responsible for the drivers in front of us ....... so, someone slowing down in our lane is our responsibility to accommodate. 

[Penny Lane]

Thanks everyone. All very good ideas. I suppose it's not the worst idea to start talking to the almost 12 year old about safe driving habits anyway.

Arkhangelsk, I think that's such a good point about teaching them how hard adulting is. I too didn't realize it when I was a kid (despite my parents' best efforts, probably). And you and hhaw are both right ... it must be so hard to realize how not OK their mom is. But I know they are going to have to learn it  no matter what we do. And the best H and I can do is help them through the process.

[athene1399]

When I was about that age my dad would quiz me on the road signs and what they meant. He made a game out of it. Maybe you can do something similar.

I think what you did with the bosses was great by the way! And even if someone is "mean", that doesn't mean you can have an all out war on them (contrary to BM's thought process). We've tried to talk to SD a lot about how to handle conflict in the work place. We did it like "this is how we handle people that we have to work with who may drive us nuts sometimes..." or "what would you do if you worked with someone who sometimes said mean things to you?"

[Poison Ivy]

I like this thread.  Thanks for asking the question, Penny Lane, and for all the responses.