Has anyone found couples counseling helpful?

[capybara]

I'm feeling really down about our relationship lately. We've been going to couples counseling for months, and I do think our counselor is good and has a pretty good understanding of the relationship. (She also works in a BPD clinic.) The anger in the house has come down and we have had times of good emotional connection. But....

* I feel like where he used to be angry, now he is expressing pain/sadness/fear/other negative emotions. I truly feel for him, but it is painful and draining for me too.

* He generally does not tolerate being touched when he is upset. This is very difficult for me if he is crying.

* We are still having highly emotional conversations about 2 or 3 times per week, plus couples counselling.

* I am the one who ends almost all our emotional conversations, and he feels "repressed."

* When I have brought up my negative feelings about our him or our relationship (this has happened twice at counselling in the last few weeks, a big new thing for me), he responds in a very negative way: blaming, angry/avoiding, not addressing what I said. This last time, after several days, he acknowledged that he understood me, but that was all. We also "had to" deal with his concerns first, because he brought them up first. Which is true... he has been bringing up his concerns for years.

* When we have "date times", lately it is so superficial, like going for coffee with someone I barely know. Same with conversations around the house. It is like being with a polite stranger.

* I still want to avoid him most of the time.

*I dread another round of closeness/sex/argument/distance.

Our counselor keeps saying she's hopeful, but I feel like I am slowly being burned out completely.... Last night he made dinner and put bow on a wine glass at my place as a sweet gesture... I felt unsure whether this was the beginning of hoovering and kept my distance, but as he acknowledged this morning, he was reaching out but still felt the same as before, and he ended up yelling at me this morning ... We did resolve the discussion this morning, but I don't feel any better.

Does anyone have advice or hope?  A story of how things got better for them? Or are these problems so trivial I shouldn't even be here?

[Wardog]

Hello,
Unfortunately, I did not find couple's counseling very helpful at all.  One of the most important things for success is that both people are willing to acknowledge their own parts in the marriage difficulty, and be willing to change what's wrong.  My wife was very enthusiastic in sessions when the focus was on me and my "junk," but when our Counselor started challenging her narratives, and trying to get her to see the problems SHE created, she would get extremely defensive, using crying and occasional hysterics to avoid further discussion,  She quit after a few sessions like that, and now refuses any kind of counseling, individual, or couple's.

I have the same problem as you when I bring up my issues with her.  She becomes angry, twists everything around, and throws it right back at me, along with sarcasm and insults.  If I press the matter further, it can build up to screaming hysterics so bad that I worry about her stroking out.

I avoid her as much as I realistically can, while keeping the door open if she decides she wants to really work on "us."   I have continued seeing my Counselor occasionally, which helps to keep me sane.  His advice was to "talk under" her angry outbursts, set and enforce boundaries, and create a life for myself outside of the house.

One of the most frustrating things about NPD, BPD, etc, is that those afflicted refuse to even consider that there is something wrong with them.  It's always "everybody else" that is persecuting them, or trying to trick them, or take advantage of them.  This is not a mindset that lends itself well to couple's therapy.  The key for us is to use the tools from this site to help us cope with and mitigate our afflicted partner's behavior.  "Medium Chill" is the most useful one I have found so far, as well as self-care.  You can't control them, but you can control your  own attitude and behavior toward them.

I wish you luck

[Stillirise]

In short, no.

We've been to three different ones, all of which I found somewhat helpful to me personally.  Although, none of them ever got a glimpse of the full scope of the issue. We never got beyond the standard "communication and intimacy issues" that I assume are where normal couples can find help.

However, when uPDh was called out on stonewalling, not fighting fair, etc., that was the end of that. In his current narrative, it was me who didn't want to go back, when confronted with something I didn't want to hear.   

[MountainGal]

I'm in couple's counseling and I think it's going ok. My BPDp seems genuinely interested in repairing our relationship and that is a big motivator for him. (I did kick him out a year ago, so that was also a real motivator.) We've had counseling in the past that was not effective. We had some counseling last fall that seemed to be going well, then he hugely relapsed on lying when we moved states. This hurt our trust a lot.

I am moving very slowly with him now, but we are talking about living together again. He does genuinely seem to be trying. The change is happening more slowly than I want sometimes, but I am working on patience and learning to make a life for myself that I enjoy here.

When he offers an olive branch, I tentatively take it after checking in on where I am emotionally and what boundaries feel best to me. I have had to work a lot on my anger and learning to let things go. He had had a worsening of depression as he's done trauma work in therapy. It's hard not to get frustrated when he is down or mopey, but his moods are his responsibility. I watch his behavior as the primary area for seeing if he is changing there. It's hard, but it's moving along.

It sounds like your husband wants to repair things, but is still struggling with emotion regulation? Do I read that right?

[notrightinthehead]

capybara your problems are not trivial at all. It sounds like you have expectations which are not met in your relationship. Emotional exchange leaves you drained rather than invigorated and happy. These are indications that you give more than you get. While this might be ok for a while, it is not a good long term plan.
Maybe you could prepare a list of your expectations - maximum (the ones in your wildest dreams, creating hollywoodstyle happiness for you) - minimum, and non negotiable - and ask for them to be discussed in your next couple's counselling. This requires quite a lot of work and introspection. Most of us do not think about what we need from a relationship as this is not considered romantic. Once you know what you need you can compare that with what you get from your relationship. You can set concrete tasks and measurable goals. For example, you feel criticized too much and set a goal of receiving 3 honest compliments a day. Your partner then can comply or not. If he refuses, this will clarify for you how much he is willing to give you what you need.
You have the right to ask for what you want from your relationship. You might not get it. In your counselling sessions you have a (hopefully) safe environment to experiment with negotiating the rules in your relationship.

[capybara]

MountainGal and notright, thank you both for your thoughtful responses. It really helps.

MountainGal, I am so happy that things are getting better for you. And I am happy to hear that couples counselling is helping. It gives me hope. Can I ask you what is the primary area for change that you have asked for?

I do think my husband still struggles with emotion regulation. He is managing the anger, but I feel like the emotional intensity is still there, just showing up in other ways (a lot of sadness, other negative feelings). As soon as I think of saying that in couples' counselling, my head literally starts to spin (on the inside) - I feel sure any statement like that would just get twisted and argued with until I agree it's not a problem. I will say that his behaviour to the kids is more regulated.

notright, thank you for your suggestion about making this list. I think it is a great idea, and I will take my time on it. Hopefully I can complete it over the next few weeks. I really struggle with translating my unhappiness into concrete requests, but you're right, my T should be able to help. I just start imagining the argument we will have over his behaviour and I get overwhelmed...

"Emotional exchange leaves you drained rather than invigorated and happy."

[MountainGal]

Capybara-- Mainly, not lying and being a responsible adult. If you look at my recent posts, you'll see that I struggle with believing him still, but all evidence I have so far shows that he has stopped lying. He still struggles with responsibility, but I see evidence that he is working on it.

We had a conversation this morning about direct lying versus him omitting information. He feels like he is being totally forthcoming these days, but I see a lot of area for improvement. He handled this conversation well--non-defensive, open. Last night he was also good about apologizing when I let him know I was upset and asking for how he could make it up to me. He is clearly trying to validate my feelings and listen to my perspective. This is itself a big shift from 9 months ago when he told me I was expecting too much and asking for too much re: not lying/expecting him to get a job.

[capybara]

MountainGal: That's great! I hope the improvement continues.

[1footouttadefog]

I know it did not helpy spouse and I
 

He used the time to socialize and draw attention to himself.  He woukd then derail the conversations to talk about military related stuff.

If I brought something up thst was a persistant problem at home for the kids and I , he would retaliate.

And like, seeming most pd folks, he learned new vocabulary to use when blaming and circular argueing and chaos manufacturing

Non empathic peopke dont learn to be empathic from couples counceling.  They kesrn recipies of behsvoirs for interacting.  They lesrn processes and formulas that they think should work to get what they want.

Example.  Women dont desire sex from someone they habe unresolved conflict with, they dont desire it when they are tired and get no help or appreciation for there efforts.

A pd husband might interpret this as help with dishes, and tell her if was an awesome meal, and I will get laid every time. 


Its like they just want a way to control and manage the outcome with out knowing the person or actually having a two way relationship with emotional intamacy.

So many pds are avoidant of emorional connection at all cost.  Theu will see counceling as a way to fix tue buttons that no longer get results when they push them.

[Indifferent]

My PDh won't even consider counseling, even with the possibility of me leaving. He doesn't believe there is anything wrong with him. I can't decide which is worse - a partner that won't go period or a partner that will go but then sabotages the process anyway. Sheesh.

Happy for those that are having some success though. That is amazing.

[melw82]

Couples therapy didn't work for us - even though it was his decision and choice of type of therapy!

He would behave totally differently in the sessions, like he was genuinely bringing his own 50% of responsibility to the sessions. But outside of the room he couldn't / wouldn't / didn't know how to do the empathy part of the dialogue we were tasked to learn together.

We tried the IMAGO technique - a specific structured dialogue which is supposed to retrain how your brain thinks and listens to the other. Look it up - it won't take long to find the IMAGO mirroring dialogue. I actually thought it was very good, but then I would because I'm the one with a healthy mind. The protests I had to endure from him about doing outside of the therapists room were like talking to a toddler who doesn't want to try any new foods. He didn't like it, he said it was making our relationship robotic, he felt it was going to kill off anything romantic between us, he said it wasn't how 'normal' people talk.. etc! When it came to the part where he had to deliver the empathy - apparently "I misunderstood the technique, and that the last part was where 'I' simply get to listen and process what I've said for myself" ...  we'd practiced the dialogue in front of a therapist in at least 4 sessions, so he knew exactly what the empathy part was there for. He's intelligent man with language too, so there never going to be the chance he didn't understand what it all meant.

I felt my stomach drop and my hair stood up all over my body when I heard him say that. I think for the first and only time, I think that's when I accepted he was actually emotionally manipulating me and had been for years.

He discarded me within the next few weeks and after one of the most upsetting blow ups we've ever had, after I wanted to know why he hid the birthday card I got him when he parents visited him - that's right he kept our agreed 'trying again with therapy 9 month relationship' a secret from his parents. Dumped me by text message, refused point blank to talk to me or reply to anything beyond that. I did after a week get a message off him stating nothing more than "we need to talk, but not now" and then I never heard from him again! About a month later I find out on facebook that he was tagged as "in a relationship" and changed his profile photo to them as a happy couple ONLY 6 days after his original text to dump me. He didn't remove me as a friend off facebook before doing that and in the 5 years we were together he was very careful / selective of photos of us together! By the way, he's 43 years old.

I guess for some, couples therapy will only expose them for who they really are, I wouldn't want anyone to go through the emotional trauma I've experienced this year from the cruel way he treated me. Use therapy with a full acceptance of all the outcomes of what it could do. For me it was only ever going to be 1 of 3 outcomes: 1) it helps us and we live happily ever after. 2) it makes it worse and we end on an argument. 3) it makes us both realise and agree amicably to end it and move on separately. Turns out there's a 4th option which never crossed my mind, which was his way out of it - discard as well as decimate my character & induce a mental breakdown to prove I'm crazy to justify him breaking up with me. To be fair, I actually lost my mind & character completely after the whole facebook incident (not going to call it a trigger, as I'm sure he did it on purpose). Looking back I sent him some awful things saying some really nasty threatening stuff. I'm so embarrassed, it makes me so sad for myself to not recognise who I was in that time. I'm blessed so much I had an amazing none judgemental friend who snapped me out of that state! I've had 3 different types of therapists so far this year to find myself again. My current therapist is one who deals with emotional trauma, I referred to her as well.

Just be careful and prepare yourself for all outcomes from therapy. That's my advice. Everyone is different of course, I don't want to scare anyone with my sad story. But therapy was never going to work for us with hindsight. And please don't rule out that narcissistic option 4 which completely blindsided me and threw me into a mental breakdown!

Hope my experience helps x

[frustratedanddiscouraged]

We are on our second counselor.  My husband decided our first was incompetent and taking my "side" because after he stonewalled and acted up in session after session she finally got a little impatient and told him he was being verbally abusive.  He refused to ever see her again.

We just went yesterday- in each session, he takes over by listing all the things I have done "wrong." He does so in a very rapid non-stop way to prevent anyone else from speaking. She is quite good at giving advice to both of us, so he doesn't feel like the victim, but it doesn't always work. For example, yesterday, after he dumped on me for most of the session (silly things like me leaving a dirty dish in the sink, or asking him to stick to our budget... things I did 8 years ago, these "prove" I'm terrible, according to him) and then complaining that I enjoy being around other people except him, she pointed out that if "you are nice to someone, they will start responding positively," he adamantly agreed that yes, if I would only start being nice to *him* things would get better. He was unable to hear that the message was for both of us.  I have come to the conclusion that if he acts that way in therapy, in front of a therapist and still thinks he's the victim and everything is my fault, then there is little hope for change. He does not even recognize that he is acting out of the ordinary.

Here is a specific example of one of the wrongs he listed yesterday in therapy: I spent money on a free week-long gym membership. Yes, FREE- but is cost us money because I could take guests and guests cost $10. Guess who was the guest- HIM! 

On the way out, he rounded the corner first and she caught my eye and mouthed "I'm sorry."

I'm trying to sort out my thoughts about divorce and whether it is the best thing to do and how to go about it. We have a teenage son and my husband is already making threats that *if* I file for divorce he intends to take me for all I'm worth, keep custody of our son, etc.

Sorry to respond with a negative approach- I hope your therapy can help, everyone's experience is different.

[melw82]

then complaining that I enjoy being around other people except him, she pointed out that if "you are nice to someone, they will start responding positively," he adamantly agreed that yes, if I would only start being nice to *him* things would get better. He was unable to hear that the message was for both of us.

This is so sad and alarming at the same time! I feel the pain on this one, I too got the "I'm sometimes jealous of yours and your best friend's friendship. I hear you on the phone all the time and you can so easily tell them that you love them" ..