Broken hearted

[blacksheep7]

Hello everyone,

I've been absent from the forum for a while, been on a wonderful vacation in Europe which I had been working/organizing for months.  Now I'm back but sadness hit me again.  I was on the parents/siblings board since 2016.  I worked and healed my relationship concerning my narc parents/widowed mother and went nc which I have no regret.  It was the last resort and in my best interest to do so.  I moved on.

I as learned in the 30 years of on/off therapy, I could only tackle one problem at a time.  Now I am down to my relationship with dd who is 36 yrs old.
Brief background.  I have a ds and dd from my first marriage to their narc father which I left after ten years  of marriage..he insulted me, no respect.  My ds was 8 and dd 6.  My son asked to go live with his father which was fine with me as he was hard to handle since his father left our house.  Our relationship is good....on the other hand dd breaks my heart with her indifference towards me, it is not a loving relationship.  She is just a dutiful daughter but no real sentiments or interest in me, just a formal relationship.  Usually only calls when she needs something, babysitting.

I have to clarify, she is helpful when I need her, ex: drive us to the airport and pick us up upon our return, water my plants when I'm away.....but as I say, she is only being dutiful, making herself look good, being a good dd in the eyes of others as my NM was.  We go on outings but always with the gkids, never alone.   There is a Big discomfort/awkwardness between us: intimacy!   I can not hug her, the times I did, she would give me small pats on my back.  It just the plain kisses on the cheeks.  I stopped trying and she'll avoid it at all costs. 

On Fbook she posts pictures with her dad, none ever with me, that just kills me inside     This week, my vacation pictures, she will "like" a picture of my dh, not of me.

I had my children at 24 and 26 years old and had not emotional intelligence, was not there yet.  Coming from a violent upbringing I did the best I could and never belittled, namecalled  or disrespected her or my son for that matter.  I finally told my kids about my FOO this January and I didn't expect her to understand but she will avoid that conversation and any other that is difficult.   She does not want to see or hear the truth.

She has said hurtful words to me like a teenager would and I feel that she has a grudge against me, I feel it and damn did I learn to trust my instincts since being on this board.

The big slap in the face was when  she gave my dh a book "picture album" of her dh and children as a father's day present and it was past father's day....when she say the expression on my face,  she said "well for grandparents day", I didn't even know that there was one.   She said she had they had it done for father's day...  She has a father for crying out loud.   Something so sentimental should have been given to me, there didn't need to be an occasion for that and my dh agrees 500% with me, he noticed how she acts with me.

All this to say that I am feeling the same way, all over again just like I did with my relationship with NM..  It hurts real bad.

[Gaining Clarity]

  Blacksheep!

I'm sorry your DD is treating you this way. My Nmom and Nsib are completely devoid of physical affection as well.

Your DD's behavior seems passive-aggressive. Do you think she's trying to provoke you in some way?

I notice that passive-aggressives behave this way, hoping they'll get a reaction from you so that they can unleash their pent up anger/resentment in a way that they think is justifiable.

Is it possible she is still harboring feelings when you divorced her dad and her brother went to live with him? Could she be upset about the good relationship you have with your son? Is it possible that she feels she's not getting recognition for helping you? I'm not saying you don't express your appreciation. You might thank her all the time. I just know from my own experiences that even when you thank them, passive-aggressive people still have a problem with you.

Given her behavior, I'm not sure she'll be open if you bring it up. I'd try if you think she'd be forthcoming.

[blacksheep7]

Oh thank you for answering Gaining Clarity it means so much to me! 

I doubt that she doesn't appreciate my help as I have always been there when her kids were sick and had to go babysit.  We even have them for sleepovers and outings.

I just think like you said that she is bitter about the divorce and probably jealous of my relationship with her brother but I can't really see where because I don't see him as often as her. I know they are very close which I am very happy and tell each other everything.  I asked dd to meet with me to talk about our relationship and she asked me what about. I just answered that we have to meet in person.  She's putting it off for now saying that she's booked for a couple of weeks but I will insist on this meeting.  I don't expect it to necessarily go well,  as she has always avoided any real/true difficult conversations.  Knowing her, she might deny it and or have a smirk on her face because of the discomfort.  If so I will ask her, when she leaves to think about it and come back to spit it out once in for all.   It will be very liberating for Me.   I am fed up of playing the "nice guy" all the time.

When she was 21 still living with me, I wanted to have a conversation, it never happened, she walked out and never came back.  I hadn't heard from her only to find out that she  went to live with her father who didn't even call me to le me know she was living there.      We (dd & I) were not talking for 18 months.  Another narc father that lives in avoidance.

For now as I learned on this forum, I am letting go, not calling her or giving her any attention.   I can not answer her calls for now, I have been writing  by email only as this has completely distraught me.

take care xx

[hhaw]

SO Sorry BSheepu7:

Before I talk a little about similar behavfiors from my oldest dd... let s count your blessings. 

You have contact with your grandchildren... that's HUGE.

You have relationships with both your children, and that's something you can build on too.

Whst you can't do is change your dd, the way she feels, or what she thinks.

You can only change the way you respond to her. 

I noticed my oldest dd18, who admitted she treated me badly for years, and is havong a hard time changing that pattern....
I noticed she comes closer to me, hugs me, wants to spend time with me when I'm centered in myself, not asking her for anything, but just focused on self care, and taking care of myself. 

I'm careful not to think about judgments, of her or me, or our relationship.  I just go about my business, and my shift in energy impacts DD18, and the way she looks at me, and our relationship.

I drop all expectation around our relationship, in fact.  I'm completely neutral, and that leaves more space for her to sit up, and pay attention to the space between us, IME.

Now, DD18 and I went through some pretty intensive family T, at a point.  I do think most kids have feelings around a divorce, and maybe feelings of resetnment toward the parent who filed.   

I certainly resented my mother, wasn't always kind, called her by her name for a while, instead of mother.... and I knew it was hurtful at the time. 

My mother pulled away, and resented me right back.  I think she began to dislike me very much on several levels, truthfully.

I can't say what I would have changed,  bc I didn't have the ability. 

When I look back, I ask myself... w hat would I have liked for my mother to do?

I think just sit with me... not judge, or take my pain personally, or PUSH me for the behaviors SHE NEEDED, which is what our relationship turned into.  Her wanting to keep up appearance, and show the family in a particular light.

I really disliked that. 

I'd be curious to see a list of what you want from your relationship with your dd,  what you actually have, in your opinion, and wht you think you're cultivating with your interactions.

I find dropping judgement, and expectation to be super helpful in emotionally charged situations. 

Just having my mother BE present for me, without asking me for things, and pressing me for behaviors, or wanting to fill my calendar with her expectations, and what's important to her would have been nice. 

Just having her BE around, even when I was angry at her,  might have healed the relationship to some extent.

I don't think she was ever sorry that my siblings and I suffered during and after the divorce.  We did. 

I don't think she ever looked at it, or acknowledged it.  She was very young when she married and had us, so she saw what her experience was, and I get that.  I've often had compassion for her, and her situation. 

Feeling she had compassion for me, and my sibs, would have been good.   Being asked what we need, during holidays, and special times would have been nice.  She never did that.

I hope you can stop taking the hurtful things she does personally.  I think she means for you to take them personally, and she's locked into that terrible habit.  I wonder what she'd feel, if anything, if you just refused to be hurt, and just embraced the good between you.  Went out of your way to cultivate it, and just refused to get sucked into the negativity brewing around her relationship with you.

Drop the rope, then pay very close attention to what's going on inside of you.  Where do you feel it in your body?  How does it feel, and really give it attention. 

My hunch is dd will FEEL the empty space where your pain used to be.  I think she'll miss it, and then start missing you.  I don't think she knows what she has, bc she's trapped in this old pattern. 

Give her a little space to feel that, and hopefully look up to see what IS there.

Not everyone has a loving mother.  Not everyone has a parent there to help with sick kids, and babysitting, and everything you offer.

I hope that makes sense.  I sure appreciated my mom later in life.  It took me a very long time, a family tragedy, and her dying of cancer.

I wish we could have healed the relationship before those things came to pass.

I really do think your dd is stuck reacting in old patterns, and that she doesn't even think about them... she just reacts to your pain, neediness, your energy with knee jerk default settings she hasn't questined since she was a child, likely.

Good luck,

[PeanutButter]

SO Sorry BSheepu7:

Before I talk a little about similar behavfiors from my oldest dd... let s count your blessings. 

You have contact with your grandchildren... that's HUGE.

You have relationships with both your children, and that's something you can build on too.

Whst you can't do is change your dd, the way she feels, or what she thinks.

You can only change the way you respond to her. 

I noticed my oldest dd18, who admitted she treated me badly for years, and is havong a hard time changing that pattern....
I noticed she comes closer to me, hugs me, wants to spend time with me when I'm centered in myself, not asking her for anything, but just focused on self care, and taking care of myself. 

I'm careful not to think about judgments, of her or me, or our relationship.  I just go about my business, and my shift in energy impacts DD18, and the way she looks at me, and our relationship.

I drop all expectation around our relationship, in fact.  I'm completely neutral, and that leaves more space for her to sit up, and pay attention to the space between us, IME.

Now, DD18 and I went through some pretty intensive family T, at a point.  I do think most kids have feelings around a divorce, and maybe feelings of resetnment toward the parent who filed.   

I certainly resented my mother, wasn't always kind, called her by her name for a while, instead of mother.... and I knew it was hurtful at the time. 

My mother pulled away, and resented me right back.  I think she began to dislike me very much on several levels, truthfully.

I can't say what I would have changed,  bc I didn't have the ability. 

When I look back, I ask myself... w hat would I have liked for my mother to do?

I think just sit with me... not judge, or take my pain personally, or PUSH me for the behaviors SHE NEEDED, which is what our relationship turned into.  Her wanting to keep up appearance, and show the family in a particular light.

I really disliked that. 

I'd be curious to see a list of what you want from your relationship with your dd,  what you actually have, in your opinion, and wht you think you're cultivating with your interactions.

I find dropping judgement, and expectation to be super helpful in emotionally charged situations. 

Just having my mother BE present for me, without asking me for things, and pressing me for behaviors, or wanting to fill my calendar with her expectations, and what's important to her would have been nice. 

Just having her BE around, even when I was angry at her,  might have healed the relationship to some extent.

I don't think she was ever sorry that my siblings and I suffered during and after the divorce.  We did. 

I don't think she ever looked at it, or acknowledged it.  She was very young when she married and had us, so she saw what her experience was, and I get that.  I've often had compassion for her, and her situation. 

Feeling she had compassion for me, and my sibs, would have been good.   Being asked what we need, during holidays, and special times would have been nice.  She never did that.

I hope you can stop taking the hurtful things she does personally.  I think she means for you to take them personally, and she's locked into that terrible habit.  I wonder what she'd feel, if anything, if you just refused to be hurt, and just embraced the good between you.  Went out of your way to cultivate it, and just refused to get sucked into the negativity brewing around her relationship with you.

Drop the rope, then pay very close attention to what's going on inside of you.  Where do you feel it in your body?  How does it feel, and really give it attention. 

My hunch is dd will FEEL the empty space where your pain used to be.  I think she'll miss it, and then start missing you.  I don't think she knows what she has, bc she's trapped in this old pattern. 

Give her a little space to feel that, and hopefully look up to see what IS there.

Not everyone has a loving mother.  Not everyone has a parent there to help with sick kids, and babysitting, and everything you offer.

I hope that makes sense.  I sure appreciated my mom later in life.  It took me a very long time, a family tragedy, and her dying of cancer.

I wish we could have healed the relationship before those things came to pass.

I really do think your dd is stuck reacting in old patterns, and that she doesn't even think about them... she just reacts to your pain, neediness, your energy with knee jerk default settings she hasn't questined since she was a child, likely.

Good luck,

I just want to say wow i admire and appreciate everything you said. I find it to be illuminating to so many issues I myself have experienced! Thank you for sharing!

[blacksheep7]

Thank you for responding hhaw. I appreciate your point of view, good insight indeed.

I'm sorry that you also had a difficult relationship with your dd and mother.  I also feel for all of us on this forum, we understand each other and it is heartwarming in cold hard times.

I do count my blessings!  As you said I realize that I have wonderful children, grand-children which I love and most of all I am healthy which is a good factor that I remind myself daily.

Quote: I'd be curious to see a list of what you want from your relationship with your dd,  what you actually have, in your opinion, and what you think you're cultivating with your interactions.

I am satisfied, happy and content with what she does give me, much time with my g-children.  She even does facetime without me asking which is a Huge joy and part of my blessings.   As I said she gives without me asking.

I don't judge her, never did and I certainly don't  ask for her attention.  I praise her whenever possible, telling her that she is a good mother etc..
She throws birthday parties for her small boys and I offer to help as she makes the buffet herself and nice cakes.  She accepts my help or will ask for it and appreciates it.

She has mentioned resentments that she had towards me in the past and I did not react in defense.  I apologized for my faults making her feel hurt today, that I was young and inexperienced, to only repeat certain patterns of how I was brought up.  She did feel the sorrow and even told me to not cry.

I stopped having expectations a long time ago, when she wasn't a mother yet.  I would ask her to go to the movies or shopping, maybe once or twice a year and understood after her refusals.  That is where I dropped the rope.

I don't have neediness towards her, I do my business and let her live her life which she does fully.   It is her deliberate actions that hurt (as the photo book), sometimes words and personal lack of affection, emotions or real interest in me.  When she calls it's all about her.  Since I came back from vacations, she asked if we enjoyed them, it stops there.  That, I can not change and will not try to.

I am not defending myself here but giving more details on our relationship.  No, I can not change her but at her age we should be able to communicate as this is a major element in any relationship, trying to build to a better one by addressing our hurts.  I don't have a dd that is out of control mentally. 

This is my point of view from my life experience and therapy as a mother and daughter, at 64 years old.

I can now see that when I wrote my original post, I had anger and hurt in me.  I would not speak this way to dd.  I also learned to wait out the moment.

bs7

[hhaw]

If you got anything out of that, I'm glad, Blacksheep.

You understand I was sharing my own experience, and honestly not drawing any real connections between you, and my mother, etc.

It was more a running commentary on what I saw, and how I interpreted my experience.

I did see all the wonderful things you posted about your dd, and your relationship with her.  I absolutely don't have the idea you're overstepping, or pushing with her.

I think I wanted to draw attention to our energy, at any given time, and how we can be more mindful of it... all of us... to get more of what we want, always.

Also, the energy of others, and how we can get stuck.  Sometimes a shift comes when we stop doing what we've been doing, and pay attention to ourselves san judment, and expectation.

Leaning into our moments, with curiosity, has been helpful, IME.

In family T we learned to repeat back what the other person said, so they felt understood, and could then listen to what we had to say.  This is helpful, in general, and not easy to do, IME.

[blacksheep7]

Thank you hhaw

I did not take your comments in a negative way, we each have our story and own experience.  I'm just happy that you did reply and as I said you made good comments and insight

Tell me, what does IME stand for....it's about time I know, lol

[hhaw]

IME In my experience: )

[blacksheep7]

Another remark  

Last week I decided to have my my kids and grand kids for supper this Saturday past since it hasn't happened in months, although I did see my gkids at Halloween and two Saturday's ago....my gson wanted to come over for the day.

So were sitting at the dinner table and my ds and dd were giggling and I asked if they would like share what it was.  My dd answered " You can't know since it's only for the "Smiths" (their fictitious name) and you decided to leave that family."   

Wow...If that isn't hitting below the belt.     

I didn't answer that.   

I guess  she doesn't know that to be loved, you have to be kind.

[momnthefog]

blacksheep....sounds like something my BPDd would say to undermine the situation and play one side against the other side.

Are you allowed to see gson by himself?

If so, maybe put your efforts on your relationship with him, creating a safe place and lots of memories.

momnthefog

[blacksheep7]

Momnthefog

Thanks for your reply.  Sorry that you also have a dd like that. 

Yes I can see them by myself, as I did have both gsons (brothers) two weeks ago. That's how it will be from now on.

I thought I would be a nice gesture to have my kids for supper  since I hadn't in months. I'm just hurting myself  but it certainly  will change from now on.....even the babysitting and services will be lowered by a "'I'm busy".

The "other side is perfect" in her eyes...omg, far from that.

[scapegoatnumerouno]

Sounds to me that your DD is making nasty little digs at you.  sounds like a problem of HERS.  I hope you get to the point that you truly recognize this.  When you do you will be free to have a great relationship with your grandsons and not worry about any bugs that may have crawled up your daughters ass.  Sounds like she is just that kind of person.  You are mom....easy target.  I say dont let her hold you hostage to the wondering, be at peace and know that its just her issue.

[blacksheep7]

Yes blueheart, my dd has been making nasty little digs at me for some time now and she's good at it.  She is near forty, imagine.

I do know that it is her problem, not mine.  I finally figured out (with the last remark) that she holds me responsible for the divorce with her father, not growing up in her fantasy world of a perfect family.  Unfortunately she also has no clue of how her father treated me and why I left him....no respect and snarky remarks just like her.

He had the easy role of having her every second weekend and bought her love.  It was all fun when she used to go there, no discipline.  So he is the good parent. 

My love for my grandsons does not get in the way, I could have them over without her being present.  The eldest, six was the one who asked to come visit.   I am very grateful for that at least. 

[Free2Bme]

blacksheep,
No sage advice, just wishing you healing and peace in your relationship with your DD.


hhaw,
Really grateful for your insight here,  your post has shed light for me in many ways.   

[blacksheep7]

Free2Bme 
Thank you for your kind words.

[nanotech]

Sending hugs. It's hard.
My relationship with my adult son has always been rocky. It's improved recently. I think it's because I've realised that he is just wired differently, and can't or won't ever respond like my other children.
He just is as he is.
About a year ago I began to think he could possibly be PD. I recently had therapy and was talking about him, describing how he was, and my therapist mentioned that he could be on the mild end of the autistic spectrum. 
Since I've considered that  explanation ( not a label for convenience, I'm just viewing it as a possibility) about my son, whether or not  it's true, I've straight away been more able to cope with our relationship. And it's got better.
It's not that Iowered my expectations, I've just changed them that's all.

I think what I'm saying is, don't give up. And she loves you.
There may be some resentment there about something. My son always thought he was treated like  the black sheep. He wasn't. But I've stopped trying to get him to respond to me like the other two do. And that's helped.  He's him, and I'm letting him be now.
He communicates in his own way- not as demonstrative as my other two. He forgets special days still, forgets to tidy up after himself etc, he's careless, but now I don't react as I did in the past. I mention things but I don't get emotional.
How they behave isn't always meant to be a slight on us.
Plus his self care is improving.
Your daughter carries out many acts of love for you. Take comfort from that. Xxxx

PS OMG just seen the comment your daughter said to you at the dinner table where she excluded you from the joke with a put down.
I think if she says anything like that again maybe tell her calmly that it's not acceptable, and there's always two sides to every story.
You had just cooked for them and fed them?
Make it clear you are not going to tolerate comments like that. You are being a good grandparent to her children so you are in the family. You haven't left. You never left.
I've said all the above about trying to get on but that comment from her has really made me cross!
I think maybe by not pulling her up on these things- is there a little part of you that feels you deserve such treatment? A lot of us from narcissistic upbringings are more than ready to take blame and shame.
Make yourself someone who doesn't accept blame and shame.  Be proactive. No respect - then take a break from the childcare. It's not conditional love, it's boundaries and it's fine.  She's being conditional right now. 
She's letting you be in hers and grandkids lives as long as she can be rude to you every now and then and make you feel like crap. Not on.
I used to do this with my son and now I don't worry what he thinks of me.  We now get on better than ever. Who knew that if I just started liking and rating myself it would begin this upturn for mine and my son's relationship!

Your son sort of colluded with that comment as well, by not saying anything in your defence? Maybe sit down all four of you and have a talk about respect? You split up a long time ago and you  continued to co-parent successfully.  No need for it to be dragged up all of the time so that DD can sink into victim mode is there?  Unfair doesn't cover it.

[PeanutButter]

 I think it very wise to evaluate what our expectations are. Dig deeply to discover what we need and is the need something we should expect our child to fullfill for us. As mentioned 'are we seeking approval from our child'? Are we expecting our child to defend us against someone's smearing? Are we wishing that our child would take our side in a family relationship that is now broken?
Then once we remove these expectations of getting our emotional needs met IME if we want we can focus on our adult childs needs and be there for them in a way that is impossible when we are seeking certian behaviors and expecting certian behaviors and becoming upset when we dont see or hear what we want from them.

[nanotech]

I think it very wise to evaluate what our expectations are. Dig deeply to discover what we need and is the need something we should expect our child to fullfill for us. As mentioned 'are we seeking approval from our child'? Are we expecting our child to defend us against someone's smearing? Are we wishing that our child would take our side in a family relationship that is now broken?
Then once we remove these expectations of getting our emotional needs met IME if we want we can focus on our adult childs needs and be there for them in a way that is impossible when we are seeking certian behaviors and expecting certian behaviors and becoming upset when we dont see or hear what we want from them.

Absolutely spot on here Peanut Butter. 

[blacksheep7]

Hi,
I just realized that I  haven't  given an update.  I had a talk with DD before the pandemic, no hard feelings.

Sending hugs. It's hard.
Thank you
My relationship with my adult son has always been rocky. It's improved recently. 
He just is as he is.
I've straight away been more able to cope with our relationship. And it's got better.
It's not that Iowered my expectations, I've just changed them that's all.
I have also changed mine as she is very independent.  The apple did not fall far from the tree.
During covid-19 in the middle of the pandemic, a month had passed and no news, so I called her and made no remark that I didn't hear from her. I learned that it's no use plus I do know better having had a NM who would always complain about that even though I would call regularly
I think what I'm saying is, don't give up. And she loves you.
Your daughter carries out many acts of love for you. Take comfort from that. Xxxx
Yes she does, it's clear that she still wants to please.
PS OMG just seen the comment your daughter said to you at the dinner table where she excluded you from the joke with a put down. You had just cooked for them and fed them?
Yes, I cooked for them. 
I will sometimes freeze instead of responding like I usually do, I was just Flabergasted by that comment. 
Make it clear you are not going to tolerate comments like that. You are being a good grandparent to her children so you are in the family. You haven't left. You never left.
I told her that.  She didn't remember saying it...selective memory.
Your son sort of colluded with that comment as well, by not saying anything in your defence? Maybe sit down all four of you and have a talk about respect?
I did have a sit down but individually because they are good on ganging up on me which is what I told them.  I also told ds that he shouldn't always have a say in our  conversation when he is not aware of all the facts of our relationship, that there are two sides to a story.  He also disrespected me with emotional blackmail  this year (in march).  I told him that I do not accept that behavior or way of solving a conflict or disagreement.  It's just attacking back instead of reasoning.

DD did come by, surprising me with gkids a couple of times during pandemic.  They remained in the suv and I feet away from them.  I always text back later in the day to tell her how she made my day with their visit.
We even went in their yard last Sunday keeping our distances and this was her invitation. 

As for ds, he came by once with his dd.  Our relationship has changed because of our sit down,  doesn't call as often as he used to.  It is what it is, so I call him when I want some news.
Dh and I had a couple facetimes with our grandkids during the pandemic.  I can't complain.