NC, protecting self from abuse vs. holding a grudge

[Sidney37]

When we had our last conversation with uPDM she accused me of holding a grudge because I wasn't calling her.  She tried to demand that enF and DH agree with her that I was holding a grudge.   Now we are NC.  I don't want lan to change that.  Now that I've had some distance from the NC, I'm  just thinking through the difference between a grudge and protecting myself.  I was raised a Christian, so I'm also trying to understand it with that perspective. 

Not only did she accuse me of holding a grudge, her flying monkeys (who I am unfollowing, blocking, etc.) are now posting memes (certainly directed at me) about holding grudges and how terrible grudges are.  Memes that people need to forgive.

I've been reading about grudges and forgiveness.  I don't feel angry or resentful,  I'm not trying to get revenge.  NC isn't a grudge is it?  I feel better.  DH says I'm a better mom and wife when I'm NC. 

Have your therapists recommended any good quotes or books to help you understand grudges, forgiveness and protecting yourself from abuse/NC.  I can't imagine anyone would accuse me of holding a grudge if she had been physically abusive, I really need to read what a professional thinks about this.   

[moglow]

I believe forgiveness is a great and freeing thing. That doesn't mean, however, that anyone needs to throw themselves back into harm's way, at the whim and timetable of the ones being forgiven. You can absolutely forgive, yet still refuse to return to their damaging status quo.

I also believe that when I apologize and ask forgiveness, it's behooves me to learn from and not repeat that behavior. Otherwise it means nothing, it's just words. Heck, do they even understand yet that an apology is needed here??

I'll go out on a limb here, Sidney, and guess you're not doing as mandated. You're taking a much needed step back, getting some fresh air and clearing your mind of muck. When we step away from the chaos, it's not unusual to have an outpouring if demands that we return to our assigned role. We've upset the balance, such as it is, and that's confusing. That's something they have to work through, same as you.

What I keep going back to is, what others think of me is none of my business. Their (your parents and the flying monkeys) words/actions say a whole lot more about them than it ever will about you. I guarantee you've seen them treat others this way.

[illogical]

Your mother is engaging in classic projection-- accusing you of the very thing she is doing, i.e., holding a grudge.  Your mother resents the hell out of you for setting boundaries.

She is never going to accept fault here.  Rather, she will go to great lengths to vilify, shame and blame YOU for what she has done.  It is often written about Ns that if you want to know what they are doing, look at what they are accusing you of doing.  Your mother is holding a grudge, bigtime, so she is accusing you of the same.

Don't take the bait.  Don't defend yourself, or even contemplate that you are doing what she is accusing you of doing.  There is no basis in fact here. 

No Contact is not the same as The Silent Treatment.  The Silent Treatment is the N's way of punishing you for crossing them.  And they will hold onto that idea of punishment until they get what they feel is their due.  If they are unsuccessful, they will try another tactic-- such as projection, accusing you of the very thing they are doing. 

No Contact is a way of protecting yourself from their abuse.  It's a way to exercise control over what often feels like a powerless situation.  No, you aren't holding a grudge. 

Your mother is not going to ever admit fault for anything she has done to you-- the abuse, the lies, the smears-- nothing.

[Amadahy]

Silly Facebook meme, but truth :

*An apology without changed behavior is just manipulation.*

[11JB68]

Oh, the flying monkeys can be the worst! I'm so glad my nc started before fb was a thing! My aunt called me once and said "why are you doing this to us?"
Why was i 'doing this' to THEM??
Yeesh.
First of all I didn't go nc with my aunt...if she had called and offered support or to have a reasonable talk I would have been glad to. I also didn't go nc with my grandmother, uPDm saw to that!

[TwentyTwenty]

I'm sorry that you are going through this. Very good advice and comments above, agree 100%.

You mention you are a better mom being NC. It's very likely because you aren't under constant assault and being abused on an angoing basis when you are NC.

NC is definitely not holding a grudge, it is taking our life back from someone that was holding us captive. And I'm my case, it was also to improve my quality of life, happiness, ability to focus on my family and job.. Personal happiness and well being. We deserve to be happy and have peace.

If my parents had taken ownership of their abuse, recognizing and giving assurance that it would stop, we may have been in a different place now.

But they can't, because they feel as if they have done nothing wrong, they are entitled to discipline and scream at me even though I'm in my 50s with 2 grown children.

To align with forgiveness in the context of Christianity as you mentioned, there is a resource called Luke 17:3 ministries that gets to the core of forgiveness that you may find useful.

[Psuedonym]

This is 100% PD gaslighting. When I went NC with uBPD/N m last December, I wrote a really detailed letter about her behaviors and what needed to change. Whenever she's talks to my BF - who is very brave and in contact with her when necessary - she'll say 'I can't believe she has done/is still doing this to me!!' and he will point out that its 100% in her court. If she wants to change, great, if not, I ain't talking to her. Her response to that is 'well I'm not going to apologize! I'm not going to lie! I have nothing to apologize for!' It's pretty much like arguing with a brick wall.

The unfortunate thing about PDs is that their inability to accept responsibility for their behavior or self reflect is pretty much what makes them PD in the first place. You're not holding a grudge, you're having boundaries, which is a healthy thing. 

[StayWithMe]

You could try saying "Has she forgiven me?"

this will give way to "For what"

Have ready 2 or 3 things she did to you that's easy to say in one sentence each.

It works like a charm. 

[WomanInterrupted]

I agree with everything that's been written - you are NOT holding a grudge.  You put up a *boundary* (NC) to protect yourself from further abuse - there's a BIG difference. 

You don't want to hurt your mom - you want to protect yourself.  In the process, she *will* be hurt, mostly because she's not getting what she wants - not because she feels some kind of remorse over how she's treated you.  Hell, she was even telling you that you *have to agree with her that you're holding a grudge!* 

That's not a sign of anybody who is going to change, now or probably in this lifetime! 

She's projecting and gaslighting, and mustering the FMMS - you're wisely blocking them.  GOOD.  You don't need more of that toxic sludge in your life - and if they want to continue to drink her kool-aid, it should show you how small, narrow and shallow they really are. 

Your mother is always going to think she's right, or some kind of higher power, and you should just fall in line and do and say as she says - often to your own detriment, or even harm - and she *won't care,* just as long as SHE is happy and getting what she wants or needs from you. 

That's no way to live - it wasn't as a child, and it's *definitely* not now - with you as an adult, with responsibilities, a DH and kiddos, and a life you're trying to protect and preserve. 

But your mom can't even accept a simple direction to back off, give you some space, stop commenting or meddling without flying off the handle, or expecting you to report in daily, so she can nit-pick and criticize you half to death.  It's HER way or the highway - so you chose the highway.  It was the only option left. 

You will get a different kind of revenge, though - you'll lead a life-well-lived, and hopefully know success and happiness along the way. 

There's nothing wrong with that - we wish others *well* that we care about, and want to see them  succeed - not keep them down in the muck and mire, repeating the Cycle of Abuse.

Your mom is holding a grudge - while you are flying above the clouds, basking in the sun. 

[Nominuke]

Has the narc in your life made a serious attempt to resolve the issue? Have they apologised and acknowledged the damage they have done? Have they changed their behaviour and recognised your boundaries?

If not I would suggest that you are not holding a grudge, but protecting yourself from further abuse.

Prior to NC my Ndad would accuse me of holding a grudge and trying to settle scores etc, if I didn't forget about his latest abuse. Basically for him it was a useful tactic to continue doing what he wanted and one he could get his flying monkeys behind.

[all4peace]

DH and I found this video very helpful years ago when we were both trying to confront toxic family dynamics and felt sucked into the belief that forgiveness=reconciliation. It is faith based.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrNVTZdipjE

Another one by Dave Ramsey, again faith based: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP4pAaObSIU

[Sidney37]

all4peace
Wow.  Just wow.  I'm 1/2 way through the first link.  That completely puts together exactly what I have been reading here but in a Christian perspective - forgiveness without reconciliation.  It's not healthy to reconcile with someone who hasn't acknowledged their offense and changed.  As a Christian I can forgive and not have contact.  Just WOW.  Thank you.  That is exactly what I needed today.  I'm off to finish getting kids on the bus and to watch the second half.

[all4peace]

I'm so thankful you've found this helpful! My own distorted beliefs caused significant internal turmoil, as I had somehow internalized that forgiveness=reconciliation, and yet my parents weren't any safer and I was in a crisis of anxiety. I cannot even tell you how many times I watched that video to really rewire my brain and belief system. Now it seems obvious, but back then it was brand new territory for me.

Dave Ramsey's is good also, and he gives some great extreme examples that work to really explain the point.

I would add that my Christian views also used to believe that love=peace and non-confrontation. I no longer believe that either. Jesus was the epitome of love and he confronted, sometimes strongly and angrily. It is unloving to internalize all the consequences of someone else's bad behavior and not allow them to face their own cause-and-effect. (sowing what we reap) God forgave, and he forgot the sins, and yet humanity has always still had to face the consequences.

For me, I eventually got to the point where I was able to tell my parents that I would try to hold my heart open and soft, while they went and got significant professional help to work through their own wounds and trauma, and try to be open to them if and when they were ready for real relationship. Hasn't happened yet, and that could look like me grudge holding, but I know how much work and prayer it has taken for me to get here. And how many times I have to get back to that place again, over and over, when they engage in their antics.

[Sidney37]

All4peace
I think that was the most useful hour+ I have ever spent on YouTube!  Thank you so much.  This was a "game changer" so to speak. 

That is certainly not how I was raised to understand forgiveness.  I was taught in the church that you forgive and due to that forgiveness you  should practically jump right back into the situation.  Almost forgive and forget but not quite.  God forgave you.  You should immediately and automatically forgive others or you are a bad Christian.  And somehow you are supposed to go right back to how things were before due to the forgiveness. 

NO!  That's not forgiveness. I had no idea!  And when you forgive, you don't have instant reconciliation.  Who knew?  Knowing that the offender has to do or show certain behavioral changes prior to reconciliation is key and I hadn't heard that before.  It's what is said here often, but the Christian perspective helped me so much to combine  what I'm reading here with what I've been taught about forgiveness. 

Hearing over and over from enD that I have to ignore, forgive and accept that the way that she is while she continues to verbally abuse, insult, trample boundaries, lie, manipulate, etc. is just unacceptable.  It's not OK.  Apparently it's not loving to others not to set boundaries.  She needs boundaries as much as I do! 

Thank you.  I'm headed to read Townsend and Cloud "Boundaries" again and then to watch this again and again. 

Thank you so, so much!!!

[all4peace]

It's been helpful for me to take notice of the fact that even God expects us to acknowledge our sin and ask forgiveness before we can have connected relationship with him again. He loves us the entire time but still require that of us.

It is very useful for people who do not want to change to demand forgiveness and reconciliation from those around them. I'm thankful this has been helpful to you. Best wishes!

[Fortuna]

Even if you have forgiven her for everything she did, if you think she's going to do something to you or your kids again, it's not about forgiveness, it's about protecting yourself. Forgiveness does not mean allowing people to keep hurting you. If they don't atone, if they don't apologize, if they don't STOP the behavior that needs forgiving, NC is the only way to protect yourself.

[illogical]

Even if you have forgiven her for everything she did, if you think she's going to do something to you or your kids again, it's not about forgiveness, it's about protecting yourself. Forgiveness does not mean allowing people to keep hurting you. If they don't atone, if they don't apologize, if they don't STOP the behavior that needs forgiving, NC is the only way to protect yourself.

I don't believe your mother wants "forgiveness" because I don't believe she thinks she did anything wrong.  Rather, I suspect she wants you to sweep all her bad behavior under the rug and "carry on" as though nothing happened.  Then she can continue the Cycle of Abuse.  It's not like your mother is a non-disordered person who made this one mistake.  She has exhibited patterns of abusive and bad behavior your entire life.  None of that is likely to change because you "forgive" her. 

She is using her FMs to try to play The Guilt Card here, to project her own uncomfortable feelings of holding a grudge onto you, in hopes that you will feel responsible for the rift between you and come back into the dysfunctional web, where she is Queen and you and your dad and everyone else does her bidding.  Or else.  Or else she will pull the same ole stuff she is pulling right now to FOG you back in line.   

[Sidney37]

I don't believe now that I've watched those videos that she wants forgiveness.  She wants reconciliation without any of the necessary steps that proceed it.  She needs to see that she has done something wrong (really see and believe it), repent in a way that shows a behavioral change, apologize with a specific apology (not that she's sorry for "whatever" she did to make me mad) and ask for forgiveness. 

Reconciliation without anything else is what happened several years ago when I found this site.  She agreed to follow certain behaviors when DH and I set some basic boundaries.  She didn't think she had done anything wrong, didn't repent but faked a behavioral change, never truly apologized nor asked for forgiveness.  That's how I ended up back at this place.  I had a reconciliation without anything else.  It's behavior sweeping enabled and coerced by my father. 

I also did some reading on grudges.  Holding  a grudge would mean that I wanted something to negative happen to her as a consequence.  It seems to mean that someone has the desire to see another suffer, experience distress due to the original offense.  I don't want anything to happen as a consequence.  I just don't want to see her or hear her voice.  I want to protect myself from the verbal abuse.

I still don't like the feeling that the "other shoe is going to drop", because I know that that she can't go without holding a grudge.  I hate not knowing how she'll try to get at me next.  I don'l like being caught by surprise. 

[moglow]

She wants reconciliation without any of the necessary steps that proceed it. 

Yes! My guess, as with my own, is that's the the best answer you'll ever get. "Reconciliation" is all relative, depending on the mind at hand. Again, drawing the parallels here with my own - guessing in her view, unless/until you completely cave and do whatever it is that keeps her happy [which I suspect is highly changeable if not impossible] reconciliation doesn't exist on any conceivable level.

She needs to see that she has done something wrong (really see and believe it), repent in a way that shows a behavioral change, apologize with a specific apology (not that she's sorry for "whatever" she did to make me mad) and ask for forgiveness. 

Is this a possibility? Do you think she might - in time - be willing to listen to you? Is there anything you can to to bring this about?
Going back to your original comments and your posts in the past: This isn't in any way a grudge on your part. A grudge to me entails some sort of revenge or hope for revenge against another. It's actively doing what you can to harm that person in some way or encourage others to do so. It's wishing them ill, for lack of better words this morning. That's not what I see you doing. Pulling away from something/one that/who harms you is never a bad thing - and at the same time I understand if she has abandonment issues of some sort, she sees that as punishment. I don't know that you can ever say or do enough to change that mindset. SHE has to make that choice.

I wish I had some wisdom or comfort for you this morning. I'm there in it myself and can only offer a listening ear and a caring heart.

[Sidney37]

Thank you Moglow.  The help and kindness here has been so amazing.  Thank you for your listening and caring. 

I'm not sure that if in time she would listen to me.  Probably not.  She has never apologized for anything that I can remember other than years later about some of her actions and words when I was in high school.  She didn't really apologize.  She said she was sorry for being so bossy and blamed it on menopause.  My enD insisted when I last talked to him that she would never apologize.  I had to accept that was just how she was.  It was unfair.  But I needed to "forgive her" (= reconcile) and accept that she would't change.  I should just ignore the mean things that she says and say nothing back.  Up until I found this site, I would hold it in until I finally yelled or swore at her.  I found this site, stopped yelling and tried to do MC, but it was more of just ignoring and not setting boundaries.  This spring I started setting boundaries and she was furious.