[Pepin]

The reason why the pd parent wants the spouse of their child involved all comes down to one thing: possible source of narcissistic supply - aka attention.

If you’re not able to provide it, they want a backup. They ALWAYS want a backup supply.

Wow, this is so true.  They just move down the supply chain, don't they?  At first it was me, as DH's spouse.  Since I have gone gray rock, PDmil moved onto our kids.  The kids (now teens) have been on to her for some time and don't want to play her dumb games.

So what does PDmil do then?  She goes back to the top and focuses on DH.  She knows that if she can get DH under her thumb, she can keep him away from his wife and children.   

[Adrianna]

The reason why the pd parent wants the spouse of their child involved all comes down to one thing: possible source of narcissistic supply - aka attention.

If you’re not able to provide it, they want a backup. They ALWAYS want a backup supply.

Wow, this is so true.  They just move down the supply chain, don't they?  At first it was me, as DH's spouse.  Since I have gone gray rock, PDmil moved onto our kids.  The kids (now teens) have been on to her for some time and don't want to play her dumb games.

So what does PDmil do then?  She goes back to the top and focuses on DH.  She knows that if she can get DH under her thumb, she can keep him away from his wife and children.   

Oh yes, it’s ALL about attention. I’ve studied narcissism extensively. Attention to them is like fuel. They need it to survive. It’s food. We are food to them. Without it they wither. If nana isn’t getting enough attention, she literally falls into narcissistic collapse. Can’t get dressed, moving is an effort, staying in bed, severe depression, whining, breathing or speaking is a dramatic effort. It’s truly something to witness.

In romantic relationships, it’s why they more often than not cheat. They see nothing wrong with two partners. Two sources of supply are better than one. It’s why they move on from a partner with such ease (aka discarding). They usually have another lined up.  A woman married to a narcissist is shocked that he moves on with such ease, but once you understand the disorder, you see she was nothing but a source of fuel to him, a tool to get attention.

They don’t see us as people. We are things to them. Does someone miss their toaster when they replace it? No. They are focused on the new shiny toaster which is performing as it should. The old toaster is forgotten. We are like an appliance to them. Our function as this appliance is to provide attention. That’s it.

[p123]

The reason why the pd parent wants the spouse of their child involved all comes down to one thing: possible source of narcissistic supply - aka attention.

If you’re not able to provide it, they want a backup. They ALWAYS want a backup supply.

Nana told me once I’m never allowed to divorce my husband because then she can’t get him to do things for her. He does almost nothing for her now. She’s always asking me about him, is he working, is he home today. It’s truly bizarre. She has more of an interest in him than me (she used to show somewhat of an interest in me but not anymore) but I know it’s her innate need to keep backup servants that’s driving it. She sadly has no real concern for him either.

It’s all about getting their needs met.

OMG dad does this!!!! Im sure its because he wants to know if shes really busy or not.....

He also keeps asking for me wifes mobile no. Dont need it. But like you said its his backup.....
I dread to think what she'd say to him if he phoned her though. #worldwar3.

[p123]

The reason why the pd parent wants the spouse of their child involved all comes down to one thing: possible source of narcissistic supply - aka attention.

If you’re not able to provide it, they want a backup. They ALWAYS want a backup supply.

I see this with Dad. He gets into a right state if things dont go his way. Its scary to see sometimes.

Wow, this is so true.  They just move down the supply chain, don't they?  At first it was me, as DH's spouse.  Since I have gone gray rock, PDmil moved onto our kids.  The kids (now teens) have been on to her for some time and don't want to play her dumb games.

So what does PDmil do then?  She goes back to the top and focuses on DH.  She knows that if she can get DH under her thumb, she can keep him away from his wife and children.   

Oh yes, it’s ALL about attention. I’ve studied narcissism extensively. Attention to them is like fuel. They need it to survive. It’s food. We are food to them. Without it they wither. If nana isn’t getting enough attention, she literally falls into narcissistic collapse. Can’t get dressed, moving is an effort, staying in bed, severe depression, whining, breathing or speaking is a dramatic effort. It’s truly something to witness.

In romantic relationships, it’s why they more often than not cheat. They see nothing wrong with two partners. Two sources of supply are better than one. It’s why they move on from a partner with such ease (aka discarding). They usually have another lined up.  A woman married to a narcissist is shocked that he moves on with such ease, but once you understand the disorder, you see she was nothing but a source of fuel to him, a tool to get attention.

They don’t see us as people. We are things to them. Does someone miss their toaster when they replace it? No. They are focused on the new shiny toaster which is performing as it should. The old toaster is forgotten. We are like an appliance to them. Our function as this appliance is to provide attention. That’s it.

[nanotech]

I am that toaster! 

What a flipping  good analogy!

It’s exactly how my dad is with family and their spouses.

Exactly

[p123]

I am that toaster! 

What a flipping  good analogy!

It’s exactly how my dad is with family and their spouses.

Exactly

Funnily enough I've mentioned by brother in other threads..... Hes like that. Got three kids by two different partners. He seems to be with someone, have a kid, move on, forget about kid. Move on to next do the same. Hes just got married and done the same.

I bumped into one of his exs recently (hes got two kids with) and she said she'd moved locally, told him but he'd not bothered at all. BECAUSE hes just got married to someone else and has "moved on".

[Hazy111]

Taking this slightly off topic, but it prompted me. You hear about the proportion of divorced men who dont have anything to do or lose touch with their children from previous marriages, its staggering. Because,  they basically dont care enough about them or love them and thats because unfortunately........ they never really did.

And why is that?  Because they were really only objects to them, as they are ....... PD/Narcissistic.

I know if they remarry a Borderline female, that female more often than not is hostile to children from previous marriages , Ive witnessed this in my own family and work colleagues. So it can be very difficult. The husband is forced to choose between his new wife and his children. But who would get involved with a Borderline female in the first place?

Its my belief that PD is so much more common than is commonly accepted.

Sorry for taking this thread off topic , but its a subject that i keep coming back to.
 

[p123]

Taking this slightly off topic, but it prompted me. You hear about the proportion of divorced men who dont have anything to do or lose touch with their children from previous marriages, its staggering. Because,  they basically dont care enough about them or love them and thats because unfortunately........ they never really did.

And why is that?  Because they were really only objects to them, as they are ....... PD/Narcissistic.

I know if they remarry a Borderline female, that female more often than not is hostile to children from previous marriages , Ive witnessed this in my own family and work colleagues. So it can be very difficult. The husband is forced to choose between his new wife and his children. But who would get involved with a Borderline female in the first place?

Its my belief that PD is so much more common than is commonly accepted.

Sorry for taking this thread off topic , but its a subject that i keep coming back to.

Personally, I could NEVER do that. Forget about my kids even if the relationship did break down....

[p123]

OK. Its almost time for the Xmas day discussion. Need some help here.

I'm planning to say "Do you want to do something boxing day this year?"
Hes going to say "Whats wrong with xmas day? I'd rather not go to your brothers". (He moaned last year).

Now I'm trying not to get into explaining this apart from "wifes working". OK shes not. Yes I know I should really not make an excuse  and just say "not available".
He will want to know my EXACT plans - so he can pick holes and come up with suggestions like "can't you do this, drop kids here, collect me at this time" etc.

I also know he'll then say "can you sort it out with your brother then". In other words, you two decided amongst yourself how I'm going to be accomodated.
Not happening. Brother is a Flying money - Im not getting involved in arrangements with him.

Ulimately, I'm going to get "do it FOR ME". The ultimate guilt trip.

[Adrianna]

An open ended question like “do you want to do something on Boxing Day?” Is your first mistake. Don’t leave it up to him. It will end in circular arguments and frustration.

Tell him I’d like to take you out to lunch on Boxing Day at x restaurant. If you’d like to go, I’ll bring you. If not, I’ll be going with my family.

Simple.

And he can moan all he likes. Let him go to your brothers on Xmas. You should spend that day with your wife and kids without the misery he brings.

[Andeza]

Just remember, p123, complaining about something never killed anyone. And just because he wants to complain doesn't mean you have to sit there and listen to it. If he starts going off you can say "oh, got a client calling bye!" or if you're at his place "right, when you decide on boxing day, let me know, bye now!" and walk out. Normal people do these things! It's okay. 

[p123]

An open ended question like “do you want to do something on Boxing Day?” Is your first mistake. Don’t leave it up to him. It will end in circular arguments and frustration.

Tell him I’d like to take you out to lunch on Boxing Day at x restaurant. If you’d like to go, I’ll bring you. If not, I’ll be going with my family.

Simple.

And he can moan all he likes. Let him go to your brothers on Xmas. You should spend that day with your wife and kids without the misery he brings.

Oh xmas day is off the cards no matter what. My wife would kill me!

Boxing Day she is actually in work. Daugher will probably be out with her gran. Son (whos 16) well he doesnt speak anyway. Driving 30 mins to collect him, 30 mis back to my place, when theres no-one in my house anyway seems pointless. Of course, same trip back. All because I expect hes got an idea in his head that hes "got to visit my house over xmas". Thats what he gets like.

[WomanInterrupted]

Hazy wrote:

The husband is forced to choose between his new wife and his children. But who would get involved with a Borderline female in the first place?

Brief aside:  unNPD Ray got involved with unBPD Didi, and years later, they adopted me - it played out exactly as you described.  Ray always defended her and took her side, and the child was vilified.  It *always* played out that way - I have no memories of Ray defending me against her. 

UnNPD MIL (DH's mom) married unNPD SFIL, who had 3 kids.  She chose to sacrifice DH as the SG, to save her sorry hide.  She didn't care what happened to DH, as long as she was happy, safe, and her needs were met - and she always sided with the other kids against him, which is why, as a unit, *nobody on earth* will ever come between DH and me:  we're like a force of nature, knowing what it's like when nobody has your back. 

We always have each other's backs- especially now that the "in  sickness" part of the wedding vows seems to have come up. 

Back to the topic at hand  :

P123, don't give your father *choices* or *options* about the holidays, or anything else.  TELL him what's going on and if he doesn't like it, tough noogies! 

For example:  He says, "What time are you picking me up Christmas Day?" 

You reply, "Dad, we're both working.  I can maybe spare a few hours on Boxing Day, to take you for tea  (or a meal in HIS neighborhood), but that's it." 

Him:  "But I always come to your house on Christmas!  Can't you speak to your boss or tell him off?"      (Yes, I KNOW - you're your own boss!    Just go with it, okay - don't correct him!   )

You:  Dad, I just told you we're both working.  I can spare a few hours on Boxing Day, for tea, and that's it.  That's all I can do." 

Him:  FOOOOOOOOOOGHORN - and a whole bunch of crap about "trying harder". 

Ignore it and say, "Look.  I told you what I can do.  Boxing Day or nothing, Dad - that's it." 

If he tries to change your *boundary* (taking him out somewhere near his and making it coming to yours, continues to wheedle and complain about "trying harder" for Christmas, or just won't stop), reply, "Well, then we won't do anything.  I've gotta go.  Goodbye."   

If, for some reason, he starts up with his, "I'm sorry" nonsense, call it for what it is:  "Dad, you're obviously not sorry.  My decision stands.  Goodbye." 

ANY time he brings it up in the future, repeat yourself like a broken record, tell him the decision is FINAL and if he doesn't stop, you're hanging up - and yes, his, "I'm sorry" should be *addressed* with, "No, you're not" - or, "That's what you keep saying, but you never act it." - and the call or visit needs to be ended *by you.*   

Your father is going to *hate* this, but he's going to hate *any* boundary, where he's not in control, and not receiving the supply he craves.

You don't exist to be a supply!  You exist to live life to the fullest and hopefully enjoy the ride. 

Don't give your dad options - tell him what's what.  That, IME, was the easiest way to get a handle on both unBPD Didi and unNPD Ray.

Giving either of them choices would create nothing but problems and drama - so I took that ability out of their  hands. 

 

[illogical]

...If, for some reason, he starts up with his, "I'm sorry" nonsense, call it for what it is:  "Dad, you're obviously not sorry.  My decision stands.  Goodbye." 

ANY time he brings it up in the future, repeat yourself like a broken record, tell him the decision is FINAL and if he doesn't stop, you're hanging up - and yes, his, "I'm sorry" should be *addressed* with, "No, you're not" - or, "That's what you keep saying, but you never act it." - and the call or visit needs to be ended *by you.*   

Your father is going to *hate* this, but he's going to hate *any* boundary, where he's not in control, and not receiving the supply he craves.

Great advice from WI!

You telling your dad the way it's going to be, instead of giving him choices, gives you control over the situation.  Then, as WI suggested, you follow through on the boundary you've set-- because that is a boundary, telling him that you are only available on Boxing Day-- by not allowing him to question your decision.  I'm sure he will counter by playing The Victim and The Guilt Card, but ignore these and stick to your guns.

You might write out a little "script" and keep it by the phone, in case he catches you off guard and you freeze.  Also, I would memorize the "script" in case he starts in when you are over at his house, because it's going to be harder to state and stick to your boundary in person, rather than over the phone.  But the drill would be the same-- state your boundary-- "Boxing Day will work, but Xmas won't" then repeat, as WI says, like a broken record, that boundary.  Ignore his countermoves to FOG you, including his gratuitous "I'm sorry" or "I'm just so thoughtless". 

You are starting to see right through your dad's manipulation techniques.  So now you can be prepared for more of the same.  He will likely be very caught off guard by your assertiveness here, so just expect him to "pull out all the stops" to try to persuade you to change your mind.  And he may become "obsessed" with going to your house for Xmas, once you tell him that it's not going to work.  He may acquiesce shortly after a few attempts at FOG, then plan a "medical emergency" or manufacture some other "crisis" to try to get what he wants.  I would be prepared for these, and ignore them as well.

The reason your dad has gotten away with his bad behavior in the past, is because he is rarely challenged.  I think calling him out if he starts the faux "I'm sorry" routine is great advice!  Now that you are starting to emerge from the FOG, and clearly see his manipulative ways, you can state that boundary and ignore his tactics of using Obligation and Guilt to try to wrangle an invite for Xmas.

[illogical]

Here's another idea that might help you when setting that boundary--

When you are talking to your dad, either in person or on the phone, IMAGINE that he is someone else-- not your dad, but someone you hardly know.  Maybe try to picture him wearing different clothes, clothes that he would never wear.  Or picture him with facial hair (if he doesn't have any, or without it if he does).  This is an IMAGING EXERCISE that could help you emotionally detach from the situation while you are setting this boundary.

Other imaging techniques I have used--

*imagine you are way up high in the sky and you are looking down from a very tall building with binoculars trained on your dad
*imagine you are in an Observation Booth and you can see your dad through the glass window, but the window is one-way and he can't see you
*imagine you are wearing mail armour and whatever he says, whatever word "weapons" he uses, they can't penetrate that armour
*imagine you are inside a shark tank and you are swimming with the sharks, but they can't hurt you [this one from WI]
*imagine you are on a magic carpet and can summon the carpet to take you up, up and away at the first sign of danger

Fear often comes into play when you are setting boundaries with a parent, because they have the ability to push your emotional buttons.  You have been groomed or brainwashed by them to accept that "what they say goes"  and there is no ability on your part to fight back.  But these are false fears, brought on because their words-- sometimes even the sound of their voice-- reduces you to a child, to a time where you couldn't fight back, you were powerless against them.

But you are not a child now.  You are an adult, and your dad cannot do anything to you, outside of trying to manipulate you using these old and tired manipulative techniques that you now SEE THROUGH for what they are-- just that, manipulation, pure and simple.  So try some of the imaging techniques to "own your power" and not let him reduce you to a powerless child.

Wishing you good luck!  I know you can do this!!

[p123]

And so it starts.... Facebook message from brother (bugger thought I'd blocked him - my fault!), his wife has apparently booked a holiday over xmas so I'll have to have Dad on xmas day.

Probably not true. Many years I've had the "booking holiday" and it never happened. Wouldn't put it past them to pretend their away as well.

Oh well. Dads still not coming but it makes my task harder.

[nanotech]

Difficult for you this one isn’t it? I’m not sure yet what’s happening with my dad for Christmas.
I haven’t brought it up, and he hasn’t!
There’s an expectation that we will have to have him this year for Christmas lunch I think, 
But I don’t think it’s doable really.

He’s a long drive away, and he won’t let us pick him up and drop him home.

 He knows he can’t stay for eight hours plus if he can’t drive to us. He’s 87 and I don’t want him to drive the fast A roads to our home any more.

He has actually stopped driving in the dark now, so he wouldn’t take be able to return himself.

He won’t stay over,  as he only likes his own bed. At 87 this may well be fair enough.

I’m always pretty tired by Christmas Day 
(present wrapping, food prep etc ) and just want to relax and watch ( non PD) family open presents, eat and have fun, play with the grandkids, watch some TV then sleep!

  I’m over 60 now myself with depleted stamina levels to match.

Sigh. Ya reap what ya sow.....
Over the years, dad hasn’t cultivated close, healthy relationships with his grandchildren. The closeness isn’t there, and while they have a sense of duty, there’s an awkwardness and a feeling of distance.
He’s fine all year and every year, ignoring  them,  (unless he hears a snippet of bad news attached to them, then he wants chapter and verse on what happened), but come MAGICAL  Christmas Time he expects  nothing less than them all to be fighting over who is having him for Christmas dinner!
It’s really hard.
I hope you sort this so that your family of choice come first. 😉👍🏼

[p123]

Nanotech - oh hes NOT coming to ours for Xmas. I did it for years, drive 30 mins collect him, 30 mins back, then repeat afterwards.
He used to try and tell me what time to come "the kids can open their presents you don't need to be there".

He'd turn up, make inappropriate comments, upset my family. He'd make out he was ill and cause a scene. Xmas day was hell for me.
Two years ago he was awful. Pretended he couldn't walk, made comments to my wife, then when I got him home I got stuck there for hours because he said he was dying and needed an ambulance. Never again.

My wife would kill me. Shes put with him for years to be fair but he went too far.

Every year I got from brother "oh I might be away". He lives a mile away and got no kids (that he looks after). Last year he did go to brothers and xmas day was like a load off my shoulders. Obviously, my brother can see what hes like and is playing the old "holiday card" early.

[p123]

My override / top card for xmas when he kicks off is "Its just one day" and "There's always next year"

Number of times I've heard this from him when he expects me cancel something with my kids, and put him first. Taste of your own medicine here!

[lkdrymom]

That is perfect. Use the same words he uses on you.