[p123]

Think of it this way....why are his feelings more important that yours, your wife's or your kids?

Took me years to realise but they're not. Now OK I know I need to change but I try not to upset him if I can but dont put him first

[FlowerPot]

Oh Xmas is so stressful - there are hordes of people who feel they have to visit family or have family over and they simply do not want to do it! Usually one person ends up keeping the peace for everyone and all the advertising shows happy families which just makes it worse.
Love to you all xx

[p123]

Thanks all - yes I know I need to be tougher and not give is so much.
Its just easier to lie and not upset him at the moment. I just don't have the strength for the inevitable fight.

Yes I understand what you're all saying. If I said even ONE of those things to him he would escalate it to fight against it. Whatever it takes he would do it. If I EVER told him tough and left the house- he'd get himself admitted to hospital next day.

Yes I know maybe its time to fight through this.....

Your father is abusive and is acting like a bully.  He's gotten away with it because he's not gotten much resistance.  Yes, the "go-along-to-get-along" strategy is an easy path, but the problem with that is nothing ever changes.   

There is no "convenient" time to face this reality.  It's difficult.  Confronting him with boundaries will very likely result in conflict, but you don't have to be a part of his raging or tantrums.  Let him have those by himself. 

What do you do with a child that's pitching a tantrum?  Give in?  Let him have his way?  That teaches him that anytime he wants something, he just raises a ruckus and he'll get what he wants.  It's an intimidation tactic and it prompts the F in FOG.  Your dad is that child that wants to instill fear in those around him.  It appears he's pretty adept at that game. 

Time to provide consequences for that abusive and bullying behavior.  The Toolbox on this website is a great place to start with "what to do" and "what not to do".  And we're here for you, to help you come through that FOG.   

Oh yes he is a bully. As hes got older I've realised that.

I guess when he was younger he didn't "need" others as much but I can see the signs there. As hes got older and decided he "needs" things then hes shown his true colours.

And hes VERY VERY good at getting what he wants. He seems to have spent a lifetime getting others to do things for him.

Also, the way he looks at life, his values etc I now realise are completely different to mine. Yet, in his head, his values rule - and everyone has to think the same. His ideas on money, relationships,kids etc. (Just think of the most racist, homophobic, sexist, and small minded person you can think of and you'd be close to my Dad). He honestly thinks everyone else is crazy and hes right.

The number of times hes called me "mad" or "amazed I did this" or "cant believe you did this" for things that are perfectly normal.

[p123]

Ah I blew it tonight. See my other post about tonights visit.

As I was leaving he dropped in "so when is your wife going to phone to wish me happy birthday?" I was just in shock after all hes done. Another attempt to show everyone he has the power.

I SHOULD have told him shes not going to ring you because she can't stand you any more, and she has a very good point. And don't you remember how badly you've treated us over the last few years? BUT I didn't

Still can't get over that line of telling him the truth and being blunt and upsetting him unnecessarily. I fear this is going to blow up soon though - hes getting worse.

[WomanInterrupted]

I caught what happened in your other thread.  If he brings it up again, and says she didn't call, say only, "That's right.  She's busy." - and change the subject.   

You know why he acts like everything is just hunky-dory?  Because in his mind, he's done *nothing wrong.*  He sees himself as Mr. Wonderful, and he just "speaks his mind" - and justifies it  by being an old man, who has earned the right. 

You're never going to be able to reason with him - and yes, he IS going to get worse - and keep getting worse until he's got you over there, 24/7, playing nursemaid. 

If you haven't read the book, "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend, it might be time to treat yourself to a prezzie.  Amazon has it in various formats, and you'll find out that boundaries are a normal, natural part of everyday life - you weren't taught that lesson, because your father has NO boundaries.

He just wants what he wants when he wants it - but you have the *ability* to use the normal, natural and reasonable boundary, "I can't do that.  It'll have to wait until next week, or you can figure out something else." 

You are *not* being mean to your dad by using boundaries.  You use them in polite society, every day - and you use them at home, too, with your FOC.  Even something as simple as saying, "No hon, I really don't feel like going out tonight..." is a *boundary.* 

And chances are your wife is very understanding, and doesn't act like your dad.  (Or you wouldn't be married to her!) 

Your dad is going to treat boundaries like the worst thing on the face of the earth - that's okay.  Let him, but make sure you *stick to your boundaries.*  If you say no to doing something, or going somewhere, make sure that is set in stone - and if he winds up in the hospital as a way to try to *punish you*, don't visit.   

He doesn't get *rewarded* for bad behavior, and he can sit in the hospital, by himself, until he takes a cab home.  (Do NOT pick him up.  He got there?  He can find his own way home.) 

Once you read  up on boundaries, I think it will might make it easier to put your *needs and wants* FIRST - there's nothing wrong with that and you *are* the star of your own show - not a bit-player in your dad's.

Your dad will probably start pushing back - don't give in.  If you said, "I can't come over this week..." and he's whining about food, turn it around on him:  "Dad. I'm not coming this week - but if you were in Assisted Living, this wouldn't even be an issue.  You'd have 3 square meals a day." 

If you're lucky, he'll hang up on you and give you the Silent Treat - and have your brother buy his groceries. 

Any time he starts whining, try to bring Assisted Living into the conversation.

His knees?  "At Assisted Living, they have doctors on the staff.  You wouldn't even have to wait that long to see one." 

His trouble getting around?  "In Assisted Living, they have all sorts of mobility devices, and people to help you." 

You get the idea - and yes, he'll hate it, but he can't stay at his, indefinitely, without more help than you alone can provide - but you're the only person he'll accept help from, while chastising you that your brother is FAR too busy, holding up the bar. 

You can't do the work of a team and you can't *cover* for your dad.  It's in your best interest - and your dad's - to be as hands-off as possible, letting your dad fail, so outsiders can intervene on his behalf and get him to a *safe* environment. 

And that means visiting as little as possible, being useless, being "busy" - and hanging up once he starts raging or getting angry.  You're not doing any of this to make him angry - his anger is a natural result of a lifetime spent getting what he wants, and having others do for him.

You're no longer the frightened child, afraid of daddy's wrath as he towers over you, while you cower in a corner.  You're an *adult* - and probably taller than him.  The all-powerful ADULT is now nothing more than an *old man* and can't do anything to you but use nasty, angry words. 

He can't ground you.  He can't take your car keys.  He can't send you to bed without supper.  He can't take your allowance, confiscate your phone or revoke your computer or TV privileges!  There is *nothing* he can do but YELL and try to make you feel bad.

Your dad feels his control over you may be slipping - be prepared for him try just about anything, to see if it sticks - including being fake-nice about your wife, and asking if she's going to call him.  It's gaslighting, pure and simple, but he'll try just about anything, because he's getting desperate and wants things the way they were. 

Stick to YOUR boundaries in all situations.  Think about what you *want* to do - not what you *could* do, but if you really WANT to help him out, or run errands, or go shopping, or visit him.

It's okay to say, "I don't want to do anything for him!"   

That's a BOUNDARY.  And you can make it stick by telling him no, you can't, he'll have to figure out something else. 

You CAN do this, P123.   

Yeah, he'll be all butthurt (overly annoyed or bothered by a perceived insult; needlessly offended - sorry for the undefined Americanism!  ), but that is NOT your problem. 

 

[Andeza]

Boundaries, yup, I'll second that.

Imagine you have a neighbor, and this neighbor is just awful about stomping all through your garden because you've got no fence. All times of the day, there he is stepping on the flowers! You talk to him, but the behavior doesn't change.

So you build a nice wall for your garden. And there he is on the other side screaming "hey mate! This wall's in my way! Tear it down will you?" but you just sit in your garden, enjoying the flowers and watching your children play. After a while, you don't even hear him anymore because the garden is just so peaceful now.

We've got a saying where I'm from. Good fences make good neighbors. Your boundaries will allow you to get your life back, because your dad is under the impression that he owns you. But, just like the angry neighbor, he's not going to like it. But you do this for yourself, for your family.

How will you feel in ten years if you look back and all you remember of your children's growing up years is how much of a pain your dad was? Will you associate every vacation, every holiday, every birthday not worth the joy of the occasion but rather with the hassle of your dad?

You already dread Christmas because of him. If you don't take it back, no one will do it for you, and he certainly won't. I highly advise you not to let him ruin another holiday or special occasion. You can't get this time with your family back, once it's gone that's it.

[p123]

I caught what happened in your other thread.  If he brings it up again, and says she didn't call, say only, "That's right.  She's busy." - and change the subject.   

You know why he acts like everything is just hunky-dory?  Because in his mind, he's done *nothing wrong.*  He sees himself as Mr. Wonderful, and he just "speaks his mind" - and justifies it  by being an old man, who has earned the right. 

You're never going to be able to reason with him - and yes, he IS going to get worse - and keep getting worse until he's got you over there, 24/7, playing nursemaid. 

If you haven't read the book, "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend, it might be time to treat yourself to a prezzie.  Amazon has it in various formats, and you'll find out that boundaries are a normal, natural part of everyday life - you weren't taught that lesson, because your father has NO boundaries.

He just wants what he wants when he wants it - but you have the *ability* to use the normal, natural and reasonable boundary, "I can't do that.  It'll have to wait until next week, or you can figure out something else." 

You are *not* being mean to your dad by using boundaries.  You use them in polite society, every day - and you use them at home, too, with your FOC.  Even something as simple as saying, "No hon, I really don't feel like going out tonight..." is a *boundary.* 

And chances are your wife is very understanding, and doesn't act like your dad.  (Or you wouldn't be married to her!) 

Your dad is going to treat boundaries like the worst thing on the face of the earth - that's okay.  Let him, but make sure you *stick to your boundaries.*  If you say no to doing something, or going somewhere, make sure that is set in stone - and if he winds up in the hospital as a way to try to *punish you*, don't visit.   

He doesn't get *rewarded* for bad behavior, and he can sit in the hospital, by himself, until he takes a cab home.  (Do NOT pick him up.  He got there?  He can find his own way home.) 

Once you read  up on boundaries, I think it will might make it easier to put your *needs and wants* FIRST - there's nothing wrong with that and you *are* the star of your own show - not a bit-player in your dad's.

Your dad will probably start pushing back - don't give in.  If you said, "I can't come over this week..." and he's whining about food, turn it around on him:  "Dad. I'm not coming this week - but if you were in Assisted Living, this wouldn't even be an issue.  You'd have 3 square meals a day." 

If you're lucky, he'll hang up on you and give you the Silent Treat - and have your brother buy his groceries. 

Any time he starts whining, try to bring Assisted Living into the conversation.

His knees?  "At Assisted Living, they have doctors on the staff.  You wouldn't even have to wait that long to see one." 

His trouble getting around?  "In Assisted Living, they have all sorts of mobility devices, and people to help you." 

You get the idea - and yes, he'll hate it, but he can't stay at his, indefinitely, without more help than you alone can provide - but you're the only person he'll accept help from, while chastising you that your brother is FAR too busy, holding up the bar. 

You can't do the work of a team and you can't *cover* for your dad.  It's in your best interest - and your dad's - to be as hands-off as possible, letting your dad fail, so outsiders can intervene on his behalf and get him to a *safe* environment. 

And that means visiting as little as possible, being useless, being "busy" - and hanging up once he starts raging or getting angry.  You're not doing any of this to make him angry - his anger is a natural result of a lifetime spent getting what he wants, and having others do for him.

You're no longer the frightened child, afraid of daddy's wrath as he towers over you, while you cower in a corner.  You're an *adult* - and probably taller than him.  The all-powerful ADULT is now nothing more than an *old man* and can't do anything to you but use nasty, angry words. 

He can't ground you.  He can't take your car keys.  He can't send you to bed without supper.  He can't take your allowance, confiscate your phone or revoke your computer or TV privileges!  There is *nothing* he can do but YELL and try to make you feel bad.

Your dad feels his control over you may be slipping - be prepared for him try just about anything, to see if it sticks - including being fake-nice about your wife, and asking if she's going to call him.  It's gaslighting, pure and simple, but he'll try just about anything, because he's getting desperate and wants things the way they were. 

Stick to YOUR boundaries in all situations.  Think about what you *want* to do - not what you *could* do, but if you really WANT to help him out, or run errands, or go shopping, or visit him.

It's okay to say, "I don't want to do anything for him!"   

That's a BOUNDARY.  And you can make it stick by telling him no, you can't, he'll have to figure out something else. 

You CAN do this, P123.   

Yeah, he'll be all butthurt (overly annoyed or bothered by a perceived insult; needlessly offended - sorry for the undefined Americanism!  ), but that is NOT your problem. 

 

Thanks once again WI. I hope I'm getting there.....
One thing I am impressed with is his dedication to get what he wants. Very impressive in the way he sticks to his task, tries something else to get the result.

One thing  - he NEVER argues with me. Its impossible to start an argument with him too. Hes clever. He NEVER puts the phone down or gives me the silent treatment. I dream of the day I can go without speaking for a period of time.

I guess it doesnt work for him. If hes not speaking he can't get what he wants....

Andez - No hes not coming xmas day. I had such a nice day last year - the first for a long time without him. Not happening. Ever. Can guarantee he'll say "oh well I'll be all alone xmas day then". Not working - Im going to ignore it.

p.s. WI - thats my plan for today. Slip the term BUTTHURT into a conversation here at work lol. I like the phrase a lot :-) (Like I said, it could be mistrued here in the uk I think)

[Hazy111]

"In healthy families parents take responsibility for their childrens emotional health. In narcissistic families its the children who are responsible for their parents emotional health"

You were programmed very early on . But you are now an adult . Good luck with whatever you attempt. But remember he cant/wont change.

[p123]

"In healthy families parents take responsibility for their childrens emotional health. In narcissistic families its the children who are responsible for their parents emotional health"

You were programmed very early on . But you are now an adult . Good luck with whatever you attempt. But remember he cant/wont change.

Yeh rings true... Wish me luck!

[p123]

Well, Dad is still Butthurt!

You may have seen my other thread about him moaning my wife didn't phone him on his birthday and how he said "I only see her once a year on xmas day!".

This is not going to be good. I'm not inviting him xmas day AT ALL. Im telling him wife is working....

I plan to invite him Boxing Day but hope he'll agree to go somewhere for lunch like a restaurant. Wife won't be there anyway on Boxing Day - she may well be working, even if shes not, she plans to go out shopping with her mum to avoid him. Fair enough.

Wish me luck!

[SunnyMeadow]

Perhaps your brother could have your dad at his house all Christmas day! Your dad has plenty of time between now and then to use the same tactic of constantly mentioning the day to brother so he gets an invitation. 

Setting boundaries is very difficult. We've been used to going along with them so they don't get mad at us. Start small but stay firm. It's sort of like dealing with toddler children. These personality disordered adults want what they want, just like children do.

I never miss the opportunity to mention to my mom that I've started new holiday traditions now that my kids are grown. Gone are the days of the same old thing. She isn't coming to my house and park herself on my sofa expecting to be waited on, then cry and sniffle when people don't pay her enough attention. I'm enforcing these changes to her dismay, we aren't going back to how it was. Now, I may see her for coffee or lunch before the holiday but she won't be coming over anymore. She burned that bridge, sad for her but that's how it goes.

I've lost the tv commercial image of the large happy family gathering around the dining room table. I tried that for over 25 years and my mom turned every gathering into something toxic with her whining and drama. I'm glad to be done with it. She doesn't know I still have those gatherings but they are much smaller and only include my important people who are interested in happy, loving relationships. Such a relief and makes preparing for a holiday joyful again! I used to dread it knowing how my mom would turn it to drama and stress. I tried so hard to make all the holidays festive for my kids by including her and others. Turns out they remember the drama and don't think their grandma liked them very much. How's that for the complete opposite of what I was trying to achieve? 

By reading the stories others share here and soaking up all the replies you've received, hopefully you might find it a bit easier to set boundaries.  Remember all of us cheering you on to protect yourself and protect your family. Your dad will move on to someone else once you start setting boundaries and saying no.

[p123]

Perhaps your brother could have your dad at his house all Christmas day! Your dad has plenty of time between now and then to use the same tactic of constantly mentioning the day to brother so he gets an invitation. 

Setting boundaries is very difficult. We've been used to going along with them so they don't get mad at us. Start small but stay firm. It's sort of like dealing with toddler children. These personality disordered adults want what they want, just like children do.

I never miss the opportunity to mention to my mom that I've started new holiday traditions now that my kids are grown. Gone are the days of the same old thing. She isn't coming to my house and park herself on my sofa expecting to be waited on, then cry and sniffle when people don't pay her enough attention. I'm enforcing these changes to her dismay, we aren't going back to how it was. Now, I may see her for coffee or lunch before the holiday but she won't be coming over anymore. She burned that bridge, sad for her but that's how it goes.

I've lost the tv commercial image of the large happy family gathering around the dining room table. I tried that for over 25 years and my mom turned every gathering into something toxic with her whining and drama. I'm glad to be done with it. She doesn't know I still have those gatherings but they are much smaller and only include my important people who are interested in happy, loving relationships. Such a relief and makes preparing for a holiday joyful again! I used to dread it knowing how my mom would turn it to drama and stress. I tried so hard to make all the holidays festive for my kids by including her and others. Turns out they remember the drama and don't think their grandma liked them very much. How's that for the complete opposite of what I was trying to achieve? 

By reading the stories others share here and soaking up all the replies you've received, hopefully you might find it a bit easier to set boundaries.  Remember all of us cheering you on to protect yourself and protect your family. Your dad will move on to someone else once you start setting boundaries and saying no.

Yes last year he went to my brothers - and moaned about it. He OK with me telling him I couldnt do xmas day - I guess he knew brother was lined up.

But then he moaned that brother was planning to go to the pub for an hour (he'd arranged with friends) and Dad did not want to go. His reason - in his opinion, its wrong to go to the pub on xmas day.... Seriously just because you don't want to go.

I kept out of it and had a great xmas day. No driving around half the day, then when home worrying about what hes going to say or do.

[p123]

Hes started now "So what time are you picking me up xmas day?" And "Its only fair I come to you this year since I went to your brothers last year".

Much as I'm tempted to say "Look I'm not doing it any more, after the way you've behaved previous years, and how you've behaved recently" but I probably won't. Yes I know. Easier to use my wifes work shifts as an excuse (shes a nurse).

Can guarantee hes not going to like it. And she'll get the blame too which is wearing pretty thin to be honest. Shes not the most forgiving but I'd say its 99% his fault here and, after all, its her FIL, she is not obliged to like him or even have him in her life after all.

Thing is I don't think he even enjoys coming to us on xmas day (or even boxing day) - its hectic. I think he only does it because part of him says that, one of his sons "should" have him there xmas day. And of course, he likes that hes made to feel more important than anyone else.

Last year he came Boxing Day, my wife WAS working that day, my daugher was out with her gran, my teenage son was there but hey teenager! I drove 20 odd miles to collect him, 20 miles back home, we ate food just the two of us, sat around for an hour, then I repeated the journey. Pointless.

I'm going to invite him Boxing Day to a local restaurant but I'm not confident. That won't pass the test as "invited over for xmas by his son".

[Pepin]

She's not the most forgiving but I'd say its 99% his fault here and, after all, its her FIL, she is not obliged to like him or even have him in her life after all.

Thing is I don't think he even enjoys coming to us on xmas day (or even boxing day) - its hectic. I think he only does it because part of him says that, one of his sons "should" have him there xmas day. And of course, he likes that hes made to feel more important than anyone else.

The first part...I wish my DH would see how I feel about PDmil through your eyes.  Your wife is incredibly lucky to be able to decide how her FIL should be included in her life.

And the second part...same dynamic with PDmil.  It is a very robotic behavior.   The Holidays seem to be filled with all sorts of "shoulds" that have been made up over the years that people believe "should" be enforced.  I find it ridiculous and I would personally like to sue Hallmark. 

PDs don't care about Holidays; they only care about being present and fussed over = attention.  PDs have no idea how to celebrate Holidays.

In the past, when PDmil has been unable to celebrate with us and offloaded to DH's sister, PDmil pouts or refuses to attend.  Yes, skips being with her own daughter...because she doesn't like her daughter's inlaws and because DH's sister doesn't spend her whole time chatting with her mother!  There are other people at the Holiday invite....our family doesn't do big gatherings and that is what PDmil likes.  But 3 out of the 4 of us don't like her being there.  DH just doesn't get it.   he's like: but, she shouldn't be alone that day!  The thing is though that when we comes over to our house, the three of us that don't want her there and feel isolated because PDmil hogs DH all to herself.  He just doesn't get it.

[p123]

She's not the most forgiving but I'd say its 99% his fault here and, after all, its her FIL, she is not obliged to like him or even have him in her life after all.

Thing is I don't think he even enjoys coming to us on xmas day (or even boxing day) - its hectic. I think he only does it because part of him says that, one of his sons "should" have him there xmas day. And of course, he likes that hes made to feel more important than anyone else.

The first part...I wish my DH would see how I feel about PDmil through your eyes.  Your wife is incredibly lucky to be able to decide how her FIL should be included in her life.

And the second part...same dynamic with PDmil.  It is a very robotic behavior.   The Holidays seem to be filled with all sorts of "shoulds" that have been made up over the years that people believe "should" be enforced.  I find it ridiculous and I would personally like to sue Hallmark. 

PDs don't care about Holidays; they only care about being present and fussed over = attention.  PDs have no idea how to celebrate Holidays.

In the past, when PDmil has been unable to celebrate with us and offloaded to DH's sister, PDmil pouts or refuses to attend.  Yes, skips being with her own daughter...because she doesn't like her daughter's inlaws and because DH's sister doesn't spend her whole time chatting with her mother!  There are other people at the Holiday invite....our family doesn't do big gatherings and that is what PDmil likes.  But 3 out of the 4 of us don't like her being there.  DH just doesn't get it.   he's like: but, she shouldn't be alone that day!  The thing is though that when we comes over to our house, the three of us that don't want her there and feel isolated because PDmil hogs DH all to herself.  He just doesn't get it.

Took me years though. I used to think about my wife "why can't you just put up with him for just one day". Then he got worse and worse.
My MIL (wife's mother) can be annoying too and shes had her moments. BUT it finally sunk in that Dad is in a different league.

So now I just think, hes my Dad, to a certain extent, unless I go NC, I've got to deal with him. My wife has no such obligation at all.

Last year, plan was he was going to come Boxing Day, wife was going to be there for a little while and then she planned to go out. Fair enough. BUT during the year, he treated her so badly she didnt want to see him and that was fine by me. So she didnt see him at all - and he proved it all by moaning and moaning she'd not bothered to stay to see him.

This year, if he comes boxing day, my wife is REALLY working. He won't like that I know now. I never understood though - she has no real relationship with him - hes just my Dad and shes polite and thats it. Always been like that. So why on earth he decides that she should be around I don't know....

Oh yes I'll get the "all on my own over xmas" blah blah blah. Woe is me. I have an answer "Its just one day, Dad". He was in hospital one year over xmas. He was happy about this strangely. He decreed that everyone had to visit him at 9am and stay the entire morning.

At the time, I lived 35 miles from the hospital, my son was probably about 5 or 6. So I said, look, I won't be there the morning, son will be opening his presents etc so theres no way I can be there at 9am. His answer "Well, he'll have to understand, won't he?" (Dad hes 5!) and anyway "there'll be other xmases and, after all, its just one day".

And his favourite line in the whole world that I get every week at least once (in response to me telling him that NO I wont cancel anything, let anyone else down etc is :-

"THEY'LL HAVE TO UNDERSTAND"

[Adrianna]

My father was in hospital for Christmas a few years ago. He wanted us to postpone everything until he got out, then told me off on the phone when I refused. Wanted us to postpone Christmas for him!

If I remember correctly, he didn’t get a visit from us that day. 

I had a pd coworker whose mother had died that year and said if we put up any Christmas decorations in the office, it would be disrespectful. So she wanted us to not enjoy Christmas because her mother had died several months before and if she wasn’t going to enjoy Christmas, then neither should we.

My own mother died on Christmas Day. An Unpd friend had no real understanding of why that day was hard for me. Or for anyone. He didn’t get the whole anniversary of death thing. Of course he lacked empathy. At the two year mark, he basically told me to stop dwelling on it. It’s been two years. We aren’t friends now. I really only brought her up at that time of year because it was rough for me. He had no compassion or understanding of that. It was bizarre and a real lesson as to how the pd mind works. Without empathy, you’ll never get emotional support from them, ever.

Christmas is a hard time for a lot of people anyway but mix the pd stuff in and it’s way worse.

[p123]

My father was in hospital for Christmas a few years ago. He wanted us to postpone everything until he got out, then told me off on the phone when I refused. Wanted us to postpone Christmas for him!

If I remember correctly, he didn’t get a visit from us that day. 

I had a pd coworker whose mother had died that year and said if we put up any Christmas decorations in the office, it would be disrespectful. So she wanted us to not enjoy Christmas because her mother had died several months before and if she wasn’t going to enjoy Christmas, then neither should we.

My own mother died on Christmas Day. An Unpd friend had no real understanding of why that day was hard for me. Or for anyone. He didn’t get the whole anniversary of death thing. Of course he lacked empathy. At the two year mark, he basically told me to stop dwelling on it. It’s been two years. We aren’t friends now. I really only brought her up at that time of year because it was rough for me. He had no compassion or understanding of that. It was bizarre and a real lesson as to how the pd mind works. Without empathy, you’ll never get emotional support from them, ever.

Christmas is a hard time for a lot of people anyway but mix the pd stuff in and it’s way worse.

WOW can imagine my dad doing that too....

The coworker thing is nuts too. How on earth can they expect everyone else to do that just because of their situation? Im guessing no-one else in the office knew her mother personally either?

[Pepin]

I never understood though - she has no real relationship with him - hes just my Dad and shes polite and thats it. Always been like that. So why on earth he decides that she should be around I don't know....

This brings me to tears and has been the most frustrating aspect of having PDmil in my life.  I have always been polite about her and have given DH his space to be with her -- yet I myself have no real relationship with her nor a desire to have one based on her behavior.

The thing is though is that DH thinks I should have a relationship with her.  He also thinks that our teens should have a relationship with her.  Because we don't and are not interested, he gets ruffled and round goes that cycle of resentment.  If he could just step back and let everything be -- we would be in a much better pace.  He wants us to see what he sees and it is just not possible.  Our teens and I were not there when PDmil was a younger woman; we are not her children nor were we parented by her.  She did not raise us.  We only know her for who she is today.  It is kind of difficult to imagine that she be any other way -- and I worry that DH is only viewing his mother through the eyes of a child. 

I can't stand it when he throws mini tantrums over our lack of relationship with her.

Yes, she is part of the family but why does she have to be so important compared to everyone else -- is the thing I just don't get.  She is the oldest in the family at the moment and a widow.  Does that mean that she has to be on a pedestal?  I am not sure that she feels that she is entitled to this patronizing but for whatever reason, DH sure thinks she does.  I just cannot figure out why he feels so strongly about the way she needs to be dealt with.  None of the other spouses of DH's siblings and their families bow down to PDmil either...yet our teens and I are required?  My husband is going to hit a wall when his mother passes... 

[Adrianna]

My father was in hospital for Christmas a few years ago. He wanted us to postpone everything until he got out, then told me off on the phone when I refused. Wanted us to postpone Christmas for him!

If I remember correctly, he didn’t get a visit from us that day. 

I had a pd coworker whose mother had died that year and said if we put up any Christmas decorations in the office, it would be disrespectful. So she wanted us to not enjoy Christmas because her mother had died several months before and if she wasn’t going to enjoy Christmas, then neither should we.

My own mother died on Christmas Day. An Unpd friend had no real understanding of why that day was hard for me. Or for anyone. He didn’t get the whole anniversary of death thing. Of course he lacked empathy. At the two year mark, he basically told me to stop dwelling on it. It’s been two years. We aren’t friends now. I really only brought her up at that time of year because it was rough for me. He had no compassion or understanding of that. It was bizarre and a real lesson as to how the pd mind works. Without empathy, you’ll never get emotional support from them, ever.

Christmas is a hard time for a lot of people anyway but mix the pd stuff in and it’s way worse.

WOW can imagine my dad doing that too....

The coworker thing is nuts too. How on earth can they expect everyone else to do that just because of their situation? Im guessing no-one else in the office knew her mother personally either?

None of us in the office knew her mother. She was my first education about narcissism. She admitted to being selfish, we all had to walk on eggshells, and being around her was draining. Although I had it in my own family, it took this woman to open my eyes to the disorder.

[Adrianna]

The reason why the pd parent wants the spouse of their child involved all comes down to one thing: possible source of narcissistic supply - aka attention.

If you’re not able to provide it, they want a backup. They ALWAYS want a backup supply.

Nana told me once I’m never allowed to divorce my husband because then she can’t get him to do things for her. He does almost nothing for her now. She’s always asking me about him, is he working, is he home today. It’s truly bizarre. She has more of an interest in him than me (she used to show somewhat of an interest in me but not anymore) but I know it’s her innate need to keep backup servants that’s driving it. She sadly has no real concern for him either.

It’s all about getting their needs met.