Entitlement!

[p123]

I think this is what annoys me the most to be honest.....

Brother goes to see my Dad once a week. He lives locally and has no kids - so he sends his wife (who doesnt work) to see Dad once a week also.
I live 20+ miles away got kids (one with aspergers) and ill wife. I go see him when I can - up to once a week.

I've just come back from hols in Florida. So bit of jet lag this week (Im in UK). Kids back in school, both of us back in work.
Remember that brother is away for week from today.

So Dad calls - "Well x (brothers wife) usually comes up on a Thursday, brother comes up on a Saturday, you come on a Sunday". "Since he's not here this week, I know you've got work but I'll see you thursday evening, then I'd like to go out for the day Saturday and you can do some shopping for me on Sunday". It gets better. "If I give you my laundry on Thursday, you're wife can do it and give it back to me Saturday or Sunday".

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

I don't ever remember agreeing to be his part-time carer. I honestly, do not have the time to do this. BUT, in his head, I have no choice.
The laundry thing is a joke. I've refused MANY times in the past. He still asks......

Thing is he doesn't need help. He could manage easily on his own. Hes just very lazy and likes to get everyone running around for him as well.

I know I should treat this like water off a ducks back but it makes me SO ANGRY.....

Hes upset now because I said I don't have time to do all of this and I'll see him Sunday.

[lkdrymom]

You did the right thing. He thinks if he keeps saying it you will eventually wear down and agree. You did miss one good opportunity....to put in a dig that if he needs so much assistance (that you are unable to provide) he should really consider and assisted living.  Bring that up EVERY SINGLE CONVERSATION.  When he argues that YOU should be doing things for him point out that you CAN'T which is why you say ASSISTED LIVING would be best for him.  If he is going to be a broken record about you coming over be one back about assisted living. Have fun with it.

[p123]

You did the right thing. He thinks if he keeps saying it you will eventually wear down and agree. You did miss one good opportunity....to put in a dig that if he needs so much assistance (that you are unable to provide) he should really consider and assisted living.  Bring that up EVERY SINGLE CONVERSATION.  When he argues that YOU should be doing things for him point out that you CAN'T which is why you say ASSISTED LIVING would be best for him.  If he is going to be a broken record about you coming over be one back about assisted living. Have fun with it.

Yes I should have said that. I have in the past and all I get is "I don't need to go to one of those horrible places to die. You won't put me away there would you? All I need is a little help from you're brother and you as I get older. You can do that for me can't you?"

I've had the conversation MANY times about how I will do my best to help but I've got other responsibilities. In one ear and out the other. His standard thing is "Can you make a big effort to do X?" I've told him about 10 times I find this comment offensive and to say that is implying that I don't do it because I can't be bothered.

Even when I remind him of my other commitments he says "well you're family will have to understand won't they?"

Honestly, sometimes I think if I told him my house had burned down, I'm in hospital, my entire family are dead, he'd say "Aw thats sad. So are you going to be able to do my shopping at the weekend?"

[SunnyMeadow]

"I don't need to go to one of those horrible places to die. You won't put me away there would you? All I need is a little help from you're brother and you as I get older. You can do that for me can't you?"

He's very skilled in dishing out guilt! 

Like lkdrymom wrote, reply with the "this is concerning, you sound like you need to be in an assisted living place, dad" and do it all the time. It becomes your standard reply. Then maybe he'll stop the guilt and need or at least stop saying it to you and transfer it to your brother!

[p123]

"I don't need to go to one of those horrible places to die. You won't put me away there would you? All I need is a little help from you're brother and you as I get older. You can do that for me can't you?"

He's very skilled in dishing out guilt! 

Like lkdrymom wrote, reply with the "this is concerning, you sound like you need to be in an assisted living place, dad" and do it all the time. It becomes your standard reply. Then maybe he'll stop the guilt and need or at least stop saying it to you and transfer it to your brother!

Oh yes hes a master at it.

I've noticed he gets a bit exasperated these days though because its not working. In the past, he said things and I'd jump. His all time favourite phrase used to be "I thought you might have popped in to see me this weekend" or "I'm disappointed you weren't able to do this" and, as I said, "can you make a big effort this weekend?". Now when he says these sort of things I'll say "Right OK". or "I was busy" or "I told you I was busy" or "I can't promise" then change the subject. Works a treat with him.

It took me years to realise that I could not rely on my Dad to be considerate of my time, my health, or my family. Its always 100% of the time all about him. Now I realise that if I've got to let him down, its tough luck if he doesn't like it.

[Hazy111]

You can instill boundaries and enforce them but as long as theres contact he will always be chipping away at them. There is no compromise.

[Andeza]

Were I in your shoes... Every time I got the big effort comment it would be an automatic no. Just that. No. Full stop.

My UbpdM was complaining nonstop about money. How she can't afford anything with the extremely generous alimony she gets. So every time she bright up money problems I started asking if she applied for disability yet. It's a taboo topic. She's terrified of it. Poof! Money complaints all but ended. 

[p123]

You can instill boundaries and enforce them but as long as theres contact he will always be chipping away at them. There is no compromise.

Oh yes hes certainly persistent!

[p123]

Were I in your shoes... Every time I got the big effort comment it would be an automatic no. Just that. No. Full stop.

My UbpdM was complaining nonstop about money. How she can't afford anything with the extremely generous alimony she gets. So every time she bright up money problems I started asking if she applied for disability yet. It's a taboo topic. She's terrified of it. Poof! Money complaints all but ended. 

It REALLY winds me up. "make a big effort". Are you kidding me?

I'm sure he thinks I'm sat at home drinking beer - I wish!

Of course, what he really means is "put me before the rest of your family and I'm going to do what I can to get my way".

[lkdrymom]

"I don't need to go to one of those horrible places to die. You won't put me away there would you? All I need is a little help from you're brother and you as I get older. You can do that for me can't you?"

He's very skilled in dishing out guilt! 

Like lkdrymom wrote, reply with the "this is concerning, you sound like you need to be in an assisted living place, dad" and do it all the time. It becomes your standard reply. Then maybe he'll stop the guilt and need or at least stop saying it to you and transfer it to your brother!

Oh yes hes a master at it.

I've noticed he gets a bit exasperated these days though because its not working. In the past, he said things and I'd jump. His all time favourite phrase used to be "I thought you might have popped in to see me this weekend" or "I'm disappointed you weren't able to do this" and, as I said, "can you make a big effort this weekend?". Now when he says these sort of things I'll say "Right OK". or "I was busy" or "I told you I was busy" or "I can't promise" then change the subject. Works a treat with him.

It took me years to realise that I could not rely on my Dad to be considerate of my time, my health, or my family. Its always 100% of the time all about him. Now I realise that if I've got to let him down, its tough luck if he doesn't like it.

All he needs is a little help...well no he doesn't .  He wants a lot of help.  When he says that you reply "That's the thing Dad...you see it as only a little help but it is much more than I am able to give so that is why you need to consider assisted living."   Try to work "assisted living" into damn near every sentence that you can.

[Andeza]

I agree, name drop "assisted living" like its you besty bestest friend forever! Make it ever-present! He'll call less.

[WomanInterrupted]

Definitely work "assisted living" into the conversation as much as possible - and DO leave brochures for AL, before you leave. 

That way he'll know you're not only thinking about it, but have stopped at a few  - with luck, that should get him to call you less and less.

The bonus is he *knows* you were "busy" and couldn't make time for him - but you *could* make time for visiting a couple of AL facilities.  He won't know if you spent 2 hours, touring facilities, or just popped in to get the brochures - but it will *definitely* make him uneasy, and hopefully reliant on anybody NOT named P123! 

[p123]

All true - in his head all he needs is a "little help" which kids should be happy to do for their parents anyway because its they're job. BUT 90% of the time its not things he NEEDS at all.

The worse thing is when there is an easy way to solve the problem and he wont do it. The grocery delivery is an example. He will moan hes got no food and expect me to drive 50 mile+ round trip take 2 hours to do shopping for him because home delivery costs £2 and he doesnt like it. What? Seriously? (In the UK, gas/petrol costs more than the USA. Fuel alone would cost me 3x the home shopping delivery cost!)

Yeh the "assisted living" thing. I've tried but in his head, if I was serious about that then it would mean I had "written him off to die" and there would eternal shame and damnation on me. So he doesnt take it seriously because "I'd never do THAT and I'm happy to help him a little".

[lkdrymom]

Well start convincing him that you would do THAT!  Arrange a lunch trip to one so he can tour it.  Kills two birds with one stone....you get credit for taking him out and you make your point that you are not kidding around anymore.

My father was the same.  I could deal with the every other week shopping trip.  It was all the phone calls that started "I've got a problem..."  "I think the end is near"   "I need to see you ONE LAST TIME".  He was always "dying" of this thing or that.  Always had something important to tell me then when I make the BIG effort to get there he'd tell me "never mind".   I'd ask him what he needed so I could stop on the way there and I'd either get "I'll tell you when you get here"...not thinking I really didn't want to drive all the way there then go back out and back to his apartment...or I'd bring what he asked for and he say didn't you get "X"? No you didn't say that...ok you can go get it now.  No respect for my time.  It doesn't occur to them that they are work for you. In fact they think doing things for them is somehow a reward to you.

[p123]

Every single time I speak to him now it goes like the following. Every single time now I get off the phone totally annoyed....

Dad: So are you coming up after work one evening this week?
Me:  No Dad we already discussed this on monday, I've got childcare issues, I'll be there sunday.
Dad: Well I thought you'd have made a bit more of an effort. I'm disappointed that you've let me down.

(Letting that one slide we move on).

Dad: So I'm DESPERATE for food, not sure if I've got enough food in the house to last until sunday. I don't know what I'm going to do if you don't come sunday. I hope you come - can you make a big effort?
Me: I plan to come sunday but I'm doing On Call/Standby with work and we've spoken about this.
Dad: Well you'll have to sort something out.
Me: Well.....
Dad: Oh no. What am I going to do? You'll have to come. I hope you can make an effort.

(another one to let slide)

A bit of info about some of the stuff above that I've mentioned on the forum before.
As you can see I never ever promised to visit after work this week, in fact, from the off I told him I couldn't.

The food thing is a nightmare. I bought him a large freezer but EVERY time he buys as little as possible so it deliberately runs out. I've offered to arrange home delivery and he refuses. I also know for a fact that my brother has been there TODAY and done shopping for him. Its a game for him.

As Is me being On Call. He hates it. I've tried to explain. I have no control over it. I can't "make an effort" not to get called out. I could get called any time 24 hours a day. If I've got plans and I get called then I have to cancel. My family know this and have to put up with it but, apparently, his "wants" supercede this.

Am I being a bit sensitive here or is this conversation we had a bit off? Like I said EVERY single call is like this and I've had enough.

How on earth can you be "disappointed" and how can I have "let you down" when I said from the off I wasn't able to do it? More like disappointed he can't get his own way.
And if I had a dollar or pound for every time I heard the words "DESPERATE" or "HOPE" I'd be a millionaire by now. And don't get me started on the "make an effort" thing - that winds me up into a frenzy!!!!
Surely normal people don't use these sort of words in normal conversation unless they're trying to guilt trip someone?

I think worse of all though, its apparent, Dad does not give one second of thought to my well being or that of my family. Hes proved this in the past. (Another story I posted where I was up at 4am with work and he conned me into driving over to see him later on in the day when I'd had little sleep - thanks Dad).

Surely, a normal parent in this situation as above, might like to see their son/daughter during the week but if their son or daughter couldn't make they'd just say "oh ok I understand then, see you the weekend". Also, if a planned visit had to be cancelled because of something like being called into work (which is part of my job, I get paid for, and have little say in) may be disappointed but would just say "ok see you next time".

But no, I get the guilt laid on that hes starving to death, can't cope, or hints that I'm being a bad son and not making an effort. And these deliberate plays to manipulate the situation to his advantage (like with the food in the freezer) make it worse. Its just not on to be honest and I've had as much as I can take with him.

Last year or so I've dreaded every time I've had to phone him or visit him. The conversation always goes like this on the phone. When I visit hes even worse - some of the things hes said to me defy belief. You couldn't make it up the things he thinks hes got a right to comment on.

My wife hates him and shes got a very good point - the things hes done and the rude things hes done to my family are unbelievable.

SO, for all his tricks hes not realised that I want to see LESS of him these days than I ever did. He knows he does things to annoy me but he keeps doing it. His excuse "you know me I've got something to say I've got to say it". No you don't. Its had a negative affect on what hes trying to achieve. The more he pushes the more I back off now.

Thing is he doesn't think hes done anything wrong. Can guarantee if I pointed out to him the things hes done, the way hes out of order, how much hes manipulated me and how upset I am about, how much my wife dislikes him he'd look at me with Big Sad Puppy Eyes and says "what have I done? I didn't do anything"

He comes across as a sweet helpless old man. Hes very good at that act.

[p123]

Well start convincing him that you would do THAT!  Arrange a lunch trip to one so he can tour it.  Kills two birds with one stone....you get credit for taking him out and you make your point that you are not kidding around anymore.

My father was the same.  I could deal with the every other week shopping trip.  It was all the phone calls that started "I've got a problem..."  "I think the end is near"   "I need to see you ONE LAST TIME".  He was always "dying" of this thing or that.  Always had something important to tell me then when I make the BIG effort to get there he'd tell me "never mind".   I'd ask him what he needed so I could stop on the way there and I'd either get "I'll tell you when you get here"...not thinking I really didn't want to drive all the way there then go back out and back to his apartment...or I'd bring what he asked for and he say didn't you get "X"? No you didn't say that...ok you can go get it now.  No respect for my time.  It doesn't occur to them that they are work for you. In fact they think doing things for them is somehow a reward to you.

Yep my time is his apparently. Two hours of my time equals 30 seconds of him having to do something like answer the front door to the man delivering the groceries because "I dont like doing it".

Oh I had the dying thing one Xmas day. I used to drive 30 mins pick him up, drive to our house back 30 mins, he'd stay for a few hours for dinner, then repeat. Great eh? One year I should have left him home - he was moaning from the off. He'd been back and fore the doctors for a few weeks, called an ambulance a few times - was CONVINCED he should be in hospital. Doctors thought not - all he had was a bit of a cold.

So he came to our house. Made sure everyone knew how ill he was. Pretended he couldn't walk from one of the living room to another (normally he walks a good 400-500 yards to the store at home). Ate all his dinner though and extra (so wasnt that bad).

Took him home. Decided he was feeling worse by the time he got home. Decided he "wasn't going to make it thought the night" or at least until the doctors office opened after the xmas break. Wanted to call an ambulance because he really needed to be in hospital. Stupidly, I stayed to calm him down. All the while my 4 year old was sat at home (I got home 10pm xmas day evening) waiting for me to come home. Wife was not impressed. I can never forgive Dad for doing that to me.

As an end to this story a week later he "had a fall" and ended up in hospital (which was what he wanted all along). Very suspicious cut on the top of his head which the hospital mentioned. He forgot to stick to his story so we had two different versions. To this day, 99.9% sure this was self inflicted - he'd gone over to the kitchen cupboard and deliberately scraped his head along the bottom of the door. Great eh?

[lightworld]

I totally get this P123, both my parents did the same thing. M died last  year but she used to wail at me every time I phoned "when are you coming?  I need x or y doing". Even when I broke my arm, all she said after listening to me tell her I was in plaster and couldn't drive, was "when can you come then?"   We moved 300 miles away five years ago and she said "how could you DO this to ME!!!"

F was the same until I stopped fixing things and  let him get on with it. In short order he'd got himelf into a care home and recruited a new set of 'helpers' who shopped and took him out regularly until they realised how entitled he felt to their undivided attention 24 hours/7 days a week.

Am I being a bit sensitive here or is this conversation we had a bit off?

No, absolutely not, it's not normal for a parent to demand this level of attention. He simply does not see you as a whole person with a family and a job, IMV he just sees you as someone who does what he wants and when you don't, he sees it as just a malfunction and if he keeps on with the same routine, you'll do what he wants in the end.  Sadly, as I'm sure you know, the reality is he won't change, it's crazy making and frustrating as hell. He is not taking responsiblity for himself, he expects you and B to do that. Look at the 3Cs in the toolbox, I didn't cause it, I can't control it and I can't cure it.

How on earth can you be "disappointed" and how can I have "let you down" when I said from the off I wasn't able to do it? More like disappointed he can't get his own way.
And if I had a dollar or pound for every time I heard the words "DESPERATE" or "HOPE" I'd be a millionaire by now. And don't get me started on the "make an effort" thing - that winds me up into a frenzy!!!!
Surely normal people don't use these sort of words in normal conversation unless they're trying to guilt trip someone?

No you are so right they do not but your F is PD and as a normal functioning, kind and  compassionate person, you're not going to be able to understand how his minds works.

Thing is he doesn't think hes done anything wrong. Can guarantee if I pointed out to him the things hes done, the way hes out of order, how much hes manipulated me and how upset I am about, how much my wife dislikes him he'd look at me with Big Sad Puppy Eyes and says "what have I done? I didn't do anything"

Yes my F said this once he'd worked through all the possible reasons why I don't visit, I've accepted that he will never see it.

You've said you can't go on like this and I understand, I (finally) got to that stage after trying for years to fix things for my parents. I realised nothing could ever be fixed, they didn't want it because it would mean that they would have no excuse to guilt trip B and I.  It's hard but the best thing is for you if you let go, you've offered to set up grocery delivery and he doesn't want it so you are not responsible if he runs out of food. You are sticking to your boundary of only visiting Sunday which is good but what about trying to cut it down further, stock up his freezer for a month, say you are busy (thanks WI!), don't listen to his whines, read the paper while you're on the phone to him to distract yourself, us MC only, don't explain just say "no can't make it that time/day". Any excuse you give IME leads to wheedling, manipulating and circular conversatons (yes you can, you're my SON"). There will never  be a normal  interaction with him so you need to protect yourself and your FOC.  I've successfully used these tactics with F and I don't feel guilty, he's got a personality disorder, we are never going to see things the same way, we will never understand one another. Yes he's unhappy, lonely and angry but eventually he's sorted himself out and I can live with that.

[p123]

Thanks light. Im getting my head around the "not my problem" thinking quite well. I honestly do not give a monkeys - I've tried to help hes turned it down so crack on.

What I struggle with is how annoyed he makes me feel. Its a constant battle with him.

[lightworld]

I know - that's the hardest bit but if you can accept that all interactions with him will not make sense because he's PD it makes it a bit easier to think "here we go - whatever!"

[WomanInterrupted]

You can harness the annoyance and use it to make your boundaries stick - and I think it's time you harden your heart to his FOG, stop explaining things to him (JADE), and tell it like it IS.

Say he needs groceries - starving.  Again, some more.   

You:  Dad, I'm not coming until Sunday.  You can have groceries delivered, or figure out something else, but I will NOT be there before Sunday." 

Him - but, but, starving, old man, I'm your priority, I'm just an old man, and I'm huuuuuuungry....you wouldn't let me starve!? 

You:   Dad.  Either you have groceries delivered or figure something out.  I won't be over until Sunday and that is my final answer.  Goodbye." 

Then hang up and block him until Sunday.  Chances are, he'll mooch off somebody - but he's perfectly capable of figuring it out, and just doesn't WANT to. 

The same with work - don't explain.  He doesn't listen, he doesn't care, save your breath -you may need it one day. 

"Dad.  I am not coming over for two weeks." 

But - reasons! 

"I'm not coming over for two weeks.  Whatever you need in that time, call brother, or I'm sure you're capable of figuring it out.  Bye." - and BLOCK! 

The same goes for your FOC, or any other thing - all he's got is negative things to say (too expensive!  I come first!  You're wasting your money!) - *stop telling him anything!* 

You'll thank yourself after you tell him you're doing well, the kids are good, wife is fine, job's going well, everything is just fine and lovely - and you haven't handed him a crumb of information to use against you. 

I don't care if you had a Week from Hell, or the Best Week, Evah! - he hasn't earned the *right* to hear about any of it. 

Something that helped me, and I think it will help you, is to *stop thinking of him as your parent.*

What you're dealing with is some rando who just walked up to you and demanded your car keys, with NO explanation.  He just sticks his hand out, expectantly, getting angrier and angrier with each second that you don't automatically just do as he says.   

Would you *reason* with that person?  Would you try to *explain*? 

Hell, no!  You'd ask if he's freaking high, and tell him to GO AWAY. 

That's how you have to handle your dad - it's how I had to handle unBPD Didi and unNPD Ray, too - you take ALL emotion out of it and stick to the facts.   

I can't do that.  I just old  you why - I can't do that.  I'm not coming until Sunday - I'm busy.  Very busy - no, I can't change my schedule, and no, I don't feel like sharing - it's boring and stupid.  I'm sure you'll be fine, on your own - or figure something out. 

Didi and Ray never stopped trying to hector and badger me, but I think it did sink in somewhere that once I said NO - that was it.  There was no compromise to be had, no matter what they said, did or pulled.  My NO outranked their bleats of bored, lonely and old.

Your NO outranks your dad's bleats, too - and I really do think it's time you play hardball - it's the only way he's going to take you seriously, and look elsewhere for his "needs."