why is anger "wrong"

[1footouttadefog]

I am noticing of late that many people think anger is "wrong" and ironically they are usually angry when they express it.

There was an outbursty sort of an announcement made in a recent choir rehearsal by a choir member recently.  He proceeded to tall an untruth, and I Interupted him to state firmly that the elders of the church where indeed addressing the issue he brought up and were not taking it lightly.  He then continued by threatening that he and his wife would leave the church if things did not get done his way by the next week.

He brought up all sorts of tear jerk making info and took the opportunity to draw as much attention and supply to himself in a true narcissist fashion.

After the rehearsal I was followed to the pastor's office where I had an elders meeting.  The woman who followed prevented us from meeting as she sat there accusing me of being angry because I dared interest the man who was lying to the choir.  It was almost comical as she sat with her arms crossed saying, "well?" , "well?"  Are you going to tell him?". And the pastor was looking back and forth between us shrugging his shoulders.  My guess is that she was on the side of the announcement man and had been privy to his upcoming announcement.  Funny thing is no one is arguing with him, he just wants things to move faster than they can and likely wanted personal credit for something or another and did not get it.


Another person expressed that I seemed angry when I interrupted him and they were mad at me.  I thought I was merely firm.  But see no fault if I had been a bit angry because he was lying to stir up trouble in the church and making threats.

I merely inserted three sentences and let him go on  Another member also inserted evidence I was right by stating an upcoming meeting time etc.  with County Sherrif and local police Chief etc (it's about security concerns at the church).

We have elderly members in our church.  One lady in the choir is quite old struggling with cancer for the umpteenth time and likely dementia as well.  She has been very rude and caustic toward me lately at the same time she is being overly and uncharacteristically "cheerful" and attention getting and narcissistic in choir rehearsals.  The rehearsal after the man making his threatening announcement, the old woman who sits meat to me and who I habe been ignoring her rudeness out of compassiin for her age and illnesses,  laid into me and I just was not in the mood.

I had had bad days with the pdh and just did not need stress where I should be finding peace.  I got up silently and left and drove around and listened to music a while before grocery shopping and going home.

I related the incident to a friend I know out of the area.  She commented about me losing my temper when I put my book up and went out of rehearsal.  (It had not actually started yet btw.)

What is up with the idea that you are more righteous if you are not ever angry.  It's like everyone believes you should endure abuse and not call things out at all costs to avoid appearing angry.

I also saw recently in my spouses medical records where the psychiatrist and the social worker flipped the script on me because I was expressing anger and dissatisfaction toward my spouse when he was trying to get back with a former lover and was sending her lots of money and threatening me with suicide because I was not happily going along with it.  I was actually discouraged from putting trigger locks on our weapons by these idiot professionals because it might further anger my spouse.  This is of course precisely when they heard my anger over the phone.

I let them know that I thought it irrational and unprofessional of them to tell me not to take a suicide threat seriously, when they're using suicidal thoughts to justify my husband's strong need to set things straight with former relationship.  (He had not talked to the woman in. 34 years, this was a psychotic break)   And regardless of what he told them he wanted to get straight, I know exactly which part he wanted straight because he asked me to help him explore ED options at clinics in the next county before he went to see her.

My pd was manic psychotic at this time and needed meds changed and I was treated this way because his practitioners were not happy I was angry.  Okay?? 

I was not screaming or ranting but there was anger and annoyance in my voice to be sure. 

I saw a friend lose full custody at the last minute because after being harassed by a 10 hour onslaught in court one day she showed anger.  Yes 10 hour circus in court.  The judge closed with statement she could not in good conscience give any custody to father then over night changed it to 50/50 because the mother was sarcastic/angry in a response at the end of day. The angry response to an unreasonable suggestion by the mother in law via the lawyer, combined with a character reference by the husbands new girl friend of two weeks made the judge doubt.

I guess you have to hit someone or break something or make a violent threat in order for anger to be okay.  Simply having a tone to your voice, or speaking assertively is unreasonsble.

I wonder of there are so many depression restrictions written in part because people are not expressing anger in a healthy and constructive fashion.
 

[athene1399]

I think sometimes it depends on how we express our anger. I've been working on that as well. I try to make sure my tone doesn't sound angry. If you sound angry, sometimes it will escalate others to becoming angry or more angry.

However, if someone is trying to sway the church (or any organization) based on misinformation, IMO someone should speak up. Like "I hear you saying x is going on, but i thought y was going on. Maybe we should get more data on this to make an informed decision on the matter."And if anyone after said you sounded mad, "I'm sorry I sounded upset. That was not my intention. I just wanted to make sure we had all the information about this problem."

I am sorry about everything going on with your H. That sounds frustrating.

[Penny Lane]

Hi 1footouttadefog, this is a good topic!

I've been reading a lot of parenting books lately and it's actually given me some really helpful tools in life as well. One of them is "it's ok to be mad but you can't express it rudely." I read that and I was like, whoa - I'm allowed to be mad about stuff! I feel like most people just skip to step 2 without acknowledging that sometimes anger is justified. In fact, anger can be a useful tool to help us figure out "oh something is wrong here." You know?

This relates to PDs because it can be really alarming to be on the other side of anger and PDs will exploit that. Both by doing an extreme victim thing when you're mad at them, and also directing intense anger at anyone who's not doing what they want. It's good to keep this in mind as a manipulation tool.

I also think there can be cultural differences at play here. I moved from an area where directness is common, to an area where politeness is much more valued than directness. Especially when I first moved here, it seemed like any hint of frustration was being received as blowing up in anger. What I realized is that people here just express anger in a different way than where I lived previously. I've had to work on this and I still have somewhat of a hard time understanding people in even more extreme areas (like the South).

Which brings me too ... does it make sense to do some soul-searching and maybe to ask a trusted (non-PD) friend to figure out if you're maybe coming across more aggressively than you intend to? If you're noticing this pattern I think it's possible that it's something you're doing.

But, I also think it's possible - or even likely - that you're running against a culture that says "it's not OK to be mad, ever" but also allows PD and other toxic people to, as you said, break things or make a violent threat with little to no consequence. It really does sound like in one or both of those examples, the other person was using "you sound mad" as a weapon/deflection. If you're confident it's them, not you - go forth and be angry! It can be a useful tool in our arsenal of interacting with others.

I would even offer another script beyond Athene's: "Yeah, I'm a little frustrated here and I'd like to try to resolve this situation in the best way possible" and then pivot back to problem-solving the issue at hand.

[Free2Bme]

I agree with Penny and athene-  great insight. 

Ken Sandy's book The Peacemaker is a good source for conflict resolution.  It is written from a Christian perspective, if that is something you appreciate.  Although the best stuff in this book is wasted on a PD, I found it helpful to keep me grounded as to what healthy conflict resolution should look like. Such a contrast to what we experience with distorted individuals and even churches.

With PD's, the double standard will never change, their anger is not only justifiable but you deserve it.  My PD told me I deserved his anger (rage) and he was doing me a favor by teaching me a lesson.  He was 50% correct... I learned the lesson.   

[1footouttadefog]

So basically in the recent situation at the church the persons involved are likely narcissists. 

I have more information now and know that the man who stood up and made a scene had been working in the background to set himself up as a hero.  He was creating a crisis so he could then offer the solution. A solution that would publicly show off his knowledge and expertise  from his past military experience.  So he was basically stirring up things every time there was a mass shooting anywhere in the country because he wanted to implement his version of security.  Instead a committee was formed and they consulted with fire Department and sheriff and police and liability insurance company to come up with a plan.  He translated this into nothing being done and threatened to leave.

And yes to have someone making everyone on edge and lying in the process makes me angry. He was terrorizing people.  Not cool.  I did not act out in my anger, simply spoke the truth firmly. 

This is in the South, and I am not from a culturally Southern location and was raise by parents not from the South. So yes, part of this is likely regional/cultural. 

Re the psychiatrist, Perhaps women are not supposed to be unhappy when their spouses are running away from home on a manic psychotic mission and costing the family thousands of dollars in the mean time, all while threatening suicide in front of the kids hearing.  I don't have that sweet Southern belle voice at time like that.  That I told his doc and councelor I had zero tolerance and he would need hospitalized before returning home if he made another threat was recorded in the psychiatrists notes as me wanting the doc to adjust my pdh's meds to reduce his response to my anger. That I wanted this to the extent I wanted him hospitalized if his response to me was not attenuated.   WOW, there were issues on both sides of that prescription pad.  Thankfully we were his last appointment the day he retired from the VA. The woman who writes the scripts now is much more competent and is sensitive to the fact that my pd does not live alone and has children in the home.

It's times like the ones I described when one discovers who their fair weather friends are.

A friend I know whose stbxh is diagnosed as sociopathic,  had times when she was criticized at church for seeming angry.  Her spouse would purposely say things like "I married the wrong C" on the way to church after making it almost impossible to get the kids ready etc by causing drama at home. The women would ask her after a week spent at a DV shelter if she was being submissive enough, was he getting enough sex, was her spirit sweet enough, was she supportive, etc etc.  She wanted to scream, no I am not supportive enough, that is why I fell down the steps when he was stangling me.

So yes, I agree that it's a tool used by the pd partners against the nons. They will purposely time comments and actions that are often loaded with a lot of history or are emotiinally triggering just so to get maximum effect. And explanation of such by the non seems petty to the uninitiated.

I am also reminded of many people I know with pd parents and or disfuctional homes where anger was not allowed by the kids or non spouse and things were never worked out.  Instead folks were expected to act like it never happened and they would simply drop friends, neighbors, and relatives forever if needed to avoid working through or fixing a problem, or drawing attention to the pd bad behaviour.  Anger and such were totally avoided, and faults and bad behaviour were never acknowledge.

[Andeza]

Ahhhh, the South. Where I was born and raised actually. This makes so much sense now! Having grown up in Southern churches... Not all of the folks in them are rotten eggs, some are the sweetest people you'll ever meet, but there are the fair share of rotten eggs for sure. Just like anywhere I guess, but in the South you still have these pockets of mentality that are... questionable to say the least. Like the extremely unhelpful people your friend is dealing with... I can see them, the little church ladies with their shoulder pads, blue hair, and stern expressions... 

But to address the actual issue before I run off on a tangent that may or may not apply...

You are correct. In many Southern churches/microcultures the women are not "allowed" to be angry, at least not in public, and heaven forbid you call out a man. There's a reason I don't frequent churches, and this is reminding me of it all, sheesh. Also, PDs in general do not want to have anyone stand up to them, or prove them wrong. It's a bit beyond ridiculous.

From your description, you did not overreact. In fact, if it's encouraging, recall that Jesus drove the money changers out of the temple. With a whip. Saying they had turned His Father's house into a den of thieves. I kinda equate thieves and liars since they're both in the Ten Commandments, and it's not like you broke out a whip here for pity's sake. ( I would never advise that) Point is that righteous anger is actually a GOOD thing. I've also heard it called righteous indignation. (Sometimes it actually helps keep you safe) The qualifier is that it has to be guided by what God deems appropriate. I do not believe you were out of line in the least given the fearmongering that was going on.

PDs like religion in general, not any one in particular that I know of, because they can twist it in some way to lord it over all the mere mortals that they deign to grace with their presence/opinions/advice/commands, etc. I would not doubt that the majority of "holier than thou" people you run into are PD of some cluster.

I better not get started on the submissive wife bit... We'd be here all night. I just can't even... ugh.

[1footouttadefog]

I like the "submissive wife" thing also.  I am an expert at remembering and quoting the second half of that verse.....

Yeppers husbands are to do the right thing even if it means death and dying for the marriage.  So they should die before cheating, or frivolously quitting a job, or .......

At my friends church it was likely a combination of blue hairs and long jeans skirts types, in a denomination that meets on Sat.

[doingoveroroverdoing]

I'm very new & learning a lot from this forum.  It sounds like your anger was useful to you in that situation & I hope things work out. Criticizing   *how* someone addresses an issue can be, for lack of a better word, trollish. It derails conversations. People only have so much time to meet & the process troll wears everyone down.