U/NPD exH not allowing ds to see non grandparents

[Associate of Daniel]

Any thoughts on what my obligations might be legally with this scenario?

Ds12 really wants to see his paternal grandparents (nons, I'm pretty sure) but his uNPD father is adamant he shouldn't and that I shouldn't facilitate any contact between them.

Any thoughts?

AOD

[Penny Lane]

Legally, this varies in the U.S. Some states have strong grandparent visitation, some have no rights at all. In all cases I think it'd be up to your ex to facilitate visitation with his own parents, but I'm not sure.

As for what you SHOULD do, I'm of two minds. On one had, getting your life more entangled with your PD ex's family seems like a recipe for problems. On the other hand, the presence of more loving stable adults in your son's life seems like a positive.

Another thing to consider is that the former ILs may not be on the outs with your ex forever. If he sees that they're getting close to you he might allow them back into his life. So whatever you decide I don't think you can rely on this newfound connection between you and the grandparents.

Maybe there are ways that you can facilitate contact in minor ways (I think in the past I've suggested letting them send each other cards) rather than full blown letting them see each other in person all the time.

What do you want to do? I would go with your gut on this. I don't think there's really a wrong answer for you, just whatever feels the most right (or, maybe, the least wrong).

[hhaw]

IF those Grandparents are good for your ds, stable, consistently available in his life.... I think the more the merrier when it comes to extended family.  No matter who's side it's on. 

The PD will likely go nuts, and jerk your son around, and call and text you and maybe file things, and go off on his parents, BUT that can be documented.

Your ds will SEE the PD's mask slip.  Would that be a good thing, a bad thing, or a neutral thing, in your opinion?

I think ds will be very grateful that you allow him to see his grandparents. 

If the juice is worth the squeeze.... I'd consider inviting the exIL's into son's life.

[athene1399]

I don't think you have any legal obligations to help DS see his paternal grandparents. But if you want him to see them, you can work something out. However, as someone said, your ex may not like that and that may cause problems (which you can document as Hhaw said). Maybe weigh out the pros and cons of you allowing him to see his grandparents on your time. Would you be comfortable being there? Like if you and DS met up with them at a restaurant or something. Or as Penny suggested, would it be more them writing each other or using skype/facetime to talk? Or would it look more like you dropping him off somewhere to see them? Or maybe you decide you don't want to take DS to see them until things calm down with your ex and you are done with court. I think there are a lot of things to consider before you reach a decision.

[Associate of Daniel]

Thank-you, all.

You've all covered pretty much every thought I have about the situation.

If it were just me to consider I probably wouldn't have contact.

My ex inlaws are nice people that I just don't really have anything in common with. I don't see them as pds.

It hurt(s) that they chose to essentially have no contact with me for close to 7 years since uNPD exH left. But I can believe that they were trying to be loyal to their son, trying to stay out of the middle and possibly believing the lies that were undoubtedly being told about me by uNPD exH and his uNPD wife.

They now seem to have seen the light, particularly regarding the uNPD wife, ds's smum.

With court and getting used to the fact that ds is going to live with his uNPD father and uNPD smum from next year, I really don't want any further drama. I just want to enjoy the time I have left with him as peaceably as possible.

But it's not just me I have to consider.  Ds wants contact with them and legally in my country the law takes very seriously the children's rights to see their grandparents and significant others.

I could ask my lawyer what my obligations are but I'm already forking out $10,000s to her for the court case.

I think I might sit down with ex inlaws and suggest they seek mediation/counselling/court with their uNPD son. Maybe they could ask for supervised visitation. I know it probably won't help but it would take the heat off me for a while and give me time to get through the current ongoing emotional upheaval.

It might make matters worse though as I don't think the ex inlaws have yet heard of or learned the tools that I have for dealing with the pds. They possibly still think that they can reason with them and get them to see the error of their ways...

Ds has gone quiet on the matter. "I don't want to talk about it, Mum."

I suspect his uNPD father (or more likely his uNPD smum) has told him a bunch of baloney about his grandparents that conflicts with his own experience with them, and he's probably as a result very confused.

I'm also confused as his uNPD father seems to be telling me one thing (don't let ds have any contact) and telling ds another (your grandparents are (who knows what) but you can still have contact with them.)

I've told uNPD exH that I have no plans for  future meetings between ds and his grandparents (true - no plans have been made but the expression of interest has been stated) , but that I couldn't promise to not arrange future meetings as I don't know where I stand legally.

Who needs daytime soaps?

AOD

[hhaw]

Well... you've nailed the struggle.

After reading your last post AOD, I feel contact between the GP and ds is more important, and I'll have to think about why.

IS it to spite the PDf and stepmother?

Or is it bc ds shouldn't be jerked around, and used as a pawn, and made to choose between his father and grandparents, bc it's an evil thing to DO to a child, and completely unfair?

I think it's bc ds deserves to be loved by decent loving grandparents, and you'd be a hero to help ds keep that connection in his life.

You already know the PD is going to be a PD about this. 

All you control is what you do, and how you choose to respond to the PD.

I think the PD might allege something serious, against his parents.... abuse against D, abuse in his own childhood,   PDs allege all kinds of stuff, and that still doesn't mean you have to buy it, or do as the PD instructs on your time.

Another thought.... having the grandparents in your corner, if that came to pass, might work out for you in many ways, including court.

Trust your gut, and good luck,

[Associate of Daniel]

Thanks, Hhaw.

So now uNPD exH has stated in an email to his mother that children are not safe in his father's presence.

I've seen no evidence of any inappropriate behaviour or conversation from his father, in the 20 years that I've known him.

But the fact that uNPD exH has documented his belief puts me in a tricky situation. 

If I facilitate contact between ds and uNPD exH's parents (especially his father) after such a statement has been made, he might set the law onto me.

The bulk of my income comes from working with children.  If it appears that I am placing my own child in "known danger", I won't be able to ever work with children again.  Tainted for life even if proven innocent.

That's just one aspect of the situation. 

The ex inlaws are reeling in shock. I cannot imagine how they are feeling.  It's ok for me to not love my ex (their son) but a parent can't stop loving their child.

Just devastating.  And meanwhile ds still wants to see them...

What a mess.

AOD

[hhaw]

Wow... all the PD has to do is threaten to make threats... and he gets his way.

It's a level of crazy I can't even consider entering.   

I'm sorry the PDs get away with ruling our lives with fear.... interpersonal terrorism..... but that seems to be a very effective tool when it comes to dealing with nons, IME.

We have to remember that the proof, and truth, is within your ds' relationship with his Grandparents.  DS knows the truth. 

DS should have some choice in retaining the relationship with his GP, IMO.

Sometimes the PD chaos outweighs the good things we're trying to give our children, so we let them go. 

Certainly, protecting your job is important.  It's sad to think unfounded accusations against your FIL could impact your job, but there it is. 

I wonder if ensuring FIL is always with MIL, or you would mitigate any risks in facilitating those visits?

I have to tell you...... proving my In Laws were doing actual damage to my children was SO HARD, and took years and hundreds of thousands of dollars to prove.  Thank God the Judge in the final case ordered them to pay the last 100K of my legal fees, bc I believe that's the only thing that stopped further legal cases.  As long as I had to pay high legal fees, the ILs still won, even if I won every case, which I did. 

When they had to pay my legal fees AND be ratted out as the abusers they were.... then they stopped taking me to court.

Grandparents have rights, and depending on the State you're in, some have more rights than others. 

If they've always been involved with your ds, they have more rights than if they haven't been involved, IME. 

This isn't your fight.  I should think it's the Grandparent's fight, and that you giving them time with their son means they don't have to fight it in the courts.

What does that leave?

The PD making threats in every direction?

You might want to know what kind of power the PD has to make trouble, or not.

It may turn out that the PD picks the wrong fight, ending in alienating his ds, and showing everyone what he truly is.

Sometimes things happen for a reason, and the times I backed down, bc my attorneys felt threatened, I typically ended up regretting backing down. 

Sometimes we avoid court, at all costs, and it means the PD avoids standing in the harsh light of that courtroom, with little evidence (or complete lack of evidence) to show everyone who he is. 

Sometimes we win everything when we get brave, and insist the court hear our plight.

You're being very reasonable, and always have been as far as I can tell.

At some point the PDs allege so many stupid things, it's clear they're lying liars, and not doing what's in their child's best interest, IME.

But you have to do what you have to do.  There's no doubt about that. 

[athene1399]

I think Hhaw has a good point about DS hearing uNPD xH say "you can't see FIL becasue he's abusive" and DS thinking "I've seen nothing like that. What is dad talking about?"

I also agree you can choose to leave this as being between uNPD xH and his parents. I feel you don't have an obligation to try to "fix" anything here if you don't want to.

On the other hand, if you think it's really important for DS to spend time with his grandparents, I feel you can still make that happen. IMO there are ways to work around your ex's accusations. You can make sure there is someone you trust with DS so he is supervised with his grandparents (or you can be there and supervise). That way you can say "I was there to ensure nothing abusive occurred. If it would happen, I would take DS and leave the situation." Or you can have him talk to his grandparents on facetime/skype or whatever and watch the conversation to make sure nothing considered abuse is said (Which I doubt would happen, but this way you can say you are supervising). And you can use it as evidence that the grandparents are not abusive or at the very least you are there with DS to make sure nothing that uNPD xH cautioned you about happens. Or you can suggest they send DS letters in the mail (but let them know since uNPD xH said [whatever] that you will be reading them first). Either way, make sure you have your bases covered so if uNPD xH brings up in court he said his parents were abusive and you let DS communicate with them that you can turn around and say I was always there (or someone you trust was there) and you noticed nothing abusive. And you can back that up with your 20 years of personal experience with FIL. "Nothing abusive has ever happened in my presence".

But that's also if you want to be a part of the situation. You dont' have to help the grandparents contact DS. As we discussed before, it may cause more issues with your ex (between you and him). I'm just saying, if this is important to you and you want to make it happen, I feel you still can. But it just adds another layer of stress to it IMO.

[hhaw]

I really feel that PDex would kind of.... lose his ability to appear reasonable IF you allowed contact with the Grandparents.  If it's ONLY the Grandfather, why is PDex so cruel to his mother in denying HER opportunity to have the relationship with his child?

I'll tell you why, bc you told me... this all started when your MIL ran into you.  THAT was when this punitive, childish, irrational behavior began, and your ILs KNOW that too.

You have choices, and it's good to keep in mind there are no good choices.   Standing down, placating the PD in every way isn't a great choice, but it sometimes feels like we're able to create more peace for our children if we do that, bc the other option is doing what's best for our child, which often means all out war for the PD.

That is insane, IMO, and the thing about war is.... your ds will SEE his PDfather BE what he is.  This might speed things along with regard to ds deciding who's who, and what's what, IME.

Of course I'm fancifully picturing the next court session including your ILs testifying on your behalf, which is prolly unlikely.  One big happy family, working towards limiting the harm the PD is doing, bc he's going  to be inflicting trauma somehow, bc that's what they DO.

At age of 12yo, my youngest dd was able to have a conversation around a topic this difficult.  My oldest dd was not, IMO.

If you think D could handle having this conversation....
"PDdad is mad at Grandma and Grandpa bc they were kind to me in public when we accidentally ran into each other, and is punishing them by not letting them SEE you...... what do you think we should do about that?  It will make your PD dad very angry if we see Grandma and Grandpa on your time with me, but I love them too, and think they're an important part of our lives.  What do you think about this?

I will also say this.....
Since the PD has tipped his hand, and let you know he's willing to allege some mystery abuse.... it's likely he's willing to die on this hill, and employ a scorched earth policy, which would be terrible for your son. 

Scenario 1.... PD attempts to appear level, and talk his way around the situation (with son mostly) without lobbing law suits, calling your employer (where, IMHO he'd end up looking like he's gone over the edge of insanity).  He'll still be threatening you and his parents verybally, perhaps in e mails and texts, but he won't actually follow through OR lose his ability to reason in front of your son. Honestly, it;s difficult to get the police to show up, and act when there's real laws being broken.  What laws are being broken if you allow contact with the Grandparents?  I'm assuming NONE.   Since the PD was allowing contact, up to the point his mother was kind to you in public, what would his argument be now?  Was your pdex putting his son in harm's way all these years, bc GF is abusive, or was he NOT?  The PD has to face the same questions here, as you, IMO.

Sometimes the PD losing the ability to keep their mask in place ends up working to the child's advantage, iME.  You can stop pussy footing around pretending the child isn't dealing with a PD, and just get on  with teaching them how to deal with their reality sooner, rather than later, AND you dont' have to continue fighting as many battles, IME. 

Scenario 2.... you comply with the PD's wishes to cut his parents out of your son's life.  You tell your son the same things I told my girls...... you'll get to see your GP again, things just have to calm down.  When your PDfather isn't so angry, then you'll be able to see your GP again, and that would actually be the truth.   The ball would be in PDfather's court with ds, where it should be.  If the PD told his son that his GF was abusive, Lord only knows what story he'd make up, that would be harmful to ds, just as not seeing his GP for zero reason that makes sense is doing harm.

DS would at least have the choice to weigh the information, and discern his feelings around them.  THIS could be the place where he decides his father isn't exactly level, trustworthy, or safe, kwim? 

OR this could be the place where ds is bullied into not questioning his father, or his own intuition, ever again.  There are risks involved, particularly as PDx has so much contact with ds, and his wife will be echoing the party line.

The courts might have a say,  and if there's YOU and the Grandparents and Daniel all speaking your calm, consistent truths.... maybe the PD would be unmasked, with the court limiting the harm he can do.... or at least attempt to limit the harm. 

If Daniel is a strong kid, and he seems to be, maybe this is where he learns about PDs.... (Daddy is sick) and acceptance around hard truths, and what comes after that difficult reality rears up.  He'd have you, and his Grandparents, and some safe contact with his PD father, and hopefully a good T to help him understand why people sometimes do irrational things that will never make sense, bc they're nonsensical.  That's a lesson we would all have done well to learn early, IME.

D feels loved by his father, you band the sm... and his Grandparents.  That's apparent.  He felt that in his formative 18months, and it's INSIDE him, very imporant that he does.  What comes next is less about his forming a healthy self image as 50%mom and 50% dad so he has to be sheltered from the truth, IME.

Now is about helping him SEE reality, and learn to navigate it for a lifetime.  There will always be a COW... crisis of the week.  If he learns how to handle this one, with his father, and grandparents, then he'll have those skills for every COW.   

There's always going to be harm  bc of the PD, IME. 

You have to decide if the relationship with the Grandparents is worth the heavy cost of dealing with the unhappy PD.  He's going to be unhappy about other things, lets not forget that.  Chaos and confusion will follow him like a big stink cloud.... which issue will Daniel have to face, and will he be strong enough to face it if you wait?

If it was me, I'd have to weigh heavily the relationship D had with his grandparents through the years.  Did they babysit?  Buy him clothes, take him to the park, spend time engaged in activities like fishing, cooking, nature walks, shopping, movies, regular visits, and have they always been there for him in the ways that good grandparents would be?

If they're been distance, haven't had much contact, have never babysat, or bought him necessary things, and made him feel special at birthdays and holidays.... I'd be tempted to keep my head down, and let that one go.

You can't spend your life challenging the PD chaos machine, so you have to choose your battles wisely, if you're going to choose any at all.  THIS one would seem worthy, AND you would seem to have allies in the struggle.

If Daniel was upset enough with his father, he might choose  to live with you again, and have his Grandparents solidly in his life over whatever it is his father has going on now. That's not a strategy for getting your son back home with you, IMO.  That's choosing a battle you  think will bring clarity, and a richer family life for your son, IMO.  Honestly, I have no idea what daily life at the PD father's is like.  WILL it become overtly abusive emotionally, or physically?  Will ds be shamed and guilted by both PDs?  I don't know, but I think you have an idea, AOD.

The terrible situation of having the PD lash out irrationally (at you, your son, the GPs) is both terrifying AND a gift when it shows everyone who the PD is, and you don't have to sit in fearful silence while waiting for that shoe to fall.

It can bring relief, and/or more chaos, and fear.  Sometimes it's fear and chaos, THEN relief.   

I truly do wonder what D would say about the situation.

Good luck,