children stressed and acting out

[sevenyears]

The children (DS4 and DD7) have been acting out for weeks, particularly on the days/evenings immediately following transfers. DD7 is already struggling somewhat with anger and aggression issues stemming from her toddler days before she was placed with us, and before the rocky separation. DD7's behavior these past weeks has been extreme. DS4 has been acting up more than normal lately too, and has started biting again. Their behavior reminds me a lot of how they were acting out in the months before our separation. So, something is stressing them again. The triggers I am aware of are: lack of structured days since school is out; one year "anniversary" since the separation; issues in DD7's FOO, which she is transferring onto me and probably H.

Their behavior after this week's transfer was awful. For 8 hours they were running wild through the flat and nothing I did could calm them down. All I could do was try to keep them safe and even that was challenging. I had to wrestle DD7 down from objects so she couldn't hurt herself.  After several hours, I too was angry. At one point, I called my parents in tears. The children thought I was calling the police on them. oh heavens.  During the week, DS4 kept telling me over and over that he loves me - it was like he was worried and needed reassurance. He also kept using angry phrases said by STBX UOCPD H when his sister annoyed him or acted out. She kept using H's phrases too, when DS4 acted out. DD7 also accused me of trying to take them away from H. I don't know what H has been saying lately. Before our separation a year ago, he angrily accused me in front of the children of planning to kidnap them, and his brother angrily told them that if they left in the car with me, I would never let them see their papa again.

I don't know what is going on at H's house during their time with them. I do know that regular bedtime for both and naps for DS4 have gone out the window. DD7 told me that H gets even angrier with them. So, it appears that they are acting out there too. I suspect he has also been winding them up, but mostly through intuition. For example, during our nightly skype call, I asked DD7 to show me something at H' house, she started crying (because I found out she had lied), so H comforted her "because she was angry with mommy," he said. He also told her that she gets allergies at my house after she had been coughing for several weeks (but not at his house).

I want to get help for DD7, and DS4. There is a children's group for children of divorced parents, but they only accept new children October. And, I don't know if they will help DD7 work through the bigger issues, which exacerbate how she is dealing with our divorce. I'm concerned about going to the psychologist at the social agency that they could say I'm too overwhelmed to handle this, and that the children should stay primarily with STBX UOCPDH. I also worry that doing nothing (as my L advises) will backfire. What's best for the children is to get them some help to relieve them of some of the stress they are going through. But, it seems so risky that the long-term legal outcomes could put them in an even worse situation. The judge found me guilty of destroying the marriage, in part, because I moved out of the house - which I did with the children's best interests in mind. That opinion was eventually overturned by the appeals court. I shudder to think how the judge will view me reaching out to get the children help - especially for DD7.   

My L says stay as far away from the social agencies as possible, and project that everything is going well.  My STBX UOCPD H will tell the courts, GALs and everyone who will listen that the children are well-behaved at his place and that it is only a problem at my place because I'm overwhelmed and not competent as a parent/mother.  There is no end in sight to the custody process. This makes me so mad because it is the children who are suffering the most.

[athene1399]

I am so sorry that you have so much going on. It sounds very stressful.

Maybe ask the kids why they think you are trying to take them away from H. And point out to them that you have been separated for about a year, yet they still see H. So you are doing nothing to keep them from seeing H.

I also think it's crazy the L doesn't think you should get help for the kids. Even a good split is still a split and the kids have to adjust. I also think you should be able to say you have some behavioral stuff at home. No kid is perfect and if your H tries to say they are perfect, I would think that would look weird. When we were in court we said SD had normal behavioral issues for her age. Like she wasn't perfect, but it wasn't anything too crazy either. It sounds like your kids are having trouble, but if you want to get them help i don't see why you can't say "It's normal behavioral issues for them adjusting to a recent divorce so I wanted to help them adjust." Just my opinion. Maybe ask your L if you could show it that way to the courts.

Or if you don't want official help through an agency ,maybe you can find a helpful website or book on how to help kids adjust to a divorce. I don't have any examples, so maybe someone can jump in and suggest some websites or books.

[Penny Lane]

Oh sevenyears,


You are going through a LOT and I really think you need some help. This is all so, so awful - what your ex is doing to the kids and how alone you feel. I think you are right to take this stuff seriously. And I think you're 100% right to think that your ex is trying to turn the kids against you.

It sounds like from your posts you're not in the U.S.? My understanding of the court system is limited to the U.S. but here I would be really surprised to hear that seeking counseling for the kids during a divorce would be automatically looked at as you can't handle it. I mean, your ex could sure spin it that way. But you could also tell the story of a dad who's doing things that are really damaging for the kids and a mom who's getting them help in processing a really nasty divorce. If you have a chance to get a second opinion (or if you know enough about your court system to know that your lawyer is right, then accept it I guess). And maybe you can find workarounds, like your DD7 can go see the counselor at the school sort of under the radar?

If you are totally on your own in addressing this I do think there are some things you can do.

First, relax! Your number 1 job here is to be a good parent and to build positive relationships with the kids. You're a good mom, they need that stability and if your ex can get into your head you're not going to be your best self. It's kind of a double bind because he winds them up so they'll be upset, then that frustrates you and they'll feed off your frustration and feel worse. You want to be able to project calm, loving and firm when they're at their worst.

Second, what DO you know about the things he's saying or implying to the kids? From your post it sounds like we know a lot: He says you're going to kidnap them, you're going to take them away from him, you're going to call the police on them, that DD is angry with you. It sounds like he's also having outbursts at the kids.

How can you counteract that? Again, first by being as calm and levelheaded as possible. Second, you can subtly or even not so subtly push back against the ideas he's putting in their heads. If they tell you about something they liked at his house "I'm so glad you get to spend fun time with mommy AND daddy." On transition days "Hope you have a GREAT time, can't wait to hear about it!" Lots of thinking questions. "Why do you think I was calling the police? Have I ever called the police before? Or do I know how to handle parenting, no police needed?"

Third, help them manage their emotions. Have you ever tried just naming it? "It sounds like you are very frustrated right now." "I bet it's really scary to think that mommy is calling the police on you." "Are you telling me that you love me because you aren't sure if I know how much you love me?"

Fourth, help them find ways to deal with those feelings that aren't destructive. One poster on here recommended having a box of papers to rip up when they're mad. We adopted that with the stepkids (I thought there was no way the 11 year old would like it) and I was amazed at how well it works! They LOVE ripping up paper, it's like it flips a switch. Sometimes I'll say to DSS "Do you want to go do something else?" and he'll really calmly say "no, I still have some more frustration to work out." Other things are like, hitting a pillow, yelling as loudly as you can, making an angry drawing.

Fifth, they're probably exhausted - I know my stepkids always have a much harder time (and especially when they were younger) fighting alienation when their mom lets them stay up late and they're tired. Make sure you're redoubling bedtime routine - kids this young really, really need it, especially if they're not getting it half the time.

Some books that might help you: Don't Alienate the Kids! by Bill Eddy and How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk. If you're prevented from getting outside help via counselors maybe books can provide some help at least.

This would be hard for anyone. You are doing a great job, truly. You've already done so much, moving out of the house and into a new apartment. Starting a new wonderful life for the kids. Your ex is trying to do anything he can to disrupt your bond with them (probably to get an advantage in court, to be honest) but you are stronger and more strategic than he is. You can get through this!

[hhaw]

I hope you can ask for help, 7.

From friends, and family. 

If social agencies aren't a good idea, then spending time with normal, healthy people is, IME.   Playdates with families, and friends.  Good routines, even if PD stbx doesn't follow them, you can keep them in place at your house.  Kids want routines, IME.  Kids want you to have control over your world, and routines.

Be calm, and proactive.  Have things planned for kids to do, before they're climbing the walls.  It's tempting to put them in front of electronics,  so have other things in place. 

I say that, but when my niece used to visit (my 2 and niece were all 2 - 4 yo at the time) niece would go through house like a tornado, and my kids would follow her, amazed and entertained.  I felt helpless,  and overwhelmed, but niece had zero routine in her home.   

Bedtime rituals, naps, and meals in your home can settle into place, IME.   That's all you can do.  One of my girls loved reading at bedtime.  It was calm, and lovely after bathtime, and no electronics in the evening. 

If you're consistent, and put a proper routine in place, things should calm down signifigantly, IME.  What do your kids love?  Art?  Baking?  Books?  Plan things, have art supplies on hand,  and things to do ahead.  Be firm, and don't let them see you sweat if you can help it. 

Natural consequences are a good thing.  Don't get  angry.  Don't punish.   Be sad for your child when they're dealing with negative consequences,  and wish for better choices, and positive consequences for them.  It's up to them.  It's not about you or your emotions.  It's about staying calm, and being consistent with boundaries, and consequences.  Follow through,  no matter what, and if you're going to give in.... just give in up front. 

If you can't hold a boundary, it's like gambling for kids.   They don't know when you're going to give in, they just know it's a matter of time, and they'll start pushing all
the
time.

With all the chaos you're experiencing... a good routine will help tremendously.

Ask the kids what they think all the time.   If the kids repeat things the stbx says.... ask the kids what they think about that statement.  Validate them, and remember these days will be gone before you know it. 

Really look into your childrens' eyes, and be present with them. 

I'm so sorry things are so hard, but this is your new normal.  Tactical breathing... breathing in 4 seconds, hold it 4 seconds, breath our 4 seconds, is used by law enforcement and the military in moments of crisis.  It taps into the polyvagal system to shut down fight or flight. 

You're modeling coping strategies for your children.  They're learning from watching what you do.   Remember things are going to be OK, even when they're aren't OK.  It's going to be all right.

[Arkhangelsk]

Oh 7 -
This is hard.  I was there with a 4 and 6 year old and I have so much sympathy for how exhausting it is.  You are getting some good advice here, I think.  I have a few thoughts as well.

Good parents get medical help, including mental health help, when their children need it.  Your lawyer may absolutely know that the agencies you would work with are NOT providing good care, or that the system is rigged or sexist (sounds like it, if they dinged you for moving out when you needed to).  But I would still go back and say, "I need strategies.  How can I get the help I need in a manner that shows I am a good parent."   I would push on this one a bit.

I have run into some moments where the help from social agencies was actually hurtful and others where it helped.  We had in-house mobile therapy for my son for years related to behavioral issues.  I made a good rapport with those professionals.  They helped me immensely with exactly the kinds of issues you are describing.  And they made me feel better about the fact that my ex claimed the kids were perfect at his house, because they told me this was not true (as did the professionals at school).  ALSO - when my charming ex-husband falsely accused me and my new partner of child abuse, those health professionals were instrumental in offering first-person descriptions that my partner and I were engaged parents who followed their advice.  Now - this was good because these folks 1) gave us good counsel that helped the kids - so we followed it; 2) were good people who really connected with our family.  Our court ordered psychologist managed neither of these things, and she was bad news.  So perhaps this is your lawyer's angle.  I think it is worth it for you to dig into that point with him or her.

Outside of that, however, Hhaw is correct.  The solution here is order and routine.

Now, here is the trick.  When you are newly a single parent, there are many barriers to successfully creating order and routine.  In my case, there was the additional barrier of my complete personal inability to create orderly systems.  However, I solved that problem by outsourcing it (which is a thing you can hire professionals for OR just grab a friend or family member with and OCD-like devotion to order and ask them to act as your coach).  In case, I did a mix of these things to help me:
- Become a minimalist.  I donated/threw away/sold the overwhelming majority of my earthly possessions and most of the kid's stuff as well;
- Create systems.  What was left all HAD to have a logical home where it would always live;
- Involve the kids.  I devoted a considerable amount of time to talking to the kids about why we would take the time to do certain things with our stuff and that we would earn video time only by participating in family tidy and organize time and that we would always respect the principle of keeping things in their assigned homes;
- Do this work on a routine.  The kids are less likely to begin to run wild if every day starts and ends and flows with the same rhythm.  Routines are great.  I think all this tidy stuff helps to make them easier to implement, because there is just less to manage and less distraction.  But you could skip the first 3 steps and just focus on the routine.  WHICH is more about order than perfect timing.  I will never get my kids to bed every night at 8pm.  But the steps for going to be look exactly the same every night.

You can use visual graphs, stick charts, bribes of preferred activities - but once the day has a certain rhythm, I think you will see more calm.

Here is the morning routine at my house (all days of the week):
1 - Kid one or two shows up, either together or separate in the bedroom.  There are cuddles;
2- Kid asks what to do to earn video;
3- I point to a list and say - start with these -  brush your teeth, comb your hair, get dressed, put your shoes and book bag by the door, take your meds, eat something if you want it;
4- Kids run around doing these things and checking in until the list is done.  I usually add one more thing like tidy your clothes off the floor or unload the dishwasher;
5 - Kid completes the tasks and zones out on the video machine.  The faster they are at the list, the more time they get before we leave;
6 - I finish getting myself ready and we leave for the bus stop or for the gym on the weekends.

There is similar structure to afternoons were getting organized and getting homework done are part of what earns video.  There is also a conscious effort to schedule physically tiring activity outside.

At any rate, this took a year or two to nail down.  Like I said - it was total chaos at first.  I used to have to coach them through things like going to the toothbrush drawer and getting the supplies and using them.  I used to have to coach ME on not just collapsing on the coach in exhaustion.  Now I do not have to do either.  Behavior and moral are much improved.  But I want to stress - I got help for this.  A lot of it from friends, family and, later, a boyfriend who was good at order and routines and were willing to step in and help me design my life.  So see who is in your network who might be willing to help - even it is just a listening ear as you sort out what structure your days will take.

[Findingmyvoice]

Seven,

I would be surprised if the court viewed you negatively for getting your kids to a counselor.
In my situation, exBPDw was dragging me to court almost monthly with applications for more parenting time.
It was clear that there was conflict and that the kids were not handling it well and the judge mandated that the kids go to counseling.  The mandate of the court should be to do what is best for the kids and in most cases it is best that the kids see a counselor.

I think that even in "amicable" separations the kids will act out after switching households.
The switch is confusing for the kids, different rules and boundaries, different parenting styles and expectations.
In my case it was pronounced with my son and I noticed more fighting / arguing from all of the when they returned home from a visit with exBPDw. It seemed like there was always a deep resentment between them and a ton of unresolved conflicts.
I always devoted a few hours after the switch to talk to the kids individually, have a calm bedtime routine,
I also mentally prepared myself for the switch knowing that there would be fighting on the car ride home, lots of back and forth and blaming, passive aggressive behavior from my son.  I always tried to be patient and calmly get to the root of the problem and ignore whatever behavior was on the surface. 
Whether it was physical aggression, teasing, blaming, it was a result of a deeper issue.  You can't blame the kids for this, they don't really know how to cope with the changes or things that are happening at the other parent's house.
My kids were 12 and 13 when I left so its a much different story than 4 and 7.

The children's services social worker also told me to expect this type of behavior.  She predicted that the kids would have a period of acting out after the separation and its about finding new boundaries and limits.  The whole dynamic changes and they have to settle in to a new way of being a family. It's unsettling for the kids to find a new normal even if the new normal is way better than the old one.

[Stepping lightly]

HI 7!

Everyone here has had great feedback, and I wanted to re-emphasize the routine portion.  When exchanges were a nightmare, we found that having a consistent activity the kids came back to was really helpful.  Make it like "your thing" you guys get to do.  It can be something simple, their favorite meal, play their favorite game, go to the park and play, etc.  Something that they enjoy and can look forward to.  If I had to guess, I imagine all kids going back and forth would have a level of anxiety switching between homes, even in good situations.  By having an enjoyable routine, they know what to expect when they arrive at your house, and hopefully that will help minimize the behavior.  Try to keep it as routine as possible- so their emotions have a buffer before they have to absorb something different.

Good Luck!

[Unicorn Cat]

The ideas on this thread are SO helpful, and it's really encouraging to hear that things have improved on this front for all of you who have offered thoughts. Thank you for this - I was instinctively adding more order and organization to our lives, and I'll keep going after reading this. So many good ideas - I'm tearful at this moment as I feel the hope you're inspiring for me and DS. Thank you 

[sevenyears]

Thank you everyone for your thoughtful replies and support. I haven't been on the Out of the FOG for a while since I was busy and then had an internet "detox." But, now I'm back.

Things are moving slowly here, but they are moving. The meeting I should have had with the GALs/parent coordinators in early July is now rescheduled for the end of August. I'm working with my law firm (my lawyer is on vacation) to craft a strategy in which I can talk about the children's problems and the steps I'm taking to address them and get help. The children have been out of school since the end of June - so much of their routines have changed + uocpd stbxh changed their bedtimes and stopped putting DS4 down for a nap (without saying anything to me). School starts in September and I will push so that my DD7 has access to the counselor. Meanwhile, I will start getting the children back onto their routine with early and consistent bedtimes as we gear up for returning to school.  I have also talked to her doctor about having her tested for ADHD. While her anger has other sources, this may be affecting her ability to control it. And, it gets us access to professionals with whom I can start talking about the larger problems. Also, I've talked to a program for kids of divorced parents about enrolling my DD7 and DS4. Now, I just have to get DD's social worker, and uocpd stbxh on board.... And, I'm working on rebuilding my social network of parents for play dates, etc. So no major breakthroughs yet, but small steps to set the ground for getting my kids extra support and help.