Learning Self-Validation

[Wilderhearts]

I've been reading "The Narcissistic Family" by Donaldson-Pressman & Pressman.  (Note: "narcissistic family" refers to one in which the real/felt needs of the parents always trump the needs of the children - applicable but not exclusive to parents with NPD/PDs.)

Something the authors talk about in Chapters 5 & 6 ("Feelings & Communication" and "Setting Boundaries") is that self-validation is essential to communicating feelings and setting boundaries.  Self-validation meaning we recognize we are entitled to feel what we feel, and (not) want what we (don't) want.  ACONs were taught they never have a right to any feelings that are threatening to the NPD parent.  For me, this includes my sense of accomplishment, my right to feel angry, or hurt, or proud, and my right to express how I experienced reality, and my right to set boundaries or tell people what behaviour I won't tolerate.  All stamped out by a system of gas lighting and shame used to invalidate.

Pressman talks about how the inability to set boundaries all boils down to the inability to self-validate (pages 85-86).  Speaking of counselling clients who will quit a relationship rather than sit down to resolve a hurt, they say "What these individuals are, however, are people who cannot recognize the legitimacy of their feelings and needs - who cannot self-validate- so they genuinely cannot fathom the possibility of sitting down with a spouse, friend, colleague, or whomever and having a reasonable discussion to set boundaries so that those feelings and needs can be accommodated."

Even when I act as if I have a right to my feelings and needs and try to assert them, I just find I'm constantly invalidated by outside sources, which plays into my doubt (that is ALWAYS in the back of my mind) that actually, I don't have a right to these feelings, these needs, or setting these boundaries.  I'm being self-indulgant, selfish, unfair to others when I factor myself in and assert my boundaries or needs.

How do you get past this?

[notrightinthehead]

I think there are two aspects to that. The one, self-validation of your feelings, telling oneself that what I feel now is perfectly fine, I have a right to feel like that; and second to express such feelings to another person, which requires trust and some intimacy when we are dealing with difficult feelings like anger, envy, rejection. I certainly choose very carefully with whom I share some feelings out of the need to protect myself.

And then there is the implementation of boundaries. In a healthy relationship you would tell your friend, please don't call me at 3 in the morning, except when it is a life threatening emergency, because I like my sleep and it irritates (expressing your feelings) me to be woken up at that time. Your friend would respect your boundary and call at a reasonable time. In a relationship with a PD, however, you might end up being told what a spoil sport you are and called more regularly at early hours. You would implement a boundary by blocking the person or switching off your phone. Any further talk would only lead to further insults.
As you find that you are constantly invalidated by outside sources,  look at the outside sources critically. Do you really need their permission to feel what you are feeling? Are they really in a position to judge if your feelings are right? And I am not saying that your feelings are always appropriate or justified, they are your feelings and you feel them, that's all.
When it comes to your needs and boundaries - I agree that needs should be expressed as clearly as possible. Then it is for the other person to choose whether to fulfil your needs or not.  Like when you say: 'I need you to be on time for our appointment.'  As for boundaries - you may or may not express them to the other person. You could say ' I will wait for 5 minutes, then I will go without you.' and state your boundary (5 minutes waiting) or you could just agree to that boundary with yourself and not tell the other about it. You do not need another person's permission to implement a boundary. A boundary is just for yourself, setting yourself a limit of what behaviour you are willing to tolerate from another person - and what not.
Looking at the comments you get  "self-indulgent, selfish, unfair to others", it sounds like you experience resistance to your attempt at implementing boundaries. When you change the rules, people understandably will resist. It is up to you to be consistent with your new style of interaction. True friends will accept the new you and others will fade away.

[SandorS@DEyes]

Wilderhearts, I sympathize with you.  I think relatively healthy people typically do not react poorly to our boundaries or needs, provided we express them in a non-threatening but firm way.  That said I think there are so many unhealthy people in the world that the amount of pushback you can get when asserting/maintaining boundaries can feel overwhelming.  And if you've already been through long-term invalidation at the hands of someone else it can feel a lot like one step forward two steps back.  The PDs in our lives get us to not trust ourselves, our own feelings and internal warning bells, and to doubt our perception of reality.  You really have to try to become Outcome Independent as far as other people are concerned- you WILL assert your boundaries and declare your needs and those around you can take it or leave it, but their reaction doesn't hold sway over your course.  Its easier said than done and its definitely possible to over-do it and steamroll people occasionally but I think its to be expected when you're trying to get the pendulum to swing back the other way (it always swings too far to the other extreme BEFORE settling out in the middle).  And obviously there's a big difference between "I will not get in a car with someone who has been drinking" vs. "I will get that promotion at work by any means necessary".  Outcome Independence doesn't legitimize any Machiavellian behaviors.  We are not responsible for anyone else's feelings or reactions except our own, but too often I feel like that's applied to blatantly abusive scenarios (It is not your fault your parent beat you).  It doesn't apply to just the extremes of bad or outright dangerous behavior, it applies to everyone at all times. 

I think this stuff is all about practice.  You can read all the books, watch all the videos and listen to all the podcasts about something, but until you get out in the field and start implementing it that's all theory floating around in your head.  The mind and the body react a certain way to invalidation and if you experience it enough it becomes expected and normal.  This is reprogramming yourself to react differently and with a new set of rules, and the only way for that to happen is in real-life scenarios.   A few weeks ago I had an extremely invalidating encounter with someone I would not have expected and I immediately blocked them on my phone and all other forms of communications.  A year ago I would have tried to explain and defend myself due to the guilt this person made me feel (which was not their fault, I recognized that I was experiencing guilt but I also told myself I did not deserve it).  You need the whole process to happen in order to make this stuff stick, it isn't enough to sit around and recite "I have needs, I love myself".  You're in a situation where you're being invalidated, you recognize that and instead of doing what you've been accustomed to you react differently- you block people's phone numbers, you go no contact, you tell a person you aren't comfortable and you're leaving- whatever the case, its the ACTION that seals the deal.  Your mind and body cannot argue with action.  I've begun looking at the times people resist and push back on my boundaries or invalidate my emotions as training opportunities- if I were working out those would be my "working sets", when the real work gets done to make me stronger.  All of the reading I do, the meditation I am learning, listening to various audio books about recovery and such, that's the "warm up".   Its necessary; it helps grease the groove as we learn and hone technique, it warms up the ligaments to prevent injury, it gets the mind prepared to be in the zone for the working sets.  The working sets can be unproductive and even dangerous without the warm up work, but eventually you have to load the bar and really push some weight.   

[treesgrowslowly]

This is a great question and notrightinthehead and as sandors@deyes explained it perfectly.

With some people in your life you will notice that you need more boundaries with them. This isn't really up for negotiation once you have seen how they treat your boundaries. There are just some less mature people out there who don't respect boundaries. They've shown you who they are - believe them.

You are the more mature one in the friendship or relationship when you are able to assert your boundaries. This can throw off plenty of established dynamics for us ACONs. Which led me to the exaxt questions you are asking and I still have to work to practice.

Some of the confusion I used to experience is rare now because I self validate way way more often.

When I am tired or stressed, I slip into forgetting to self validate. This will always be the case and I am learning to roll with this reality.

I love sandors@deyes analogy with lifting weights and needing to warm up first.

I'll add the stuff I'm currently challenging myself to practice more on this same topic. We learn as ACONs that our needs don't matter and what you summarize from that book is bang on.

Its in adulthood that we recover our connection to our own needs, and I think we all know how challenging it is to identify needs in this more authentic way, as an adult, when childhood was so awful on this front. 'Actual' adults who had good enough parenting, lets assume they had their needs validated adequately enough in their childhood, they dont always get it right either. Adulting is its own skill, we ACONs come to it with gifts and burdens they dont have. Your post reminds me of this insight.  These adults who are not ACONs, they don't always know what their needs are and how to meet them and they should be doing this work we are doing too.

I started to lesrn how we ACONs are behind in that piece, yet we typically are miles 'ahead' in other ways, because our coping skills got extremely well developed.

Confusing! How can we be so good at some things and still not good at self validation?

I was watching a tv show recently where a psychologist said that abuse distorts your reality and makes you doubt your self. I was like yep, she nailed it!

We have to assert our adult needs, which involves knowing them. Which not even a lot of people around us are doing with themselves. 

You asked about getting past the doubt. I think you're doing the stuff that helped me get further away from doubting myself so often. Now I feel that doubt about 20% of how often i felt it 3 years ago. I kept practicing self validation. If I'm hungry I'm hungry. If I'm tired I'm tired.

Invalidating environments are a problem during this progress. Identify places where you are more likely to stay convinced of your need for x. Limit your time with people who are in their own little world. Even if they are the nicest folks on the planet, and therefore not triggering the anxiety of a narcissistic person, they are focused on their thoughts. They can pull me in so easily, and say things to me about my needs, that are rushed, mindless 'chatter'.

Someday soon you will hear someone trying to invalidate you and feel completely aware of how little this has to do with you. Few people are self aware enough to consider your boundary thoughtfully before reacting to it.

You know how there is that stage as an ACON where it feels like there are NPDs everywhere? There's another stage where we ACONs are realizing that many nonNPDs we know don't practice self validation very much either. When we start practicing it is when we start to notice hey wait a minute there are people in my life, who are not PDs, and who don't recognize what I'm doing by asserting this healthy boundary for myself.

Self validation leads to further individuation, which member Spring Butterfly reminds us is the key to emotional freedom (in their signature line in posts). I hold onto that and keep practicing self validation as a daily practice. Let other people have opinions about you. If they don't understand your boundaries and don't ask for clarification and take the time to listen when you express the boundary, well I guess now you know their boundary. They only listen if it suits them. I'm harsh but I'm honestly so tired of how ACONs who are recovering, get told we are selfish for trying to recover our sense of our needs.

It's time to assert that loving ourselves isn't a selfish act! I feel protective of ACON recovery work. It is SO important!!

[StayWithMe]

The problem that I have had with validation is that sometimes you need exterior influence.  That is what our socialization is about, learning what the minimum expectations are and working from there.

The problem that I have had is that my parents are highly opinonated and since they do not move through the world that I do, they refuse to see things any other way. 

But also, I have learned to just accept certain things and to stop swimming upstream.Using the following example as how one might filter exterior advice and validation, my sister has the kind of job that she gets to meet celebrities.  She had a photo of herself with a particularly hot guy so I asked her if he asked for her phone number.  She said no he didn't and that she was sorry that she didn't ask him "where's the party?"  My sister is someone who is never married but would like to be.  A lot of her relationships crash and burn.  I said to her, got to watch the language.  Some guys interpret that party thing with "let's have sex, now."  just in case she may have used that expression before.  She took no notice of the advice. 

Whether she is chronically single due to misinterpreted verbal and body language, one will never know since she is not introspective enough to change her behavior and see if she notices a difference.

But I do try to balance proffered advice and opinion with the personal results that I get.  And then do my best to tune out bad advice.

[Wilderhearts]

I think like most of you have also identified, I've learned that how people respond to my asserting boundaries has more to do with them - specifically their self-esteem.  Some people absolutely freak out when someone tells them (no matter how gently & firmly) "that was unacceptable."  That's when my friend unfortunately relied on invalidation, blame-shifting and projection to evade accountability. 

I think that's just something humans do, when they don't have the self-esteem to recognize the gravity of the harm they've caused.  They can't separate their conception of themselves (or how they fear others perceive them as a whole person) from their actions.  It's just a defence that develops in place of healthy skills.  I think these are the people that there's no point in expressing your most vulnerable emotions to - like NotRight was saying, to protect ourselves.  They trouble is, even trusted friends who are good people may not have the self-esteem to be accountable.

Yes, TreesGrow, she showed me who she was, and I've believed her.  I'll no longer address her unacceptable behaviours directly, and I'll no longer go on adventures with her.  Those are boundaries I can implement independently.  Maybe it's more extreme than is necessary, but as I learn to trust my ability to respect my own boundaries I'll probably get better at implementing many subtle boundaries, instead of one big one.

I think what you said about the pendulum swinging applies to my life so much, SandsorS@d, like what I mentioned above.  I've definitely learned when to let things go - ironically, in the situation I was talking about, I had planned to not say anything and just not give the friend the opportunity to make the same mistakes.  Another friend encouraged me to, because my friend obviously didn't know the basics about safety in our situation.

I do think I had good boundaries in response - I got so angry and refused to accept blame for anything that I hadn't done myself.   Come to think of it, I was more assertive in the situations that led up to this (because I was in my element and confident), and that was met with resistance and weird little power struggles too, like you said happens, NotRight.

I have a hard time with letting relationships fall away though.  If I haven't decided 100% to go NC and the friendship fades...I'm still stuck on if that person is still blaming/angry at me.  Cue abandonment issues!  TreeGrows was saying let others have their opinions of you, but I guess I need to remember in situations where someone is invalidating me, someone's opinion of me is really more a reflection of them.  And people I'm not invested in...I'm perfectly fine with them thinking what they want.

StayWithMe, I think there's a big difference between disagreeing with and invalidating someone, although some people (esp. people with PDs) take anyone disagreeing with them as invalidation, but that's another issue entirely. 

Ok.  So. Learning to not take things personally is a big part of self-validation, it seems.  Thanks for the dialogue, everyone.