Do I talk to her?

[twistedknots]

Hi again. Looking for some input or feedback and also just needing to write this down I suppose.

I've posted a couple of times about my MIL, and to be honest I don't 100% know if she is PD or not, obviously not diagnosed but she fits so many of the criteria/behaviours. My exFIL (it's a long story) was definitely undiagnosed PD of some kind, and I don't know if MIL just has fleas from being with him so long or if she has her own PD thing going on. (I'm not trying to armchair diagnose, but just feel like it maybe influences how I should react? Maybe it doesn't even matter.)

Anyway. After a tense month, in which I have not spoken to her at all, and DH has had about a conversation a week with her, I've come to the place where I need to decide what to do. I basically said I was waiting for an apology from her for things she said and did to DH when this all started. Well she did apologize, and while I didn't hear it because it was on the phone between her and DH, it sounds like it was a better apology than I expected. (Actually naming things she did, owning them, and saying sorry without blame.) He seemed to think it was genuine (and while he is not 100% Out of the FOG, he is doing pretty well these days at seeing through her.) However, later in the conversation she still said she didn't think she should have had to apologize, which to me is a sign that it wasn't genuine at all. Then she texted another apology later. 

We've arrived at the place where I have to make some kind of decision in terms of how to move forward with her. We have a family trip booked for later in the year and we have been asked to decide on going or not in the next few days. I absolutely can't see going without knowing where the two of us are, which means me having a conversation with her. I really don't want to. But I feel like I should at least try, once, to see if there's a chance she will listen. If she won't I know for a fact that I'm done talking. Is it worth it to try? I don't think it is, and yet I feel like I owe it to DH to give it one direct, honest conversation before walking away.

The thing is, if she is PD or at least continues to act like it I know it's a waste of time and a drain on my own health. If there's a glimmer of hope that she's coming out of her own FOG with her ex then maybe there's something to work with but I am so, so skeptical that's the case. When I talk to DH and see his hopefulness I feel like maybe there's a way forward, but when I talk to my friends they are all telling me to run, but then I think well they are my friends and of course they are biased in my favour. We are seeing a counselor and so far he's been helpful, but also saying that in his experience going NC is only for extreme cases and that otherwise he has seen it be more harmful than good.

In other circumstances I would just take my time and talk to her when I feel ready but now there's this deadline looming, which I know is another tactic to force this from her side, but logistically we DO need to decide on things before anyone puts any more money/reservations down on things. Part of me wants to have the conversation with DH present and then I can say I tried at least, for his sake if nothing else.

I'm having trouble finding the words for any of this even just to write it down is hard. I just feel this anger and bitterness that seems like it's blocking every attempt at rational thought when it comes to this subject right now. I feel like I've been sucked right back into the FOG and I can't see straight.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Well if there's a deadline looming and you aren't sure, I recommend you default to "no." You can say, "I appreciate your apology but I'm still not sure about how I want to move forward. We don't want to be pressured so we think it's best we bow out of the family trip this time since you need an answer now." You're right that the imminent trip deadline is likely a tactic to fix it NOW.

Just that alone will be a bit of a test. You can see if the response is respectful or exasperated or just bananas. A lot of this is soooo familiar to me with my own MIL. I'll try to write more later.

[all4peace]

Personally, when things got this tense between us and our families, we opted out of long, intimate times together (like family trips) and tried to focus on shorter, more neutral gatherings. If it couldn't work in short, more neutral visits, our feeling was it certainly wouldn't work on a longer trip. Good luck!

[twistedknots]

Thank you both. My gut feeling is "no" as well, but unfortunately this trip was planned long before all of this blew up and we just found out certain things are non refundable. I know in the end it's just money but it's added another layer to it. It's hard when DH and the kids are all so set on going and I'm the only one who doesn't want to go.

[bloomie]

Thank you both. My gut feeling is "no" as well, but unfortunately this trip was planned long before all of this blew up and we just found out certain things are non refundable. I know in the end it's just money but it's added another layer to it. It's hard when DH and the kids are all so set on going and I'm the only one who doesn't want to go.

twistedknots - this is really hard and I am sorry that a trip that sounds like it could be wonderful has this cloud hanging over it.

If I remember correctly, things have been pretty bad since you all started setting some boundaries with your mil and she has a long history of scapegoating you and making you the "bad guy".

And now she has apologized. Did she apologize to you?

This all feels a bit upside down and wrong side out to me.   The burden of making things right and if to meet and talk is your mil's who is responsible for the offenses.  Maybe that is the message that needs to go deep in all of this?

Why would she assume any of you would be going on any kind of extended trip with her without her doing all she can to make amends, reassure, and offer an atmosphere where you can reconnect with some semblance of safety for all of you?

More demands that you make decisions now is a red flag to me. Deposits can be carried forward or forfeited and trips can be replanned. All of that angst and everyone's emotions around this trip is not your responsibility imv.  You are not the reason you all may not go on this trip. Your mil is. Let's be clear on that most important fact.

You didn't cause this situation. You didn't create an atmosphere of risk and disrespect. Your mil did. Do not take this upon yourself to solve, cure, change, fix. Hand that bowl of steaming toxic stew right back to your mil and let she and your DH figure this mess out.

I understand the pressure is intense with your DH and kids wanting to take this trip, so what are the conditions that would make this even something you would consider for your family? 

I guess what I am trying to say is you are not in a step down position. You are in an empowered position that says I do not feel safe going on an extended vaca with this person in the present situation. Those responsible can attempt to fix that. 

I am a mil to a beautiful and precious daughter in law. If I behaved one time as you have been the recipient of many times, it would be 100% my responsibility to make that right in every way I could and to take some time to rebuild trust.

How has your mil attempted to rebuild trust with you and your family?

[HeadAboveWater]

Just wanted to say that you have my empathy. When my DH and I have been in these situations with our parents, we have decided that spending time together after a blow-up does not feel comfortable. It does, indeed, sound tricky to back out of this trip. If you and DH are not on the same page, traveling separately is a choice that works for some families. Wishing you the best with whatever you decide.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Yeah what If MiL misses out on the trip, eh?  Or you go some other time without her?

Personally I would be shocked if that proposal were received well. But why not? Just goes to show the lack of responsibility. I think Bloomie is right on when she emphasizes that aspect. You did not create the problem!!! You are not responsible for making everyone happy!!!

No, a secondhand apology is NOT sufficient. I'm going to be repeating a lot of what was said to me by other wise members recently. I do think looking at their words on my posts in this board would be of value to you. We are really in quite a similar situation. MIL screwed things up over years, and now the rugsweeping is happening and the DH just wants everyone to get along and is all hopeful because his parents are saddened by "what happened in the family."  In my case, until recently DH expected me to be the one to reconcile things because I'm more capable of change. 

I think it was all4peace said that when trust is broken the person who broke it needs to fix it. I didn't catch up on all your backstory, but it seems like this is a long time coming with you and MIL. An apology is, possibly, a BEGINNING. Not a fix, let's have happy family togetherness again. Words are nice. But they are words only. I need words and actions to match, perhaps for quite a long time, before there can be any kind of closeness. You are never obligated to accept any apology. It is not a "Get Out of Jail Free" card.

My MIL clearly doesn't comprehend this. (Expecting me to immediately bare my innermost hope and dreams to her in the same email as her "apology" and then calling me disrespectful for not immediately complying!) And it appears yours does not either. If it's serious enough you're considering NC, why in heaven's name would everyone expect you to spend a week in her company???

A thought on triangulation. Sometimes DH has been made MIL's flying monkey, because I was taking a time out from her. If a timeout is what you want, makes perfect sense. However, be prepared for DH to have Mommy hissing in his ear. There's really not much you can do about that. But you CAN be firm in your boundaries with DH that you don't want to be informed of anything MIL says or what's going on with her. (Do as I say, not as I did. Or at least did inconsistently. ) When YOU decide, she can reach out to you and start to work on things.

[twistedknots]

Thanks everyone again for your empathy and thoughtful replies. Counseling this week helped clarify things. Somehow having a third party there while we explain ourselves helps DH and I see each other's side a little better. It actually came out this week that MIL said she shouldn't have to apologize to us for anything because we should always just know she's sorry and loves us. But also she has nothing to be sorry for because she didn't do anything.

It just became so clear to me and I think to DH as well the more we talked that there's no way to make this trip work the way things are right now.

Bloomie, your question about how MIL has tried to rebuild trust with us is something I have continued to ask DH because in my opinion, she just hasn't. I can't trust someone who can flip flop on her own words so many times, even in a single conversation she's contradicting herself.

Call Me Cordelia I have appreciated all your responses to my posts lately, I did read through some of your old threads and found it helpful, thank you.

HeadAboveWater, thanks for the reply, appreciate your perspective and empathy!