Xmas is coming - my least favourite time of the year

[p123]

For years, every Xmas day I'd drive the 20+ miles to collect my Dad, he'd have lunch at our house, then I'd drive him home.

Every year it was hassle. He'd demand I be there at 9am to collect him - I'd say no I'll be there after the kids have opened their presents and he'd sulk about it. Pretty much the whole journey back would be criticism of how "the kids should understand".

He'd get there and be very rude. No manners at all. He'd make sure everyone knew HE WAS UNWELL. He'd stumble around the living room pretending he can't walk  (he can walk 1/2 a mile to shops normally). He'd pretend it was too dark and he couldnt see.

We'd have inappropriate stories, he'd criticise us and how much we spent on the kids. Both my wife and I would be looking at our watches and praying he'd say he wanted to go home. I'd end up driving around most of the day on Xmas day getting home at 6-7pm. I don't drink much bit, of course, no alcohol for me because I was driving - Dads attitude was "well you don't mind do you?" umm yeh thanks for giving me the choice.

It was, if I'm honest, a complete nightmare. How my wife put up with it I'll never know.

Two years ago he was twice as bad. He'd been ill so was in a mood. He was VERY rude to everyone, generally acted badly, and made out he was dying. Pretty much ruined everyones day. Worse still when I took him he started saying he felt like he wasnt going to last and he needed an ambulance. Stupidly, I spent hours talking him around. All the while my 5 year old is at home waiting for her Daddy to play with her. Wife was not amused.

So enough is enough. I told him no can do Xmas day last year. Wife is working, so we're not doing xmas dinner but you can come boxing day. He was not happy. Hard luck. As it was wife was working boxing day (shes a nurse) so she avoided him.

This year hes not having it that shes working AGAIN xmas day. Not that he has any idea how things work. Hes really started to kick off. As has brother whos moaning that he had him last year (forgetting I had him for probably 15 years before that!).

I cant subject my family to him. His behaviour is not just something you can put up with a few hours any more. Its that bad.

BUT of course, I dont want to tell him home truths that hes not welcome. He might deserve it but hes still my dad.

[illogical]

HI p123,

I think you can see the "train wreck" coming, so it's time to get off the tracks.

Just because you've always hosted your dad on Xmas doesn't mean you have to this year.  You are perfectly within your rights to reserve that day for your immediate family.  I would start by telling brother that under no circumstances is dad going to ruin your Christmas with your family this year.  It's up to him if he wants to host him on that day, but you aren't.   Period.

See what he says.  If he says he's not going to host, either, then there's little you can do about that.  But I would hold firm in my conviction that dad isn't coming to your house.  As far as an explanation to your dad, you don't have to elaborate.  "Not going to work you coming this year.  Wife doesn't know what her schedule will be like."  And then hold to that.  Repeat it fifty times if you have to, like a broken record.  Don't let your dad "guilt" you into hosting him. 

Your dad is not going to like any arrangements you make short of having him over so he can ruin your day.  So I wouldn't expect anything less than a tantrum.  Let him have his tantrum.  Better have it over the phone than at your house on Xmas. 

You could offer an alternative if you are so inclined, such as getting together on Boxing Day like you offered last year.  But as I said, he won't like it no matter what, so just expect that and stand your ground.

You might look at this situation like you are doing your dad a favor.  Not only is your family miserable when he attends this event, he is miserable, too-- or at least he claims to be.  So not hosting him is better for everyone.     My two cents.

[p123]

HI p123,

I think you can see the "train wreck" coming, so it's time to get off the tracks.

Just because you've always hosted your dad on Xmas doesn't mean you have to this year.  You are perfectly within your rights to reserve that day for your immediate family.  I would start by telling brother that under no circumstances is dad going to ruin your Christmas with your family this year.  It's up to him if he wants to host him on that day, but you aren't.   Period.

See what he says.  If he says he's not going to host, either, then there's little you can do about that.  But I would hold firm in my conviction that dad isn't coming to your house.  As far as an explanation to your dad, you don't have to elaborate.  "Not going to work you coming this year.  Wife doesn't know what her schedule will be like."  And then hold to that.  Repeat it fifty times if you have to, like a broken record.  Don't let your dad "guilt" you into hosting him. 

Your dad is not going to like any arrangements you make short of having him over so he can ruin your day.  So I wouldn't expect anything less than a tantrum.  Let him have his tantrum.  Better have it over the phone than at your house on Xmas. 

You could offer an alternative if you are so inclined, such as getting together on Boxing Day like you offered last year.  But as I said, he won't like it no matter what, so just expect that and stand your ground.

You might look at this situation like you are doing your dad a favor.  Not only is your family miserable when he attends this event, he is miserable, too-- or at least he claims to be.  So not hosting him is better for everyone.     My two cents.

Hes definitely not coming - no way jose. I did it for years like you said but hes blown it now.

I used to say to my wife - just put with him for a few hours once a year and she would. BUT its gone past that. Hes my Dad, I cant bail on him completely, but its not fair he spoils everyone elses xmas.

He went to my brothers last year and moaned because brother planned to take him to the pub for an hour. Brother always goes. I did stick up for my brother and said to dad "he always goes on xmas day, if you don't want to join him then stay home".

In Dads eyes, its not a favour. Its duty. Hes old and someone has to have him over for xmas. My family and kids need to understand how this works because he has to be put first.

I have a feeling this year brother won't want to have him and I'll get woe is me I'm all alone. Of course, his sister and his cousin wont invite him. They've criticised me in the past. Apparently its my duty to do this but they keep their heads down when he needs them. Great, eh?

Of course, with my wife being a nurse, I've got an easy out. I should tell him straight but its easier to lie to be honest. Not sure how long I'm going to be able to say shes working EVERY xmas day though.

Boxing day is doable. Wife has volunteered to work then. Which is fine - like I said I cant submit them to my Dad. Other than that I am hoping to talk him into going out instead.

[illogical]

...Of course, with my wife being a nurse, I've got an easy out. I should tell him straight but its easier to lie to be honest. Not sure how long I'm going to be able to say shes working EVERY xmas day though.

Boxing day is doable. Wife has volunteered to work then. Which is fine - like I said I cant submit them to my Dad. Other than that I am hoping to talk him into going out instead.

It's hard to break the habit of JADEing.  Maybe you feel you owe him an explanation of why he can't come.  But the truth is, you don't.  It's your time and your family, and he has abused the "privilege" of coming to your house.  And not just once has he abused it.  It's happened over and over and over again.

So if you don't want to tell him about your wife's uncertain schedule, then don't.  Just say "It's not going to work for us this year, Dad.  You'll need to make other arrangements for Xmas.  We can still get together on Boxing Day."  Rinse, lather and repeat, despite his protests, "But.....but....but.  I'm your dad and you owe me."  Ignore and stick to your guns.

It will no doubt be hard, but you can do this!  Think of your dad as a spoiled child who won't compromise.  Who won't meet you halfway, just throws a tantrum.  Makes it easier to say "No."  You have to be the parent here instead of the child, which is twisted, but welcome to PD world.  Resist the urge to JADE.  "No" is a complete sentence.  It doesn't have to be said in an angry or annoyed tone, but it has to be said firmly and with conviction. 

[Pepin]

This is soooo difficult.  My anxiety with regards to Thanksgiving and Xmas has already started.  Like you, it was our responsibility to host PDmil (and FIL when he was alive) for both of these holidays.  DH has 3 other siblings.  Why can't one of them step up?  Turns out that PDmil gravitates toward us because she likes our "environment" and because apparently I am the easiest spouse to get along with. 

That all stopped several years ago especially after I had enough coddling PDmil after FIL passed away.  I just couldn't do it anymore and I was tired of DH doing the same.  We tried so hard to help her with the transition into widowhood.  The thing is though is that she refused to start this new and different chapter in her life and more or less wanted DH to fill in FIL's shoes.  Uh, DH is my husband and he is a Dad.  Those are his first two responsibilities before filling any duties as son....but PDmil just didn't like that particular order.  She felt that "son" needed to come first.  I and the kids became invisible to her....even after all we had done.

As you can imagine, holidays have largely been about PDmil and not the holiday itself.  Why must it be about her?  Shouldn't it be about Thanksgiving or Xmas?  If we host Thanksgiving for example, why must she bring over stuff she has cooked up without asking?  DOn't even get me started about where she sat at the table....of course she would want to sit next to DH.  Nope.  I fixed that with table name cards.  She had this horrible way of heaping more food onto DH's plate....and yeah, DH is in his 50s and overweight.  Please.  But she wanted him to eat MORE because clearly he wasn't eating enough. 

At Xmas she would try the same thing....bringing something over that she made that clearly didn't go with what I had made....mind you at both these holidays she either sits there not participating in anything OR she exclusively talks with DH NOT IN ENGLISH!  In. The. Home. I. Share. With. My. Husband. and. Kids.     No more of that!!!  Highly disrespectful.

Thank fully the last few years we have gotten out of hosting for many reasons....weather (thank you!), PDmil's health ( ), and being out of town. 

Like your father, my PDmil doesn't deserve to partake in these holiday celebrations because of her mood she exhibits with her presence.  It is such a major downer.  DH also has to be the taxi driver and doesn't get to enjoy his alcohol.  Who wants to go out in the rain or snow after that in the dark?  She could take an Uber or Lyft...but NO....that wouldn't work. 

Like the others have mentioned, do what you want to do and offer what you think is reasonable....and NO is also reasonable to all of it.  It is amazing how lopsided things get...especially when other siblings are involved.  And not only that, but the damaging Hallmark notion that we have to gather with extended family?  It is r.i.d.c.u.l.o.u.s.  -- especially with those like ours that behave badly?  They get a reward for behaving this way -- a nice meal and festive environment?  Nope.  Not in my book anymore.  I'll stick to just DH and the kids, thank you.  PDmil can figure out her own arrangements but she ain't gracing my dinner table anymore.

[Hazy111]

Ahh the guilt which they project, which they never seem to suffer from. If you think youre worrying about it, hes already planning it!!!

I remember my Dad saying in August " I dont suppose ill see you again before Xmas" . Hes already planning Xmas! So the assumption is i will see him before Xmas as well. When i did see him, the parting line would be, "Ohh it was so good to see you,, THEN THE KILLER GUILT TRIP , dont leave it so long next time, will you" I had to drive half way across the country at Xmas and he didnt give  F*** about me. 

Xmas before last he was in hospital and he didnt even get a Xmas meal! He made up for it by planning his own birthday party in March . I remember him phoning me on my birthday to remind me about his party, No he didnt wish me happy birthday and no i didnt go to his. 

[p123]

...Of course, with my wife being a nurse, I've got an easy out. I should tell him straight but its easier to lie to be honest. Not sure how long I'm going to be able to say shes working EVERY xmas day though.

Boxing day is doable. Wife has volunteered to work then. Which is fine - like I said I cant submit them to my Dad. Other than that I am hoping to talk him into going out instead.

It's hard to break the habit of JADEing.  Maybe you feel you owe him an explanation of why he can't come.  But the truth is, you don't.  It's your time and your family, and he has abused the "privilege" of coming to your house.  And not just once has he abused it.  It's happened over and over and over again.

So if you don't want to tell him about your wife's uncertain schedule, then don't.  Just say "It's not going to work for us this year, Dad.  You'll need to make other arrangements for Xmas.  We can still get together on Boxing Day."  Rinse, lather and repeat, despite his protests, "But.....but....but.  I'm your dad and you owe me."  Ignore and stick to your guns.

It will no doubt be hard, but you can do this!  Think of your dad as a spoiled child who won't compromise.  Who won't meet you halfway, just throws a tantrum.  Makes it easier to say "No."  You have to be the parent here instead of the child, which is twisted, but welcome to PD world.  Resist the urge to JADE.  "No" is a complete sentence.  It doesn't have to be said in an angry or annoyed tone, but it has to be said firmly and with conviction.

Yeh I know. I should just say no. Its just easier to lie to him and JADE I suppose.

If I just said no, honestly, he'd go on and on and on for months. If I say "sorry wife working" it'll last a few days.

[p123]

This is soooo difficult.  My anxiety with regards to Thanksgiving and Xmas has already started.  Like you, it was our responsibility to host PDmil (and FIL when he was alive) for both of these holidays.  DH has 3 other siblings.  Why can't one of them step up?  Turns out that PDmil gravitates toward us because she likes our "environment" and because apparently I am the easiest spouse to get along with. 

That all stopped several years ago especially after I had enough coddling PDmil after FIL passed away.  I just couldn't do it anymore and I was tired of DH doing the same.  We tried so hard to help her with the transition into widowhood.  The thing is though is that she refused to start this new and different chapter in her life and more or less wanted DH to fill in FIL's shoes.  Uh, DH is my husband and he is a Dad.  Those are his first two responsibilities before filling any duties as son....but PDmil just didn't like that particular order.  She felt that "son" needed to come first.  I and the kids became invisible to her....even after all we had done.

As you can imagine, holidays have largely been about PDmil and not the holiday itself.  Why must it be about her?  Shouldn't it be about Thanksgiving or Xmas?  If we host Thanksgiving for example, why must she bring over stuff she has cooked up without asking?  DOn't even get me started about where she sat at the table....of course she would want to sit next to DH.  Nope.  I fixed that with table name cards.  She had this horrible way of heaping more food onto DH's plate....and yeah, DH is in his 50s and overweight.  Please.  But she wanted him to eat MORE because clearly he wasn't eating enough. 

At Xmas she would try the same thing....bringing something over that she made that clearly didn't go with what I had made....mind you at both these holidays she either sits there not participating in anything OR she exclusively talks with DH NOT IN ENGLISH!  In. The. Home. I. Share. With. My. Husband. and. Kids.     No more of that!!!  Highly disrespectful.

Thank fully the last few years we have gotten out of hosting for many reasons....weather (thank you!), PDmil's health ( ), and being out of town. 

Like your father, my PDmil doesn't deserve to partake in these holiday celebrations because of her mood she exhibits with her presence.  It is such a major downer.  DH also has to be the taxi driver and doesn't get to enjoy his alcohol.  Who wants to go out in the rain or snow after that in the dark?  She could take an Uber or Lyft...but NO....that wouldn't work. 

Like the others have mentioned, do what you want to do and offer what you think is reasonable....and NO is also reasonable to all of it.  It is amazing how lopsided things get...especially when other siblings are involved.  And not only that, but the damaging Hallmark notion that we have to gather with extended family?  It is r.i.d.c.u.l.o.u.s.  -- especially with those like ours that behave badly?  They get a reward for behaving this way -- a nice meal and festive environment?  Nope.  Not in my book anymore.  I'll stick to just DH and the kids, thank you.  PDmil can figure out her own arrangements but she ain't gracing my dinner table anymore.

Sounds very similar.

My MIL comes over xmas day as well - has done for years. Now she has her moments but 99% of the time shes fine. She sits there xmas day and causes no bother for anyone. Not like my Dad!

I do have to be VERY careful not to let any of this out of the bag i.e. that MIL is there and hes not. Of course, she behaves and he doesn't but I can't really tell him that. If I did, he'd look at me as if I was mad and tell me he has no idea what hes done wrong. Hes like that - forgets/sweeps things under the carpet he wants to avoid talking about.

[p123]

Ahh the guilt which they project, which they never seem to suffer from. If you think youre worrying about it, hes already planning it!!!

I remember my Dad saying in August " I dont suppose ill see you again before Xmas" . Hes already planning Xmas! So the assumption is i will see him before Xmas as well. When i did see him, the parting line would be, "Ohh it was so good to see you,, THEN THE KILLER GUILT TRIP , dont leave it so long next time, will you" I had to drive half way across the country at Xmas and he didnt give  F*** about me. 

Xmas before last he was in hospital and he didnt even get a Xmas meal! He made up for it by planning his own birthday party in March . I remember him phoning me on my birthday to remind me about his party, No he didnt wish me happy birthday and no i didnt go to his.

OMG. Yes. I bet he is. His favourite saying if for whatever reason I tell him I can't come so won't see him for possibly 7 days is "oh well keep in touch" as if I'm going around the world for a year. That REALLY annoys me.

I remember a few years ago he was in hospital over xmas. My son was about 5 at the time. Hospital was 35 miles away from us. Anyway, he demanded pretty much that I be there at 10am no later to see him.

I told him thats going to be tough, I'll be there lunchtime when son has opened all his presents. I'll never ever forget how he said "Well, there'll be other xmases for that sort of thing. Everyone needs to understand how it works. I don't want to be here so you'll have to make a big effort".

Not quite sure how he expected a 5 year old to "understand" to be honest. Other xmases? This was 10 years ago and hes tried to make every single one about him ever since.

I didn't go at 10am and he was livid. Kept on and on and on. I almost walked out of the hospital but managed to bite my tongue and ignore him. By the time I left I was steaming mad, but glad I'd not given in to him.

I dread the times hes in hospital now. He thinks he can click his fingers and get visitors. He expects me and everyone else to visit every evening hes in hospital. Its not possible with childcare mostly. He once said - "tell you're wife the kids are her problem. I want a visit from you so you need to put her in her place. If she needs to cancel work then she'll have to do that". So I'd say no I can't come that night, he'd say "yes you can make an effort" so I ignored him and didnt go. Next night I visited he'd spend 20 mins of the hour wanting to know why I hadn't come (and I ignored him), then rinse and repeat  - 10 mins again telling me he wants a "big effort" tomorrow night.

Bit rich considering my wifes a community nurse and he tends to milk this service for what its worth. Can imagine his face if he didn't get a visit because the nurse in question had decided to take the day off at short notice.

[Fiasco]

If I just said no, honestly, he'd go on and on and on for months. If I say "sorry wife working" it'll last a few days.

You can't stop him from going on but you certainly don't have to listen. If he starts up interrupt him and say we've already discussed this. If he continues say change the subject dad or I'll have to hang up and then do it.  If he REALLY won't quit bringing up a given topic you can hit him back with, gee dad, you really can't remember all the times I've answered this question already? Maybe you need to go into a home. 

Same with when he tells you what to do or tells your wife to take a day off. You can't change him but you can change your responses to him.

[lkdrymom]

Ahh the guilt which they project, which they never seem to suffer from. If you think youre worrying about it, hes already planning it!!!

I remember my Dad saying in August " I dont suppose ill see you again before Xmas" . Hes already planning Xmas! So the assumption is i will see him before Xmas as well. When i did see him, the parting line would be, "Ohh it was so good to see you,, THEN THE KILLER GUILT TRIP , dont leave it so long next time, will you" I had to drive half way across the country at Xmas and he didnt give  F*** about me. 

Xmas before last he was in hospital and he didnt even get a Xmas meal! He made up for it by planning his own birthday party in March . I remember him phoning me on my birthday to remind me about his party, No he didnt wish me happy birthday and no i didnt go to his.

OMG. Yes. I bet he is. His favourite saying if for whatever reason I tell him I can't come so won't see him for possibly 7 days is "oh well keep in touch" as if I'm going around the world for a year. That REALLY annoys me.

I remember a few years ago he was in hospital over xmas. My son was about 5 at the time. Hospital was 35 miles away from us. Anyway, he demanded pretty much that I be there at 10am no later to see him.

I told him thats going to be tough, I'll be there lunchtime when son has opened all his presents. I'll never ever forget how he said "Well, there'll be other xmases for that sort of thing. Everyone needs to understand how it works. I don't want to be here so you'll have to make a big effort".

Not quite sure how he expected a 5 year old to "understand" to be honest. Other xmases? This was 10 years ago and hes tried to make every single one about him ever since.

I didn't go at 10am and he was livid. Kept on and on and on. I almost walked out of the hospital but managed to bite my tongue and ignore him. By the time I left I was steaming mad, but glad I'd not given in to him.

I dread the times hes in hospital now. He thinks he can click his fingers and get visitors. He expects me and everyone else to visit every evening hes in hospital. Its not possible with childcare mostly. He once said - "tell you're wife the kids are her problem. I want a visit from you so you need to put her in her place. If she needs to cancel work then she'll have to do that". So I'd say no I can't come that night, he'd say "yes you can make an effort" so I ignored him and didnt go. Next night I visited he'd spend 20 mins of the hour wanting to know why I hadn't come (and I ignored him), then rinse and repeat  - 10 mins again telling me he wants a "big effort" tomorrow night.

Bit rich considering my wifes a community nurse and he tends to milk this service for what its worth. Can imagine his face if he didn't get a visit because the nurse in question had decided to take the day off at short notice.

Why do you HAVE to visit him in the hospital? My father goes to the hospital so often I stopped going YEARS ago.   Until it is "The Big One", there is not point.  I only visit if they are taking him to rehab and he needs clothing.  I wait until he gets to rehab then I pack him a bag.

[lkdrymom]

I am worried about Thanksgiving and Christmas too.  My father isn't rude to anyone but he does talk about a lot of inappropriate things...mainly his poop.    And I am so fed up with being the chauffeur.  Sometimes I can get one of my kids to pick him up but it is still a lot of work when you are hosting and also in charge of getting them back home.  It is just too much work having him over.  I know he likes to come over but now he mostly stares off into space or sleeps so what is the point?  Especially for all the work it is to get him there.  But then I would feel bad if we didn't bring him over yet when I do I resent every single second of it.

Last year he didn't mention he can no longer take himself to the bathroom.  I got to miss everyone opening stockings because I had to take him.  That is where I draw the  line.

[illogical]

...You can’t stop him from going on but you certainly don’t have to listen. If he starts up interrupt him and say we’ve already discussed this. If he continues say change the subject dad or I’ll have to hang up and then do it.  If he REALLY won’t quit bringing up a given topic you can hit him back with, gee dad, you really can’t remember all the times I’ve answered this question already? Maybe you need to go into a home. 

Same with when he tells you what to do or tells your wife to take a day off. You can’t change him but you can change your responses to him.

Absolutely.  If, after you say "That [him coming over for Christmas] won't work.  You'll have to make other plans", he keeps insisting or asking "Why?" you say "Dad, I've already told you that won't work for us.  I don't want to discuss it anymore."  Then, if he ignores and continues to persist, you say "Gotta go.  I'll talk to you later."  Then hang up.

Boundaries are all about what is "his" stuff and what is "your" stuff.  "Your" stuff is stuff that you are in charge of.  And you are in charge of who you invite for Xmas.  It's all about adjusting your mindset to taking the adult stance.  Your dad tries to keep you in "child mode" by dictating what your response should be.  In reading over your posts on this thread, he appears to do that frequently. 

As Fiasco says, you don't have control over his responses, but you have control over yours.  Take the reins and be assertive.  You can't worry about hurting his feelings here.  His feelings are going to get hurt no matter what you do, short of complying with his requests 100%.  Set a boundary-- e.g., he'll have to make other plans at Xmas.  Then provide a consequence if he tramples that boundary.  So if he ignores what you are telling him, that his coming to your house won't work, you give him a consequence, such as shutting down the conversation and letting him have his tantrum by himself.

Boundary setting is difficult, but necessary, if you want to carve out a life for yourself while still engaging with a PD.  The key is following through and not letting the situation sink back into what it was before-- your dad dictating the parameters, calling the shots and having everyone around him jump through hoops.  He will likely continue to try to do so, but you do have some power here in refusing to comply with his requests. 

[WomanInterrupted]

I agree - you're too soft with your dad, and really need to shore up your boundaries.

It doesn't matter what your dad *wants* or thinks he's entitled to - if he expects you to pick him up at 9, but noon works better for you, that's what you offer, no matter what he says. 

"Dad, I can pick you up at noon.  No, 9AM doesn't work for me.   It's noon or nothing.  Your choice." 

If he chooses to stay home - fine.  If he chooses to be picked up at noon, but does nothing but complain about it, don't even let him in your car.  State, "Obviously, this is a bad idea." - and *leave.* 

Hospitals?  It doesn't matter what time he wants you - show up when the time works for YOU.  If he complains - leave. 

And you don't even have to visit him.  Hell, Didi was in the hospital about 20 or more times, in the last year of her life, and I didn't go once. 

I only went to visit Ray for 5 minutes, and that was just to drop off his teeth and leave.  If he hadn't needed his teeth, I wouldn't have gone. 

Just because he's in a hospital, doesn't mean your life goes on stand-by.  Your life goes on, as usual - and if you can't or won't make time to visit your dad, there's nothing wrong with that.

You can't control your dad - but you can control YOU.  You can stop JADEing (no reasons other than, "This is what's happening, and when..."    ) and visiting, stopping over, or bringing him to yours when the time is convenient for YOU - and if that happens to be never, it is what it is.   

It doesn't matter if your dad gets all butt-hurt.  He's going to be all butt-hurt, unless he gets his way, so take his emotions *out* of it, and stick to *facts* and things you can control - like when you visit, how long you visit, or when he comes over to yours, and for how long.  YOU dictate that - not your dad, and if he doesn't like it, he can stay home, or find somebody else to see to his needs at his house. 

Your dad isn't going to like your boundaries - too bad.  He doesn't get a say, and he doesn't get to run roughshod over you and yours by trying to control situations, and telling you and yours what you SHOULD be doing, or how you SHOULD be spending (or not) your money.

Explain nothing about work - only that you can come at X time, and stay for X amount of time.

If he doesn't like it - too bad.  "Dad, that's all I can do, and if you don't like it, I can always stay home, and you can figure out something else." 

That's all it takes - putting your foot down and opening your mouth.   

And *keep* opening it state (and DO) your boundaries.   

[p123]

Ahh the guilt which they project, which they never seem to suffer from. If you think youre worrying about it, hes already planning it!!!

I remember my Dad saying in August " I dont suppose ill see you again before Xmas" . Hes already planning Xmas! So the assumption is i will see him before Xmas as well. When i did see him, the parting line would be, "Ohh it was so good to see you,, THEN THE KILLER GUILT TRIP , dont leave it so long next time, will you" I had to drive half way across the country at Xmas and he didnt give  F*** about me. 

Xmas before last he was in hospital and he didnt even get a Xmas meal! He made up for it by planning his own birthday party in March . I remember him phoning me on my birthday to remind me about his party, No he didnt wish me happy birthday and no i didnt go to his.

OMG. Yes. I bet he is. His favourite saying if for whatever reason I tell him I can't come so won't see him for possibly 7 days is "oh well keep in touch" as if I'm going around the world for a year. That REALLY annoys me.

I remember a few years ago he was in hospital over xmas. My son was about 5 at the time. Hospital was 35 miles away from us. Anyway, he demanded pretty much that I be there at 10am no later to see him.

I told him thats going to be tough, I'll be there lunchtime when son has opened all his presents. I'll never ever forget how he said "Well, there'll be other xmases for that sort of thing. Everyone needs to understand how it works. I don't want to be here so you'll have to make a big effort".

Not quite sure how he expected a 5 year old to "understand" to be honest. Other xmases? This was 10 years ago and hes tried to make every single one about him ever since.

I didn't go at 10am and he was livid. Kept on and on and on. I almost walked out of the hospital but managed to bite my tongue and ignore him. By the time I left I was steaming mad, but glad I'd not given in to him.

I dread the times hes in hospital now. He thinks he can click his fingers and get visitors. He expects me and everyone else to visit every evening hes in hospital. Its not possible with childcare mostly. He once said - "tell you're wife the kids are her problem. I want a visit from you so you need to put her in her place. If she needs to cancel work then she'll have to do that". So I'd say no I can't come that night, he'd say "yes you can make an effort" so I ignored him and didnt go. Next night I visited he'd spend 20 mins of the hour wanting to know why I hadn't come (and I ignored him), then rinse and repeat  - 10 mins again telling me he wants a "big effort" tomorrow night.

Bit rich considering my wifes a community nurse and he tends to milk this service for what its worth. Can imagine his face if he didn't get a visit because the nurse in question had decided to take the day off at short notice.

Why do you HAVE to visit him in the hospital? My father goes to the hospital so often I stopped going YEARS ago.   Until it is "The Big One", there is not point.  I only visit if they are taking him to rehab and he needs clothing.  I wait until he gets to rehab then I pack him a bag.

Ha ha - he makes things up so often to get admitted I'd never know its the BIG ONE. lol

[p123]

Thanks all - yes I know I need to be tougher and not give is so much.
Its just easier to lie and not upset him at the moment. I just don't have the strength for the inevitable fight.

Yes I understand what you're all saying. If I said even ONE of those things to him he would escalate it to fight against it. Whatever it takes he would do it. If I EVER told him tough and left the house- he'd get himself admitted to hospital next day.

Yes I know maybe its time to fight through this.....

"Butt-hurt" never heard that before. Obviously, Im from the UK. If someone said to me they were "Butt hurt" I think, without being too rude here, that it meant something had been done involving their butt 

[lkdrymom]

Ahh the guilt which they project, which they never seem to suffer from. If you think youre worrying about it, hes already planning it!!!

I remember my Dad saying in August " I dont suppose ill see you again before Xmas" . Hes already planning Xmas! So the assumption is i will see him before Xmas as well. When i did see him, the parting line would be, "Ohh it was so good to see you,, THEN THE KILLER GUILT TRIP , dont leave it so long next time, will you" I had to drive half way across the country at Xmas and he didnt give  F*** about me. 

Xmas before last he was in hospital and he didnt even get a Xmas meal! He made up for it by planning his own birthday party in March . I remember him phoning me on my birthday to remind me about his party, No he didnt wish me happy birthday and no i didnt go to his.

OMG. Yes. I bet he is. His favourite saying if for whatever reason I tell him I can't come so won't see him for possibly 7 days is "oh well keep in touch" as if I'm going around the world for a year. That REALLY annoys me.

I remember a few years ago he was in hospital over xmas. My son was about 5 at the time. Hospital was 35 miles away from us. Anyway, he demanded pretty much that I be there at 10am no later to see him.

I told him thats going to be tough, I'll be there lunchtime when son has opened all his presents. I'll never ever forget how he said "Well, there'll be other xmases for that sort of thing. Everyone needs to understand how it works. I don't want to be here so you'll have to make a big effort".

Not quite sure how he expected a 5 year old to "understand" to be honest. Other xmases? This was 10 years ago and hes tried to make every single one about him ever since.

I didn't go at 10am and he was livid. Kept on and on and on. I almost walked out of the hospital but managed to bite my tongue and ignore him. By the time I left I was steaming mad, but glad I'd not given in to him.

I dread the times hes in hospital now. He thinks he can click his fingers and get visitors. He expects me and everyone else to visit every evening hes in hospital. Its not possible with childcare mostly. He once said - "tell you're wife the kids are her problem. I want a visit from you so you need to put her in her place. If she needs to cancel work then she'll have to do that". So I'd say no I can't come that night, he'd say "yes you can make an effort" so I ignored him and didnt go. Next night I visited he'd spend 20 mins of the hour wanting to know why I hadn't come (and I ignored him), then rinse and repeat  - 10 mins again telling me he wants a "big effort" tomorrow night.

Bit rich considering my wifes a community nurse and he tends to milk this service for what its worth. Can imagine his face if he didn't get a visit because the nurse in question had decided to take the day off at short notice.

Why do you HAVE to visit him in the hospital? My father goes to the hospital so often I stopped going YEARS ago.   Until it is "The Big One", there is not point.  I only visit if they are taking him to rehab and he needs clothing.  I wait until he gets to rehab then I pack him a bag.

Ha ha - he makes things up so often to get admitted I'd never know its the BIG ONE. lol

I said the same thing about my father....always saying he is dying...well one of these days he will be right...but until then I can't be in 'fire drill mode' jumping every time he claims to be dying.  He brought this on himself. Cried wolf too many times.  Wasted my time too many times.  And if I miss the one time he is right, I can live with that as I jumped so many times for his false alarms.  Not my fault he used up all his chances on BS.

[lkdrymom]

Think of it this way....why are his feelings more important that yours, your wife's or your kids?

[illogical]

Thanks all - yes I know I need to be tougher and not give is so much.
Its just easier to lie and not upset him at the moment. I just don't have the strength for the inevitable fight.

Yes I understand what you're all saying. If I said even ONE of those things to him he would escalate it to fight against it. Whatever it takes he would do it. If I EVER told him tough and left the house- he'd get himself admitted to hospital next day.

Yes I know maybe its time to fight through this.....

Your father is abusive and is acting like a bully.  He's gotten away with it because he's not gotten much resistance.  Yes, the "go-along-to-get-along" strategy is an easy path, but the problem with that is nothing ever changes.   

There is no "convenient" time to face this reality.  It's difficult.  Confronting him with boundaries will very likely result in conflict, but you don't have to be a part of his raging or tantrums.  Let him have those by himself. 

What do you do with a child that's pitching a tantrum?  Give in?  Let him have his way?  That teaches him that anytime he wants something, he just raises a ruckus and he'll get what he wants.  It's an intimidation tactic and it prompts the F in FOG.  Your dad is that child that wants to instill fear in those around him.  It appears he's pretty adept at that game. 

Time to provide consequences for that abusive and bullying behavior.  The Toolbox on this website is a great place to start with "what to do" and "what not to do".  And we're here for you, to help you come through that FOG.   

[p123]

Ahh the guilt which they project, which they never seem to suffer from. If you think youre worrying about it, hes already planning it!!!

I remember my Dad saying in August " I dont suppose ill see you again before Xmas" . Hes already planning Xmas! So the assumption is i will see him before Xmas as well. When i did see him, the parting line would be, "Ohh it was so good to see you,, THEN THE KILLER GUILT TRIP , dont leave it so long next time, will you" I had to drive half way across the country at Xmas and he didnt give  F*** about me. 

Xmas before last he was in hospital and he didnt even get a Xmas meal! He made up for it by planning his own birthday party in March . I remember him phoning me on my birthday to remind me about his party, No he didnt wish me happy birthday and no i didnt go to his.

OMG. Yes. I bet he is. His favourite saying if for whatever reason I tell him I can't come so won't see him for possibly 7 days is "oh well keep in touch" as if I'm going around the world for a year. That REALLY annoys me.

I remember a few years ago he was in hospital over xmas. My son was about 5 at the time. Hospital was 35 miles away from us. Anyway, he demanded pretty much that I be there at 10am no later to see him.

I told him thats going to be tough, I'll be there lunchtime when son has opened all his presents. I'll never ever forget how he said "Well, there'll be other xmases for that sort of thing. Everyone needs to understand how it works. I don't want to be here so you'll have to make a big effort".

Not quite sure how he expected a 5 year old to "understand" to be honest. Other xmases? This was 10 years ago and hes tried to make every single one about him ever since.

I didn't go at 10am and he was livid. Kept on and on and on. I almost walked out of the hospital but managed to bite my tongue and ignore him. By the time I left I was steaming mad, but glad I'd not given in to him.

I dread the times hes in hospital now. He thinks he can click his fingers and get visitors. He expects me and everyone else to visit every evening hes in hospital. Its not possible with childcare mostly. He once said - "tell you're wife the kids are her problem. I want a visit from you so you need to put her in her place. If she needs to cancel work then she'll have to do that". So I'd say no I can't come that night, he'd say "yes you can make an effort" so I ignored him and didnt go. Next night I visited he'd spend 20 mins of the hour wanting to know why I hadn't come (and I ignored him), then rinse and repeat  - 10 mins again telling me he wants a "big effort" tomorrow night.

Bit rich considering my wifes a community nurse and he tends to milk this service for what its worth. Can imagine his face if he didn't get a visit because the nurse in question had decided to take the day off at short notice.

Why do you HAVE to visit him in the hospital? My father goes to the hospital so often I stopped going YEARS ago.   Until it is "The Big One", there is not point.  I only visit if they are taking him to rehab and he needs clothing.  I wait until he gets to rehab then I pack him a bag.

Ha ha - he makes things up so often to get admitted I'd never know its the BIG ONE. lol

I said the same thing about my father....always saying he is dying...well one of these days he will be right...but until then I can't be in 'fire drill mode' jumping every time he claims to be dying.  He brought this on himself. Cried wolf too many times.  Wasted my time too many times.  And if I miss the one time he is right, I can live with that as I jumped so many times for his false alarms.  Not my fault he used up all his chances on BS.

EXACTLY same as me. I've always said Im going to find him dead in his chair one day and everyone inc emergency services are going to say "oops he was ill this time!"