How to deal when ex pd pops in and out of kid’s life?

[Mintstripes]

My ex pd went MIA on his (very limited, non-overnight) visitation schedule back in the summer because he was trying to punish/emotionally blackmail me.

Ofc, he tried to blame ME for his own behavior (the typical abuser tactic of "you made me do it"), as if I am the one who made him drop out of LO's life.

I haven't received any communication except for a passive aggressive message with a link to a parenting video (lol!) and a random text last week asking if LO was awake, past bedtime.

I suspect ex pd is going to start asking for visits again. This is so unfair to LO, who has been really upset about Dad not coming or calling anymore. It's heartbreaking. LO is under 5, btw. So, very young. 

I have spoken to my L to update about the situation, since ex pd has been going against his visitation order for months now.

I really hope it doesn't come to having to re-litigate and be dragged through court again, a possible psych evaluation, and all the uncertainty and anxiety that court brings. But my L and I have discussed hypotheticals, just in case.

It's SO hard to deal with an ex pd who you have a child with!!! UGH

[athene1399]

I can understand how frustrating it can feel to know the pd parent doesn't live up to even the smallest of expectations. Especially when they hurt the children because playing their game is far more important. The blaming is annoying too IMO. I dated a PD once and it really threw me off. I started feeling like I was the bad one and that I deserved to be treated badly because of it.

It's difficult to talk to younger kids abut it IMO. I guess I should say I don't have a lot of experience in that area. I'm a step mom and SD was a young teen when I started dating SO. A lot of us here agree that you shouldn't make excuses for the ex, but there's some grey areas we don't always agree on. Like if you should say "No matter what, PD parent does love you" or if you just leave that alone.  As the child gets older, you can start talking about mental disorders in age appropriate ways. Eventually explaining that no one deserves to be treated the way the PD treats them. Like no matter how upset that parent may be, that that doesn't give them a free pass to scream at you or punish you in mean ways.

Probably the best thing to do is to validate what your child is feeling. Tell her it's okay to be upset about it and you are sad too that he is not seeing her.

I think it's good you're already brainstorming things with the L. Staying on top of that helps to keep my mind at ease. I like being prepared for any scenario.

[Penny Lane]

Hi MintStripes, welcome to this part of the forum! But sorry you're here. I remember your story from separating and divorcing and how glad I was that you got out.

I'm so sorry your poor LO is dealing with this from your ex. It's such an awful thing from him to do to his kid just to get back at you.

(I also loled at the parenting video though. I would say he's the one who needs a parenting video but I don't think parenting videos cover "literally you have to show up to see your kid, that's the first step to being a good parent" because that is too obvious.)

So I think a lot of people on this board have had a sort of whiplash right about at this point post-separation. You just spent an incredible amount of energy, time, money, etc getting away from your ex. And your life is so much better for it! But then at some point reality sets in ... the ex isn't going to change and you still have to coparent. AND your awesome child is stuck with this person as a parent for the rest of their lives.

It really, really sucks.

My advice about court would be to think hard about 1. what you can realistically get out of it and 2. even if you can get it, is it worth the energy and money you'd spend? Or are those things better spent on preparing your kid for a lifetime with a disordered parent?

Your lawyer can tell you if what you want is feasible. Even here, on this board, with some of the worst parents I've ever heard of - you don't often hear stories of a parent's rights getting truly and finally taken away. That might not be a feasible goal. A more realistic goal might be something like, supervised visitation. Is it worth it to go through all that court entails for that? Probably, if you think your child is in danger from him. Maybe not if you're trying to prevent him from showing up inconsistently in LO's life.

Either way I think it's great that you're discussing options with your lawyer. Better to have all the info you need before things get really bad, than be scrambling after the fact.

The really sad thing is no matter what a court order says, your ex is going to be awful to your LO for their whole life. There's no court order that can change who he is, and a parent is always going to have an outsized impact on a child's life. My therapist gave me some really good advice: You can't control what the other parent, but you can help the kids become more resilient.

So the (somewhat) good news is that you can do things out of court to help your LO protect themselves from their dad. This could be practical stuff - like, we made sure my stepkids knew how to cook a meal in case their mom was passed out or whatever. They know how to call their dad or 911 if things get really bad. It can also be emotional coping skills - teaching them that they can love their parent even as they're disappointed; teaching them not to learn the same bad behaviors as the parent; teaching them that they are loved and worthy of love even if the other parent doesn't treat them that way. And so on. A good place to start is this link about talking to kids about PDs.  Toward the bottom there's a really good breakdown of age-appropriate discussions to have.

You can be your LO's teammate in navigating their dad's dysfunction. This doesn't mean trying to make them hate their dad (although if they grow up to be a healthy adult that might be the outcome, and I'd say eventual NC initiated by them is likely). This means always speaking about him neutrally, validating their sad feelings when he treats them badly and teaching them the tools to handle those feelings in a healthy way. There are two books that helped me with this a lot: Don't Alienate the Kids! by Bill Eddy and Coparenting with a Toxic Ex by Amy Baker.

Another thing you can do with the energy you could've spent on court is to tighten up your own parenting game. DH read parenting books and even took a class after he divorced - he found that he could be a much, much better parent without his ex around. I think you will too. And those resources helped him make sure he was putting his energy in the right direction.

I'm not trying to talk you out of court at all! If your L suggests it, definitely go for it. I just know (BELIEVE ME) how expensive and stressful a modification is, and I want you to know that you have other options.

Basically, you got through the sprint of divorce and now it's time for the marathon of dealing with your ex as your child grows up. I know that sounds daunting but you also have more time to sit back and be strategic about where you spend your energy. And you are able to spend more energy focusing on your own healing and needs as well, in a way that you probably couldn't do during the intensity of divorce.

And, please know you are not alone! This stuff is so hard and so awful. I don't know if it's possible to really truly be OK with the fact that your beloved child has a toxic person as their parent. And it's just a constant battle to prevent them from doing more damage. Basically you are in an impossible situation with no good answers and you just have to do the best you can.

[Poison Ivy]

This:  I don't know if it's possible to really truly be OK with the fact that your beloved child has a toxic person as their parent. And it's just a constant battle to prevent them from doing more damage.

[Mintstripes]

I can understand how frustrating it can feel to know the pd parent doesn't live up to even the smallest of expectations. Especially when they hurt the children because playing their game is far more important. The blaming is annoying too IMO. I dated a PD once and it really threw me off. I started feeling like I was the bad one and that I deserved to be treated badly because of it.

It's difficult to talk to younger kids abut it IMO. I guess I should say I don't have a lot of experience in that area. I'm a step mom and SD was a young teen when I started dating SO. A lot of us here agree that you shouldn't make excuses for the ex, but there's some grey areas we don't always agree on. Like if you should say "No matter what, PD parent does love you" or if you just leave that alone.  As the child gets older, you can start talking about mental disorders in age appropriate ways. Eventually explaining that no one deserves to be treated the way the PD treats them. Like no matter how upset that parent may be, that that doesn't give them a free pass to scream at you or punish you in mean ways.

Probably the best thing to do is to validate what your child is feeling. Tell her it's okay to be upset about it and you are sad too that he is not seeing her.

I think it's good you're already brainstorming things with the L. Staying on top of that helps to keep my mind at ease. I like being prepared for any scenario.

When he stopped coming, I told myself I will not make excuses for him. I just validate and say things like "I'm sorry you're sad because you miss your dad", "it's ok to be sad", "you're a great kid", and of course "I love you."

I will not say anything about how he loves her. If he does, he can prove that himself. I'm not going to gaslight her from a young age.

Thanks for your input Athene!

[Mintstripes]

Hi MintStripes, welcome to this part of the forum! But sorry you're here. I remember your story from separating and divorcing and how glad I was that you got out.

I'm so sorry your poor LO is dealing with this from your ex. It's such an awful thing from him to do to his kid just to get back at you.

(I also loled at the parenting video though. I would say he's the one who needs a parenting video but I don't think parenting videos cover "literally you have to show up to see your kid, that's the first step to being a good parent" because that is too obvious.)

So I think a lot of people on this board have had a sort of whiplash right about at this point post-separation. You just spent an incredible amount of energy, time, money, etc getting away from your ex. And your life is so much better for it! But then at some point reality sets in ... the ex isn't going to change and you still have to coparent. AND your awesome child is stuck with this person as a parent for the rest of their lives.

It really, really sucks.

My advice about court would be to think hard about 1. what you can realistically get out of it and 2. even if you can get it, is it worth the energy and money you'd spend? Or are those things better spent on preparing your kid for a lifetime with a disordered parent?

Your lawyer can tell you if what you want is feasible. Even here, on this board, with some of the worst parents I've ever heard of - you don't often hear stories of a parent's rights getting truly and finally taken away. That might not be a feasible goal. A more realistic goal might be something like, supervised visitation. Is it worth it to go through all that court entails for that? Probably, if you think your child is in danger from him. Maybe not if you're trying to prevent him from showing up inconsistently in LO's life.

Either way I think it's great that you're discussing options with your lawyer. Better to have all the info you need before things get really bad, than be scrambling after the fact.

The really sad thing is no matter what a court order says, your ex is going to be awful to your LO for their whole life. There's no court order that can change who he is, and a parent is always going to have an outsized impact on a child's life. My therapist gave me some really good advice: You can't control what the other parent, but you can help the kids become more resilient.

So the (somewhat) good news is that you can do things out of court to help your LO protect themselves from their dad. This could be practical stuff - like, we made sure my stepkids knew how to cook a meal in case their mom was passed out or whatever. They know how to call their dad or 911 if things get really bad. It can also be emotional coping skills - teaching them that they can love their parent even as they're disappointed; teaching them not to learn the same bad behaviors as the parent; teaching them that they are loved and worthy of love even if the other parent doesn't treat them that way. And so on. A good place to start is this link about talking to kids about PDs.  Toward the bottom there's a really good breakdown of age-appropriate discussions to have.

You can be your LO's teammate in navigating their dad's dysfunction. This doesn't mean trying to make them hate their dad (although if they grow up to be a healthy adult that might be the outcome, and I'd say eventual NC initiated by them is likely). This means always speaking about him neutrally, validating their sad feelings when he treats them badly and teaching them the tools to handle those feelings in a healthy way. There are two books that helped me with this a lot: Don't Alienate the Kids! by Bill Eddy and Coparenting with a Toxic Ex by Amy Baker.

Another thing you can do with the energy you could've spent on court is to tighten up your own parenting game. DH read parenting books and even took a class after he divorced - he found that he could be a much, much better parent without his ex around. I think you will too. And those resources helped him make sure he was putting his energy in the right direction.

I'm not trying to talk you out of court at all! If your L suggests it, definitely go for it. I just know (BELIEVE ME) how expensive and stressful a modification is, and I want you to know that you have other options.

Basically, you got through the sprint of divorce and now it's time for the marathon of dealing with your ex as your child grows up. I know that sounds daunting but you also have more time to sit back and be strategic about where you spend your energy. And you are able to spend more energy focusing on your own healing and needs as well, in a way that you probably couldn't do during the intensity of divorce.

And, please know you are not alone! This stuff is so hard and so awful. I don't know if it's possible to really truly be OK with the fact that your beloved child has a toxic person as their parent. And it's just a constant battle to prevent them from doing more damage. Basically you are in an impossible situation with no good answers and you just have to do the best you can.

Thanks so much, Penny. What you wrote really resonated with me .

Going back to court is a last resort for me but like you said, I'd rather know what would hypothetically lay ahead instead of being caught off guard. I'm glad my L is aware of the situation and how ex has been behaving. He's completely unreasonable and loves playing the victim.

Isn't the parenting video rich?! I ignored it lol

I'd rather spend my energy trying to be a good and present mom to LO. I am spread so thin. Even when ex was taking LO for visitation, I was only getting something like 16 hours a month to myself.

LO was playing a kid's game on my phone before her bedtime, while I was in the shower. Ex happened to video call her then, so I wasn't there when she answered (she knows how to do that now!). LO was THRILLED to see "Daddy", as you can imagine.

Enraging how he thinks he can just pop back in when he feels like it. I suspect he will be doing this her whole life. I also accept that I can't control this. I have waited and fought a long time to be free of abuse (FOO and ex). They won't ruin my life now.

I am often really angry at myself for having a child with him. But then again, of course I don't regret having LO, so I try not to dwell on it.

Also, I want to respond to what you said about it never being OK that one of her parents is toxic. Thank you. Thank you for not downplaying it. It does completely suck. I am NC with my own UN pd parents, and I sometimes get resentful of the family card I was dealt. BUT, the difference is that my LO has me and I'm a fighter.

[Mintstripes]

This:  I don't know if it's possible to really truly be OK with the fact that your beloved child has a toxic person as their parent. And it's just a constant battle to prevent them from doing more damage.

This stood out to me too.
But at least I am AWARE of it and the opposite of an enabler.

My mother was the classic enabler. My parents (we are NC) have been together almost FIFTY years. That's 5 decades of dysfunction and toxic patterns. I never had a chance. But I was and am determined to break the cycle. It's amazing what behaviors were ingrained in me, that I now have to fight against, as a mother and an adult! The brain and memory is a beast. There are things I haven't thought about since childhood, that I have to stop from doing by default (expressions my parents used to use that pop up out of nowhere, like what was THAT? Nope! Back in the past you go!!!!).

It's a constant struggle, and very difficult with no support system, but I'm trying... I cannot fail.

[Penny Lane]

When he stopped coming, I told myself I will not make excuses for him. I just validate and say things like "I'm sorry you're sad because you miss your dad", "it's ok to be sad", "you're a great kid", and of course "I love you."

I will not say anything about how he loves her. If he does, he can prove that himself. I'm not going to gaslight her from a young age.

This is really great stuff, exactly the right thing to say. Judging from this you are well on the way to breaking the cycle!

Enraging how he thinks he can just pop back in when he feels like it. I suspect he will be doing this her whole life. I also accept that I can't control this.

It really is enraging that a grown ass man is putting his own need for attention/desire to hurt you ahead of his own child. I think you're right, he will be doing this his whole life. I have a friend whose dad is a lot like this - from what she says, definitely has PD traits and sort of popped in and out of her life whenever he felt like it. Once I asked her for any advice she has for me with my stepkids and she said "never lie to them." I guess by that she meant, like, her dad would just not show up for visitation and then he would tell them that their mom didn't let him see them. In retrospect she knows the reality was that he made the decision not to come. But at the time she and her sibling were furious at their mom, and their mom didn't correct the record. I've tried to carry that attitude with my SKs - hiding their mom's bad behavior from them doesn't actually protect them. It sounds like you're doing this too! If she grows up to be an adult who's really aware of her dad's shortcomings, she can put an end to the inconsistent relationship herself. So in that sense, in the long run, you can't protect her from it per se but you can give her the tools to protect herself.

You aren't going to fail. It sounds like you will pull your LO out of the cycle of abuse through sheer force of will if necessary. You have been through so, so much in the past five years - more than a lot of people have been through in a whole lifetime. You are so strong to have gotten through everything with your FOO and your ex. You got through that successfully, you can do this too. And it really does sound like you're giving her what she needs to be a successful, healthy adult.

I meant it when I said that it will never be OK. Other people don't understand how awful it is. It's hard every day. (Though hopefully it's getting easier? And it's not as hard as living with an abusive husband every day?) It's reasonable to feel resentful sometimes and furious sometimes. Or sad. Or despondent. Name a negative feeling, it's probably a legitimate reaction to everything you've been through.

I want to bring up something I touched on earlier - are you able to do anything to take care of yourself? To work on your healing process or to just relax and live? You have survived so much and are clearly very strong, but it all does take a toll. There is so much joy in the world that abusive family members (FOO or marital) try to deny you. My hope for you would be that you can experience that joy now. With single parenting it's so easy to say "I'll take care of raising the kid for the next decade and then focus on me." But it's really good to do some stuff for yourself, to put yourself ahead of LO every once in awhile. I would even say it's not selfish, it's necessary to prevent burnout.

Can you find little ways to do that? Something like, sign her up for a very cheap class at a community center or library so that you get an hour break once a week. Or even the occasional "today we are going to stay in our jammies and watch cartoons all day (and mom is going to take a break from worrying about the million things that are stressing her out)." Or conversely "LO gets to stay in her jammies and watch cartoons all day while mom takes care of stuff around the house!" Or taking a day off work once in awhile so that you can take care of stuff or just enjoy some alone time while LO is at daycare. Ideally eventually it would be bigger stuff like getting yourself into therapy. But I know that kind of thing can seem overwhelming when you're just focused on surviving which is why I suggest starting with smaller ways to take care of yourself.

You can do this!