"Nice" versus kind, tuning into our fear and our instincts again

[all4peace]

Years ago I read a book called The Gift of Fear by Gavin DeBecker. I believe he was an FBI agent and he writes about listening to our gut, that when our gut tells us something our brains have already done all the figuring out and we just need to listen.

He also talks about how, especially for women, we are taught to be "nice" and "polite" and "friendly" even to someone who is triggering all our alarms, and how often this leads to a woman be assaulted or even killed.

I've been listening to Oprah's Super Soul Sunday podcast recently, and an episode about life-saving lessons and Gavin DeBecker came up: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/own/oprahs-supersoul-conversations/e/62911647?autoplay=true

My DD is nearly an adult. Soon she will be on her own in this world. I feel much differently about this with a DD than our DS, although I had motherly fears for both of them. I want her to learn to follow her instincts, to be strong rather than "nice", to be willing to look "b!tchy" and not worry about it if it means keeping herself safe.

I am also realizing that she's always been allowed to say no. She's has had "no" respected. She's had boundaries and been allowed and taught how to set boundaries. While we expect respect from all family members to another, she's allowed to be angry, to resist, to argue.

Just recently a strange vehicle drove into our yard, beeping repeatedly. We live in a secluded area, long driveway. The person who emerged clearly didn't come from around here, came right to the door, insisted on shaking my hand when I said I'd rather not (had wet hands). And I gave in and shook anyway. And shook them again when he insisted as he left. He was selling something, he claimed, with raggedy literature to go along with it. Nothing matched. Although I didn't feel safe, I was picking up on a lot of cues and still shook his hand.

Anyway, I'm just reminded again that when we were raised by unsafe people, we have had our instincts trained right out of us. I was never allowed to fight back, not raise my voice, not argue, not walk away. Even raising my hands to block blows led to further blows. I had to fight every natural instinct in me and stand there while I was slapped and beaten. All self-protective instincts were deliberately forced out of me.

So, it has been a long hard road to try to learn them again. And just last week I was shown yet again that I have a long way to go. Another recent thread talked about smiling too much, and I've been realizing I do that, too. Automatic smiling to pre-soothe and pre-comfort the person in front of me, total strangers in a store, for example.

I don't have a question. Just putting this out for discussion if anyone is interested in discussing. It's something I'm going to pay more attention to.

[Andeza]

I get this, totally. Oddly enough not because of my parents but because of working retail. Working retail I had to smile and be interested and be attuned to the customer... Had a coworker once that hated this pervy old guy that would come in the store and flirt with her, but she had to be nice because, well, retail. Old guy up and kissed her on the mouth one day and then ran out. We never saw him again.

I've spent the last two or three years shedding the nice mentality in favor of self preservation.

[SerenityCat]

I was raised by dysfunctional unsafe people also. I was supposed to be nice, invisible, passive.

I'm now learning to be assertive. I have the right to yell and shout and kick if need be for my own safety and in defense of others. Gavin DeBecker is a great inspiration.

I'm good with listening to my instincts and staying out of potential trouble, for instance when I am out walking. But I've been slower in learning how to deal with things like forced handshakes by potential dangerous people.

Now I know that I don't have to be nice. I can apply everything I've learned in coping with PD family members and apply this to the public at large.

If I refuse a handshake and am told that I am being mean, that won't slow me down as I get further away from the problematic situation.

[Andeza]

Technically, etiquette of an older era dictates that a man should never initiate a handshake with a woman, but rather let her extend her hand first if she is so inclined. I've always fallen back on that when I felt uncomfortable. I also find that shaking someone's hand a little harder than strictly necessary (just a little painful, squeeze the bones of the hand together a bit) plus direct eye contact, throws off the potentially predatory individual. Makes them think twice about what they are dealing with and broadcasts confidence.

Also, it's okay to just say no thank you.

Also also... Even with my car sitting in the driveway, I open the door for no one. Just a safety precaution.

[Spygirl]

All4peace,

You just triggered me, lol!

You shined a light on something i do still, and need to stop doing.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

[1footouttadefog]

I read that as a library book years ago, then bought a copy more recently.

I have a really creepy story to tell about that book.  It was originally mentioned and recommended to me by someone I knew, back around when it came out.

Fast forward many years, I was on the phone with the individual and the book came up in conversation.  The individual said they did no know of such a book.  I was surprised and even reminded them of discussions we had etc.  He insisted he had never heard of it I was mistaken and someone else must have told me about it.

I felt a bit of a chill.  The irony of this was not lost on me either.  That the book the gift of fear was the catalyst for fear, that I could not deny due to having read the book, wow. 

I decided to let my contact with this person fade away even more than it had.  Soon after this I was sent text messages by people who lived in the same city as that man. The pics had screen shots of the news with his mug shot.  He had been arrested for a cold case murder.

[HeadAboveWater]

I read that as a library book years ago, then bought a copy more recently.

I have a really creepy story to tell about that book.  It was originally mentioned and recommended to me by someone I knew, back around when it came out.

Fast forward many years, I was on the phone with the individual and the book came up in conversation.  The individual said they did no know of such a book.  I was surprised and even reminded them of discussions we had etc.  He insisted he had never heard of it I was mistaken and someone else must have told me about it.

I felt a bit of a chill.  The irony of this was not lost on me either.  That the book the gift of fear was the catalyst for fear, that I could not deny due to having read the book, wow. 

I decided to let my contact with this person fade away even more than it had.  Soon after this I was sent text messages by people who lived in the same city as that man. The pics had screen shots of the news with his mug shot.  He had been arrested for a cold case murder.

Whoa! And yikes! While this is certainly an unusual situation, it's really instructive.

Anyway, I'm just reminded again that when we were raised by unsafe people, we have had our instincts trained right out of us. I was never allowed to fight back, not raise my voice, not argue, not walk away. Even raising my hands to block blows led to further blows. I had to fight every natural instinct in me and stand there while I was slapped and beaten. All self-protective instincts were deliberately forced out of me.

All4peace, I'm sorry that this was your experience. I also wanted to say "Yes, yes, and yes" to this observation. It is so hard to retrain into a different way of being. For me the default is fawning or freezing. I once had an ongoing work conflict with a (likely PD) supervisor where our boss took my side. However, the boss accused me of "perseveration" in my approach to the conflict. S/he could never understand how hard it was for me to set a boundary and come forward for help. 

I am reminded also that con artists often rely on people being "nice" as well, from GoFundMe frauds raising money for causes that sound great to strangers in parking garages with emergent needs for cash. And many times when I describe turning down these people I will start by saying "I felt badly, but..." 

Anyway, you both are reminding me that Gift of Fear has long been on my reading list. Maybe it's time to finally make room for it.

[Penny Lane]

I love the Gift of Fear. I think a lot about nice vs kind. He also brings up a related thing that I think is very relevant to this board. He says that being charming is a skill not a personality trait. And when you find someone charming, ask yourself, why are they trying to charm me?

He really breaks down manipulative behaviors and WHY they work.

I think it's especially hard for women, and it's so great that you're actively trying to teach your daughter these skills.

[all4peace]

I get this, totally. Oddly enough not because of my parents but because of working retail. Working retail I had to smile and be interested and be attuned to the customer... Had a coworker once that hated this pervy old guy that would come in the store and flirt with her, but she had to be nice because, well, retail. Old guy up and kissed her on the mouth one day and then ran out. We never saw him again.

I've spent the last two or three years shedding the nice mentality in favor of self preservation.

I can see how working retail would train you to respond in ways that don't feel right to you!

I was raised by dysfunctional unsafe people also. I was supposed to be nice, invisible, passive.

I'm now learning to be assertive. I have the right to yell and shout and kick if need be for my own safety and in defense of others. Gavin DeBecker is a great inspiration.

I'm good with listening to my instincts and staying out of potential trouble, for instance when I am out walking. But I've been slower in learning how to deal with things like forced handshakes by potential dangerous people.

Now I know that I don't have to be nice. I can apply everything I've learned in coping with PD family members and apply this to the public at large.

If I refuse a handshake and am told that I am being mean, that won't slow me down as I get further away from the problematic situation.

That is fantastic that you are learning assertiveness!

All4peace,

You just triggered me, lol!

You shined a light on something i do still, and need to stop doing.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Oh no, sorry about that! I need to work on this also.

I read that as a library book years ago, then bought a copy more recently.

I have a really creepy story to tell about that book.  It was originally mentioned and recommended to me by someone I knew, back around when it came out.

Fast forward many years, I was on the phone with the individual and the book came up in conversation.  The individual said they did no know of such a book.  I was surprised and even reminded them of discussions we had etc.  He insisted he had never heard of it I was mistaken and someone else must have told me about it.

I felt a bit of a chill.  The irony of this was not lost on me either.  That the book the gift of fear was the catalyst for fear, that I could not deny due to having read the book, wow. 

I decided to let my contact with this person fade away even more than it had.  Soon after this I was sent text messages by people who lived in the same city as that man. The pics had screen shots of the news with his mug shot.  He had been arrested for a cold case murder.

That is a very creepy story! How ironic!

Headabovewater, if you read it I'd love to hear your thoughts on it!

Penny Lane, I think I need to read it again. So interesting about being "charming." Both enF and enFIL are very charming. enF is unable to keep on his mask with me anymore, but I only saw it drop once with enFIL and I never forgot.

I was having a conversation with a sibling recently. Our gma was not charming. Very straightforward, not very nurturing, but honest and reliable. Our gpa was charming. VERY interested in everyone, and the one physically abusing gma and controlling the family with an iron fist. Almost everyone in the family revered him instead of her. It's very interesting to me how so many people are attracted to charming behavior and are totally unable to see through it to the actual behavior patterns of the person who is being charming.

And also interesting to me, both enF and enFIL were charming UNTIL I started calling them out on their OWN behavior. Then the masks dropped. They could charm like crazy as long as it was their "difficult" wives we were talking about. But point the finger at them? Oh boy, not ok at all.


Anyway, I was recently with female relatives and talking about human trafficking. One woman was telling about her friend being approached in a Wal-Mart parking lot by a strange man who was very nice and charming. Something felt off to her so she immediately returned to the store and requested someone from customer service accompany her to her car. I love that she paid attention to her fear.

[hhaw]

I read THE POWER OF FEAR by DeBecker, and STRONG ON DEFENSE, by Sanford Strong when I was studying tactical self defense, assisting with training law enforcement officers, and women's self defense classes.

Both books are helpful to understand how our biology undermines our ability to respond vs react.  Most of the time we shut down, or attempt to placate a predator in order to survive.  Whatever a predator has done to past victims, he'll do to us.  It's not personal. It's what they do.   

If we learn how our biology is hijacked, train to overcome it,  and to ACT.... we have a better chance of getting ourselves out of trouble, or better still... avoiding it in the first place.

One of the biggest red flags is when a man (or woman I guess) won't accept our NO, and attempts to change it into a YES.  That is a situation you want to resist giving into.... and avoid going forward, IME.  No means NO.  We don't have to explain or defend that answer.  It is what it is, and we shouldn't be shamed into changing it.

We can casually state our NO, and ignore attempts to change it.  We can also scream, and draw attention, and act in a way tha feels wrong, but might be warranted to stay safe.  Better feel foolish than end up in a much worse situation, IME.

We certainly don't want to be seen as easy prey.  Let them see us as someone who won't make a predators day easy.... everything will be hard hard hard if they pick you.  It's a mindset, and we give off signals all the time, all day long. 

Think about the signals you might give off. 

[Andeza]

Hhaw is absolutely right that we give off signals. It's not even something most people are aware of, and the PD people in our lives do try to numb us to it so we won't notice all the bad signals they... Exude. Yep, I think that's the word I want.

The signal I give off is something like make my day punk. I may be small, but I'm a force to be reckoned with. Confidence goes a long way.

[athene1399]

I don't trust people who are nice. I think they want something. I've noticed it takes me longer to warm up to overly nice people. Sometimes I find they really just are nice people, other times they are a wolf in sheep's clothing. My real problem was being attracted to jerks. They didn't hide that they were jerks, but that's all I was comfortable being around for the longest time. People who treated me well freaked me out. Especially men. I'm less suspicious of women.

This is a very interesting thread!

[all4peace]

Interesting, hhaw. Are you willing to share examples of how not to appear too nice? I think I do this habitually and automatically. One thing I DO do is to make assertive eye contact when I'm in a situation where I could be vulnerable, like hiking alone. Then I get my phone out in a visible position and make direct and more-than-fleeting eye contact.

[hhaw]

That's good all4peace.   I think predators are sensitive to how we carry ourselves.   I think they choose victims, a lot of the time, and sometimes it's just opportunity, and bad luck.  You can tell a lot about a person when you look in their eyes, IME.

The kinds of things we trained, and things in the books, regarding how we carry ourselves to be safe....

Not making eye contact on public transportation, or on the street, for instance... we send the message "Not today,  I have no time for you today" and we go go go on about our business, and that's our body language, facial expression, and zero eye contact. 

Sometimes I accidentally make eye contact, and I'm sorry every time.   DUOH!  Sometimes it feels like I'm being tested, or gaged..  Once I met a man's gaze, and it chilled me to the bone..... I'd dropped a contractor  (on parole as it turned out),  and made eye contact with the man picking him up at a gas station.  That look was molevolent, and terrifying.  I felt like I was in danger, even though I was in a public place.     

We're not afraid to speak up, draw attention, tell someone to back off, get out of our space.  Even if we make a mistake, at least we're aware, and able to act.

If we're approached by a person, say.... offering to help us carry groceries into our apartment building with lots of stairs.... we're usually going to smile,  and be nice when we're refusing that help, IME.   We don't want to hurt their feelings, or seem to be accusing them of something, or seem bitchy, so we're at risk of being guilted and shamed into changing our NO into a YES.  HUGE RED FLAG here.... always always always,  just don't take the chance, no matter how heavy the groceries are, IME.

We have choices, and we need to send the message we aren't budging, we aren't going to be guilted into compliance, and we don't give a damn if their feelings are hurt, bc it's none of our business.... tell your story walking, mister.   I wouldn't GO INTO my building if he gave me really awful vibes, btw.

I'd like to think I'd snap his picture while commenting...".SUCH A GENTLEMAN, I'll send this pic to my mom, don't see those every day,"
::click::.
then go in to a business, and ask for help, or call the cops, OR just wait till he goes away, then call the cops, bc I really don't want to invite trouble if I can skirt it... esp since I've had children, but I hate the idea of a predator moving on to other prey.

One of the things we do is freeze or people please when our instincts are screaming alarm bells all over the place.  If we train ourselves to ACT.... even if we end up feeling a bit silly, or make a mistake, we'll be safer.   

An example of that.... my oldest dd16 at the time, her best friend, and I were walking around downtown in a small tourist city.  A homeless man approached  us on the sidewalk,  shouting the police had "cut his friend's head off" and he seemed pretthy combative, and intimidating.  DD's friend and I sidestepped the man neatly, didn't look at him, and kept walking, while DD froze in her tracks, and came nose to nose with him.  I went back, took her by the elbow, and moved her along, like we were in a hurry..... nothing personal... just moving along.  DD said she was afraid the man would get angry at her if she ignored him.  I get that.  I'm a people pleaser too, so I've had to work on an imaginary forcefield.  She'll have to work on hers.   

Once a man (maybe 25yo) followed me (19yo)into an elevator, and then, much to my surprise, began walking with me to my  hotel room.  I wasn't proactive, and actually got my door open before I noticed he was planning to just follow me in.  That sent a shot of adrenaline into my system, and I shut the door, spun around, and headed right back to the elevator and got on.
I went back to the lobby, and told male friends, but I don't think anything came of it.   The guy seemed to be there for one reason, and my instincts, however slow, told me I needed to be alarmed.   

My forcefield is boring, sending nothing inviting or interesting into the world, energy wise.  Just busy busy busy preoccupied, and unlikely to respond,  be impressed or intimidated. 

I hope that helps.

[all4peace]

That's very helpful. Your examples make me think it's time to re-read the book and I'm getting it from my library again. Now I'm thinking my eye contact may not be the best choice. My intention is to say "I see you and I'm not afraid" but maybe it's send a different message. Regardless, I think we all can benefit from forcing ourselves to act. It's so challenging for me. I freeze. FIL used to regularly invade my space and touch, and I.could.not.make.myself.act. I'm finally more able to with uNBPDm, but only if she approaches me from the front. From the back, with unwanted touch, I still freeze.

[Andeza]

Projecting a certain impression with the personal bubble is something I've only seen done well once. Dh and I are friends with a former marine. Normally he's an easy going guy, but when the bubble goes up for whatever reason (not toward us but toward others) then just walking near him is like being doused in ice water.

[hhaw]

Andeza:  You can imagine your former marine is the last person a thug is going to choose to prey on.  Bad guys want easy soft targets.

all4peace:

It's not that I would never make eye contact to send the message to a bad guy that I WILL fight.... IF I think I have to send that message to stay, or get out of trouble.   The situation would have to warrant it, and perhaps yours did.  I'm not able to say either way.

What I will add, to clarify another good reason for not making eye contact.....
small people need to element of surprise IF they're going to have a chance of overcoming a much larger attack who's committed to doing trauma. We're already behind the 8 ball, bc we're usually going to wait till we're harmed BEFORE we throw an eye strike, etc.  I think most posters on this site are empaths, or similar.  I've struggled with this my entire life.... feeling vulnerable.  Feeling at the mercy of.  I took up martial arts to empower myself and after years of training I have a huge insights about WHY it's so difficult to overcome and survive.  What I don't have are great insights on survival.... and I've trained many years to do just that. 

So... back gto the element of surprise. 
Avoiding trouble is the mission.  If we get cornered, we have to do our best to get free, get away, survive.

My martial arts trainer, at the time, taught the lesson two ways......
One was with our hands up, superman style, a little bend at the elbow... palms out... begging for our lives.  Terrified and completely under the control of the perpetrator....
"Please don't hurt me, I'll do ANYTHING, just don't hurt me...." and it does go on until we see our chance, and take our best shot.  Typically this is an eye strike, and we just keep at it till we get in. 

Then we get away.

To help us understand how the element of surprise works, there was a second part to the lesson.  At this point, our martial arts trainer dropped his voice down, very low, almost to a whister, and sang ....

"Maaaaaary had a liiiiiittle ::BAM!:: "  He threw an eye strike and we all jumped backwards, bc he puncuated it with the sound "BAM!"  We were entranced, and waiting to hear the next word... ."lamb", of course we were, and that was a good lesson on how to misdirect, and take advantage of one of the only things small people have going for them.  NO ONE expects us to go toe to toe, even us, but no one expects us to formulate a plan of escape, set it up, and execute it to good effect either, bc bad situations shut us down, and freeze us up most of time.  Even when we train for these situations, they NEVER happen the way you think they will, and we're always overcoming our own biology.

I hope that's helpful.

[1footouttadefog]

I tend to make brief eye contact with those around me so they know I am aware of my surroundings. 

I feel this is safer than letting them think I  not aware.  I want to be the keys desirable target among targets.  I also feel that being noticed makes the potential perpetrator less at ease, especially if several folks have made notice of his presence.

[all4peace]

Exactly, 1foot. I don't want to look totally oblivious.

hhaw, I appreciate your helpful response! Although it feels a little disheartening to know how hard a person might have to work to overcome their instincts.

Knock on wood, my life has been really very safe in adulthood. I don't live in fear of assault, but I have obviously had encounters with less-than-emotionally-healthy people and spent way too many years talking myself out of my initial impressions and instincts. THAT'S more what I want to work on in life, trusting my instincts.