Am I Kidding Myself Thinking That Things Actually Are Better?

[HindSightIs2020]

I was saying and thinking that they've been "better in the last couple years", but I'm not so sure of that anymore. For one thing, it just wouldn't be like them for anything to 'get anywhere', because honestly their behavior prior to the last couple years seemed like classic PD tactics and basically textbook emotional abuse. What is in their character is to look like it got somewhere, and later on you realize that you didn't. Last night, something made me think that underneath it all, the overall situation and way that I'm viewed is might honestly be exactly the same as ever. They had my brother and his family over, and my mom starts in giving me looks at the dinner table. She does this all the time, whenever we're socializing together. She'll give these little subtle, controlling "signals" to me. They're usually just little 'reminders' about things like manners or something of the sort. But very little things. Like the sort of thing that she's not really wrong about but most people probably wouldn't even notice. And I've always tried to get her to stop doing that. Which of course has gotten me nowhere, as she doesn't necessarily really care about my wellbeing and the fact that it bothers me. The reason why it bothers me is that they've had a way of making me feel like "there's something wrong with me". And that as a result, I somehow lack social sense and "need their guidance". That's been a huge part of how they manipulated and controlled me as a kid. And in a sense, ties back to all their mind games that they've played with me as an adult. So, when I see those looks, it just makes me feel like nothing has changed. And I'm still just being viewed as the incapable person with problems who "needs guidance from them". And of course, my protesting being constantly given the looks was a sign of "how I've never benefited from their wisdom". After last night, it seems to me like it's exactly the same as ever. After she gives me the look, and I said something about it, it annoyed me.

As it always does when I've seen her give me those looks. I asked her yet again to not do that, which is the last time I'll ever ask that. To be honest, I said to her that if she kept giving me the controlling looks I didn't want anything to do with her anymore. But even that had absolutely no impact whatsoever. In fact, she just said to me that she can't promise that she won't continue giving me the little controlling looks, because it's "like telling someone not to sneeze". And then later on ends up saying that "because I didn't listen to anybody" growing up that I "lack much basic sense". Which to me just feels like she's right back to pushing the old "something's wrong with you and you need me to fix it" buttons. There was another incident earlier in the summer where she was being quite critical towards me in this sort of way. Not exactly the same, more justifying the constant hovering over me and what basically was them cultivating a negative and somewhat distorted view of me that they subjected me to growing up. And I also saw it one time back in December. We were arguing about something, and then all of a sudden she just flipped right back into the critical, negative mode. Starts making comments about my weight and basically painting this picture of me that was almost like a negative caricature. Just because she was angry at me, and this was her way of lashing out. In the last couple years, I haven't seen this sort of attitude much unless they're angry about something, and I've only seen it a few times. But what gets me is how other times, I'll get a different read. Even last night, she says how she gives dad the looks/signals when we're socializing with people. And points out that she did at the dinner table last night too. But it's just different. Because with me, it just gives me the sense that it's part of a broader package of looking at me as someone who has some sort of "issue" that I need her to "fix".

The thing about these people though is that they're not just manipulators but very skilled manipulators who know exactly the right things to say and know how to be phony. And are extremely skilled, almost chameleon like actors. For instance, this morning when I called my mom out on having said that I "lack basic sense" and that it bothered me that she was essentially saying I lacked common sense. She tells me that I read that wrong. That what she really meant was that "since I shut people down over the years, I missed out on things they were trying to teach me when I was younger". But that "maybe I picked it up elsewhere, like watching TV, or just having taught myself things". That she just doesn't know. But still, just doesn't seem right. I mean what parent says that they're so fundamentally uncertain about whether their own kid (as an adult) has common sense. But tells them that "well maybe you learned elsewhere since you didn't listen to me". I've seen other people with their families, and they just seemed to have a fundamental sense of confidence in them. But that just isn't the case with them. And probably never would be. The best that I would get is something like she said this morning. Sometimes, they'll express confidence in me with regard to something specific or sometimes they'll even say "we're proud of you" or something along those lines when it comes to achievements that I've made. Or even seem very positive and supportive towards me overall. Sometimes, they can seem very warm and loving actually. Which makes this whole situation very confusing for me since that's how it is most of the time. For the most part, especially in recent years, it often seems like we've gotten along pretty good. But still, I think there's a good chance that underneath it all they still have the image of me as someone who is fundamentally inept and "needs their guidance".

And may very well ultimately resist and fight any efforts on my part to be fully independent on them by trying to say that I'm somehow inept and wouldn't be able to. Who knows, it's possible that this wouldn't be the case. Because in the last couple years particularly my mom was actually extremely helpful to me in terms of my career goals (working as a freelancer creating ads online). Even got several books on the topic that she looked over with me and seemed to be supportive of my goals. So, they haven't been trying to blatantly hold me down or anything. Or just outright heckling me entirely. When I have begun to do better with it and have started landing better paid clients in the last few months, they've been glad to see it. Said they were proud of me and everything. But at the same time, I've still heard some very critical things at times. And I still think that they may have that same sense of seeing me as fundamentally inept. And the other thing is that I've often felt like my status as a family member is shaky or perhaps even that I'm simply viewed with a sense of dread.

The thing is that when they get angry about something, sometimes it just seems normal. And just seems like a normal family argument sort of thing, where it seems fairly unremarkable and just like a disagreement that would be normal between family members. But other times they get so worked up, and they've been known to say things like that I'm "taking advantage of them" or "using them". And just seem to have this energy of absolute hatred towards me. They can seem very positive and loving normally, and they generally do. But then something pisses them off....... and it just shifts into this mode of total and utter hatred and loathing. And just having the attitude like they have absolute disdain for me and want to be rid of me. Sometimes, they'll actually say things along those lines, but other times it's just an overall energy that I get from the overall tone of the situation. In the last couple years, there have been a few of these episodes. Whereas before it would happen more often. And there seemed to be an overall sense along these lines that was consistent. But I've seen it. They'd get pissed about something and go right back into this mode. What pissed them off were always things that I could understand that they'd be angry about even if they were a normal family. But not like this, because they would just flip into this mode of total hatred and disdain or seem like they were trying to twist the situation to dominate and attack. And like I was just totally hated and viewed with disdain. And just behaving in a manner that's completely out of proportion to anything that I said or did to trigger it. It hasn't lasted or anything, but there have been 3-4 incidents of this happening in the last couple years. Only once did they give any sort of apology for anything or acknowledge having done anything wrong at all.

Plus, there has been a lot of conflict over values/them trying to control my whole self-identity and judging me for who I am and choices that I make. This had been an ongoing issue for a while, and there were multiple aspects of it. Some of which were very major things, like my sexual orientation. Me coming out as bi was met with initial 110% phony acceptance followed by rage, abuse, and disgust towards me. I was driven back in the closet a couple of times. Until the final time where I tried and everything really hit the fan. And it was no more of the "We love you.... but". Just outright saying that they were uncomfortable and didn't know if they would be a part of my life anymore if I "chose to live an alternative lifestyle". Would kind of backtrack and circle around a bit after saying that, claiming that they'd "want to be a part of my life". But that's what they said. And that's what they seemed to mean. And there were other issues like that they attacked me over choices that I made with regard to how I dressed. And would put me down and emotionally abuse me over it. Eventually, it came to them completely seeming like they were discarding me a couple years ago. Which was followed by the whole "coming around" and supposed sudden acceptance of things.

Which may very well be complete and total bullshit. And it would seem out of character for them to suddenly accept something like that since I was very much conditioned that they would discard and disown me if there was ever some sort of issue related to values, lifestyle, etc. with them. And even if the "acceptance" was completely phony, the emotional whiplash of them going from totally discarding me to them being supportive of my career goals and actually acting as though they loved me and wanted me in their lives gave me one hell of a case of Stockholm syndrome. I don't really know for sure yet honestly. It would seem very surprising for them to have adjusted to anything to be honest. I hadn't really changed anything with regard to the way that I dressed or anything like that, nor did I deny my coming out. It wasn't triggered by me changing myself to suit their desires, but what really triggered it was when I said that I'd leave if they did not stop harassing me (and meant it). So, I think they might have just dialed it back to keep me from following through with that. Also, they never apologized for their horrible treatment of me over any of this stuff. Not even a little bit. I've pretty much just zipped it about the whole thing, for fear that it would just set the whole issue off yet again. The few times that I did say anything, I didn't get the sense that they saw themselves as having done anything wrong honestly. In fact, once my mom even said that the issues were caused by that I "had to go through some sort of phase of being at odds with them".

And beyond that there were a couple of issues that came up that made me think the attitude is probably exactly the same. Ever since I  was younger (e.g. quite a while prior to this as in years before), I sometimes painted my nails black. And this was a HUGE issue to them at the time earlier on (e.g. prior to a couple years ago). But again, was one of the things that they seemed to get past and not see as an issue anymore. Yet one time, they had company over. Neighbors who I talked to all the time, who would have seen this numerous times. Because they saw me all the time. But when they had them over they asked me to take it off. And I didn't. Because somehow I didn't feel right about changing something, even if it was a small thing because of their demands. Had I grown up under different circumstances, my reaction to something like that would be very different. But they've been so controlling in the past that some part of me feels like it's sort of all or nothing. Like if one small aspect of my autonomy is not honored, that nothing else will be and that this means I am just doing the monkey for them like I was when I was younger.

Usually, I would take it off on certain occasions like this, and there had been times where I'd have it on and they'd ask me to just given the particular situation, which I never really seemed to have an issue with. At the time, it didn't seem like they had any real problem with me for not having taken it off. But then a couple of weeks later, my mom says that this "ruined the visit", though they said they enjoyed the visit and had a good time that day. It didn't seem quite right that she was still, even after all that time bothered by that. Just made me think how the hell would these people respond to anything in the future that was of more significance? Especially since when she first brought this up, it seemed like the resolve was that she wouldn't ask that again. And then it came up again, which even led to her essentially going to the wall about it yet again. She even said that she "couldn't live with me" if I didn't go along with her request the next time they had people over. Though, at the point that she said this, I hardly ever wore it anyways. So, I think at that point she felt like I was just doing something to bother her, which wasn't true at all.

Though, on the other hand, I'll say that they (especially my mom) did and has seemed to have some sense of respecting my autonomy, which wasn't true in the past. For instance, I overheard my dad saying to her something about "what the neighbors think" about my nails (not with regard to them having people over, just in general). And my mom said, "We can't worry about that, we have no control over that". Seemed like sort of an acknowledgement that they weren't just entitled to have total reign over me perhaps. I don't know. They didn't seem to have an issue with me wearing it, just didn't want me to have it on while they were socializing with people. Which was kind of odd when I think about it, because the neighbors saw me all the time anyways. And knew that I was their kid. And interacted with me, so it's not like they were hiding me or anything. I think that they probably saw this as me being obstinate over a small thing as opposed to them going full bore into judgmental controlling mode of trying to tinker with my personality or anything. I think they saw it as a very small request and felt slighted that I didn't go along with it. I didn't see it as a full blown return to the state of them judgmentally attacking me or anything. But still, it bothered me a lot because it just made me kind of feel like perhaps there really wasn't any sort of change in anything and that maybe they'll just be back to their old judgmental selves yet again.

The thing is that much of the time they seem so nice. Which has often been the case. Especially in the last couple years. In fact, the vast majority of the time everything is going completely fine. It'll seem like I actually have a family that loves and cares about me. And they act like they enjoy spending time with me. And generally seem extremely warm towards me. Sometimes, there seems to some tension in the air, but often not. In fact, I would say that the vast majority of the time the dynamic basically seems fine in the moment. I'm also not sure if some of the issues that have come up in the last couple years that make me unsure are just me having been conditioned to associate them with problems and bullshit. And that maybe some of the things now are just kind of normal sorts of things, but I'm perceiving it differently because given the history I've just come to expect problems form them. Like the whole thing about her giving "signals", especially since she does do that with my dad and brother too. It just somehow has felt different with me. And some of the other things too. Also, I often would go as far as to say that I feel like I'm actually seen as wanted and that they truly enjoy spending time with me. Like I remember this one time when we were watching Boss Baby, and my mom was saying how glad she was that I came into their lives and actually cried. And there have been other moments. But then again, this is the same person who in the past has gone on rages, put me down, and really been extremely abusive. I wouldn't say that so much in recent years, but I honestly can't say that things have been perfect either. So, now I feel like I honestly just don't know what to think honestly, because like I said the past couple years have been better. But I have still seen some things. And am just not quite sure what to make of it honestly.

[xredshoesx]

other members have noticed that their parents have mellowed with age.

it also may be a fact that you are more empowered in yourself and like your user name suggests. you have some time and distance on what happened when you were a kid and had absolutely no control over the things that went on in your home.  from reading your past posts, it sounds very much like you were the 'chosen one' in the family, the one that was most compliant and therefore easiest to operate on using the FOG tactics you shared.

you are living at home again?   having the ability to get in a car and leave as an adult may also be one of the reasons that they seem mellow-  you aren't subject to them 24/7.

i have a lot of empathy for the situation.  it is very hard to live with people who really don't accept you for you.  to make a long story short, i ran away/ got put out at 18.  i lived pretty rough for a while but asked to come back to live with my grandparents (grandma is uPD, grandpa was a child molester) and my uPD biomother (who has lived with them since i was in HS because she can't operated as an adult in the world) and i had to agree to their 'house rules' that included things like wearing skirts and not cutting my hair.....  our differences were more based on religion but having to conform to that was very hard and i made it about two years before i got myself on my feet again so i could get my own place as an adult-  we are NC now for 25 years because it was for me, at the point where i couldn't live in their alternate reality without further compromising the truth and my sanity.

[StayWithMe]

And am just not quite sure what to make of it honestly.

I am in a similar position as you. My mother has finally stopped asking me about dead issues ...... which I had asked her many times to stop doing.  She actually picks me up at the airport...... and ON TIME when I come to visit her now.  She doesn't treat me like the housekeeper when I come; ask me to clean up after my sister who used to live there rent free; she has stopped reminding me how much stuff costs.

But I am still careful.  I don't want her to raise issues that are long dead, sneaking them in at the end of a conversation as she has done before.  I don't want to be out in public with my mother as she tries to catch the attention of people with whom i no longer have a relationship with  --- but she says I should.

I still watch my conversation with her.  No discussion about my personal life.  Everything is fine! I'm also careful about conversations on third party topics, I don't want her one upping me; choosing an opposite and trying to frame as a superior choice.

I always think to myself, if she goes back to her old self, there is no hope for this relationship.

[athene1399]

other members have noticed that their parents have mellowed with age.

Unfortunately this is not true in my case. M has gotten worse (or may be we just never noticed how bad she was when we were kids. So maybe she's just the same. IDK for sure, but it feels like she's gotten worse- more volatile). Although uPD GM mellowed out around 80, so maybe I just have to wait it out. lol

But in regards to M getting worse, she's also never seen a T. I'm sure that's part of it too. Dad's also an alcoholic. I'm sure that doesn't help. Everyone's different, but I have read that generally many with PDs do mellow out. In all honestly, I have mellowed out. I was a disaster in my twenties. I couldn't control my emotions at all. It was like I reached my tipping point with everything and it just flowed out whenever I was triggered.

HindSight, thank you for sharing your story. As annoying as the looks from your mom are, maybe try to ignore them next time. That way she can't use you calling her out on them as an excuse to "prove" how "wrong" you are.

Sometimes, they can seem very warm and loving actually. Which makes this whole situation very confusing for me since that's how it is most of the time.

I understand how confusing this can feel. This is what I grapple with the most. Sometimes they do want to help me, or be nice to me, but other times they made me feel defective, laughed at my insecurities, verbally abused me, didn't protect me when I needed it most. I think my parents do care, they just don't know how to appropriately care for a child. Some days I don't know how I should feel about that. And I know M still feels that i always need her guidance, whether i ask for it or not. And If I don't listen to her, she gets mad. She's often delusional, so it's hard to tell if she's giving good advice or not.

I try not to take things offered from my parents because I'm afraid I'd get the "you take advantage of us". M tries to offer me money or offer to buy me things. I try to refuse (sometimes she doesn't let me). I feel that even if she doesn't say it, she's thinking "look how good you have it? I will buy things for you." Maybe that's not her intention. Maybe that's just something I feel becasue of something she's said to me before. I just don't want the strings that may come with her help. The "you should come over more since I do x for you..."

Plus, there has been a lot of conflict over values/them trying to control my whole self-identity and judging me for who I am and choices that I make.

I am sorry about this. I had this too. For the longest time I tried to be who they wanted me to be. I'd listen to what M said. "You shouldn't go to college for x..." I used to seek their approval for b/fs. Then I realized the didn't like the only b/f who wasn't verbally abusive to me. That made me start to not care what they thought. I don't need their approval anymore. If they don't like what I am doing, too bad. It isn't the end of the world. I wish I got to that mode of thinking sooner. For so long I was like a child, constantly seeking the approval I could hardly get a glimpse of. Now I hear the "I don't know why you don't do x..." Me: "becasue I don't want to," and I leave it at that.

Similar to the nail polish, M hardly likes what color I chose to dye my hair. But it's my hair. You don't like it, don't look at me. 

It's gotten easier for me when I was finally "allowed" to move out (they didn't let me move out for 10 years. Looking back, I don't know why I didn't just leave. I hate that I let them have that much power over me).  Sometimes my parents can be very respectful and fun to be around. It's nice to have the option to leave when I want to. I can go home because I don't live with them. Plus now it's not dealing with them every day. It's only once in a while. That's nice too.

It sounds to me like you are starting to accept who you are without their approval, and sometimes they let you have your autonomy. Learning about boundaries have been good for me. My parents know i am not "on call" for them. I hardly answer the phone. M complains about that, but whatever. I guess my way to cope is by not caring about what they think most of the time. M will always complain about something I am doing, so it's best to just not let that bother me. I have my limits about what I will discuss with them. I've figured that out through trial and error.

It sounds like you are figuring out how you want to best deal with them. Looking at the length of your post, you are sorting through a lot of stuff. It takes a while to figure out. I think it's great you are thinking about these things. Maybe think of what you want to do if you find out they aren't getting better. Will there be boundaries you want to enforce if the negative behavior starts up again? Maye practice JADE for if they don't like something you are doing. "sorry you feel that way" and leave it at that.