Family Therapy

[Whiteheron]

Does anyone have any references or sources pertaining to why it's not good for the children to enter into "family therapy" with an emotional abuser? I'm looking online and everything I find is related to couples and marriage counseling. The same concept applies, but I want to send my L a summary with references and I'd prefer to have them specific to children.

The best thing I've found so far was from the National Domestic Violence Hotline website. Short and to the point, but talks about couples, not children.

Thx in advance.

[Arkhangelsk]

This one is hard.  My judge loves to order therapy.  She is immune to the argument that therapy is awful if the therapist does not know how to deal with a PD.

My suggestion is that you not argue against therapy.  Instead you argue for high-conflict expertise.  I got this into my order - so that I could reject therapists without a background that would allow them to recognize the dynamic. 

[D.Dan]

I don't have any sources, sorry but I did try to research therapy options before deciding to divorce my uPDex.

Most of what I found was about the harm done when victims go (or are forced) to attend therapy with their abuser. Basically this retraumatizes victims instead of helping in any way. Will that type of info help?

[11JB68]

Sorry no resources to offer. But it's interesting, my uPDm once said we shoulddo family therapy whenI was a teen and I flatly rejected the idea because I felt it would backfire, knowing nothing them about pd, but just a gut feeling

[Penny Lane]

Maybe a recommendation from DS's therapist that he continue solo therapy and specifically not do family therapy with dad?

[Whiteheron]

I don't have any sources, sorry but I did try to research therapy options before deciding to divorce my uPDex.

Most of what I found was about the harm done when victims go (or are forced) to attend therapy with their abuser. Basically this retraumatizes victims instead of helping in any way. Will that type of info help?

Yes, I think that would help. Thank you!

[Whiteheron]

So "family therapy" is being proposed as a way to "repair" the relationship between stbx and DS16. It was proposed years ago, after stbx got ahold of some unflattering medical records from DS's doc. It was rejected by DS and his T at the time. Now, it's being proposed again as a way though this mess we find ourselves in today. I have a very bad feeling about all of this. I think it will greatly harm DS, yet I still want DS to be able to have a relationship with his dad. DS's T believes therapy with his dad would, at this time, cause DS great anxiety.

But I think we are at the point where the court doesn't know what to do, so they keep pushing the idea. I want to arm my L with as much information from reputable sources as I can, so she can argue for what's best for DS, and she can have a frank conversation with the GAL.

I will definitely ask my L to put into any agreement that the T be versed with high-conflict/trauma/abuse.

DS will continue individual T. They are looking for a way for stbx to regain visitation with DS. This appears to be the only option they can come up with. If DS flat out refuses, then I don't know what they will decide to do.

[Penny Lane]

Could you shift the focus to "stbx will work with DS's current therapist on any recommendations"? You could make the case that DS is making great progress in therapy and the person he's been with all along would be in the best position to decide what stbx needs to do in order to repair the relationship??? Or at the very least, write the rules in such a way that DS doesn't have to attend therapy at the same time as his dad, at least not at first, that they would just see the same person and work on the recommendations. I think if you HAVE to do this the key to whether it's annoying or terrible will be in how it's written, so maybe your L can write some proposed language.

I don't know. I get where they're coming from, but this seems like an inadequate and unhelpful response to the abuse.

[Stepping lightly]

oh, what a hot mess! 

IMO, Family therapy is a really bad idea.  It's just too stressful, and it gives way too much power to the abuser to manipulate the situation or made the other family members uncomfortable.  I feel like Family Therapy is the PD dream, and the non-PD nightmare.  BM has tried to force us into that scenario for years, it's not helpful, especially if the T isn't up for it.  She has zero ability to communicate with consideration in email or any other time, it just gives her a forum to further punish us.  I know some PDs behave in front of professionals, not ours....she emailed the judge after a hearing and raged insults at DH's attorney (who is very well respected by the Judge).

I think the best bet is for STBX to start therapy.  Maybe there can be a therapist that sees both DS and stbx, but separately.  This should absolutely NOT be DS's current T, whom I would think he should still continue to see.  He needs to have the safety/confidence that he can talk to his T and that his T isn't talking to stbx the next day. 

[athene1399]

Maybe bring up that DS has been terrified to even talk to his own T and the GAL about what is going on with stbx due to the fear of "what if dad finds out what I said?", so how do they expect him to talk in front of him? I would push for stbx to get stabilized emotionally in his own T sessions, then once that T feels family therapy is okay, revisit the idea then and only if DS's T and stbx's T agree that family therapy could work.

I will definitely ask my L to put into any agreement that the T be versed with high-conflict/trauma/abuse.

For sure.

I've only heard about couples therapy being not a good idea with an abuser, I haven't heard the same things about family therapy. I don't think enough research has been done on family therapy and an abusive parent IMO. Most of the family therapy articles focused on younger kids and behavioral coaching of the parent. I tried finding articles, but didn't find much. I saw one on if the parent has BPD. They suggested individual therapy for the parent, then once they are stabilized to do family.  They said basically to get the PD parent therapy to deal with his/her own childhood issues, then bring the family in once things improve (that was the way I understood it anyway). I couldn't remember what you stbx was diagnosed with, so not sure if this is helpful.

I was in class for Family Therapy over the summer (I'm working on my Masters in Social Work), but unfortunately the instructor was vague about this when someone asked. They actually asked "couples therapy is not good if a spouse is abusive, what about family therapy?". I honestly don't think there's a lot of research in this area yet. Most of it focuses on high risk factors such as poverty, but not PDs. But my gut would say it's probably not a good idea. Maybe have your L keep your reasons simple: DS isn't comfortable saying anything if he thinks it will get back to stbx. Maybe have stbx's T and DS's T communicate and collaborate, but that's it for now. Even that may  make DS uncomfortable.

Can DS's T weigh in?

[Whiteheron]

DS's T has had her say about it. She was supposed to pick a therapist she thought would be able to help. Problem is, she's solo and doesn't know too many who would be a good fit. She also sees stbx for what he is and recognizes that T with his dad is not a good idea.

I did send an email to my L that asked for any potential T to specialize in trauma/high conflict/abuse. I let her know that the consensus is that therapy with an abuser would likely re-traumatize DS and that the abuse could actually escalate. I referred her to the Domestic Violence Hotline's website, which spells it all out (for partners, not for kids, but the underlying patterns are the same). I also suggested that stbx and DS initially attend individually so that the potential counselor could get to know them before they're thrown into counseling together. I also told her that it's strongly recommended that the abuser engage in intensive therapy first before any attempts at family therapy are made. I emphasized that family therapy only works if both parties feel responsible and are willing to work on repairing the relationship, reminding her that stbx refuses to take any responsibility for any of this. Hopefully I gave my L enough so that she understands and can relay this to the GAL.

They all know that the kids are afraid to speak up against stbx. They saw what happened when DS did finally speak up. They get it. What they're going to do remains to be seen. The main focus right now seems to be to appease stbx so he doesn't force a trial. I say bring it. (not really, but he's the one who is clearly having 'issues' while I remain steady and keeping my focus on what's best for the kids).

[Penny Lane]

That's great, I hope the GAL gets it.

I say bring it.

Sometimes the easiest way out is through! If he won't acknowledge how badly he screwed up his relationship with his kids, he's not going to be amenable to severe restrictions because of it. Maybe he needs a judge to put those restrictions on for him. Or, maybe if a trial is looming he would come to the table.

[Arkhangelsk]

Good work, White Heron. 

I would monitor it closely.  I had some court ordered therapy with my ex that was profoundly damaging for me before I got the judge to move us to someone who understood high conflict cases.  In your shoes I would be ready to get back in from of the GAL or judge with any evidence that any family therapy they order is hurting your child.

Hugs.

[hhaw]

I'd be tempted to have PD attend the occassional therapy session with DS16, rather than bring another unknown T into the mix.  Lordy... what a mess if that T is snowed by the T, and testifies, etc. 

Is DS16's T able and willing to see PD during sessions with DS16?  She at least understands what DS is dealing with, and can help DS hold his own, while limiting any harm the PD can do through a potential "expert" witness scenario where everything is going wrong.

I'd be focused on limiting harm, and keeping tight control on possible chaos manufacture by the PD.

[athene1399]

I will be keeping you guys in my thoughts. I just can't believe they are proposing family therapy after everything that happened. I am sorry.

[atticusfinch]

I read from a parental alienation expert that family therapy is the best/only way to treat kids who have a PD parent... her theory is that triangulation is a big part of a relationship with a PD, and therefore a therapist must treat the whole family in order to essentially heal the triangulation taking place (have you read about the Karpman Drama Triangle-- very interesting). Essentially, if I remember right, in the Karpman Drama Triangle, it's not only the PD who benefits from triangulation, but it also allows the co-dependent significant other to avoid dealing with his/her issues because he/she is locked in a perpetual rescuer/victim cycle with the perpetrator and the other triangulated parties (kids in this case). Anyway, this therapist's idea was that it sends the wrong message to kids to just send them to 1-1 therapy when the problem doesn't originate with the child to begin with-- it's originating with the unhealthy triangulation. And therefore can only be treated effectively by treating the family as a whole (ironically, it's the PD who usually avoids therapy and they're the ones who need it most?).

While I can see where she's coming from, I think my biggest concern with family therapy would be... triangulation? I could see my ex trying to manipulate the therapist to take his side... so I think you'd need a really adept family therapist. 

[Arkhangelsk]

I think that is right, Atticus.  The problem is finding a therapist talented and knowledgeable enough to do this.  And then one who even wants to.  I have found experts who literally said to me - this kind of case is just to exhausting for me to take on.

[Whiteheron]

While I can see where she's coming from, I think my biggest concern with family therapy would be... triangulation? I could see my ex trying to manipulate the therapist to take his side... so I think you'd need a really adept family therapist.

This is my fear. DS can't take much more emotional abuse. If this happens...I just don't know.
stbx tried this in joint T with me. Not during the sessions, but a day or so afterwards his recollection would be completely different. Or he would tell me he'd had a conversation with the T separately and she said I need to x, y, z. Which made zero sense. I told him that if T wanted me to x, y, z, then she could call me and explain why (never happened). He would also tell me he was doing what he needed to do for the marriage (going to T and taking his meds), the rest was up to me. I can imagine something along those lines with DS.

DS's T does not want to bring stbx into her office - she has just gotten back to the point where DS is comfortable opening up and views her office as a safe space. She doesn't want to lose that.

oh, and atticus - it wouldn't be the entire family, just stbx and DS.

I'm sure no one wants to touch this heaping pile of dung. It was hard enough to find a qualified T that would see DS on his own!

Everything is still up in the air. GAL spoke with kids again late last week. Not sure what came out of that, but there is an L meeting with the judge this week. At this point, playing it day by day.

[Whiteheron]

the judge has ordered DS to do therapy with his abusive dad. it's either that or go back to the original custody schedule. my L told me the courts are all about reconciling families. they just don't get it. apparently 16 isn't old enough to have a say in what's best (DS said no to the therapy).

[Arkhangelsk]

I am thinking about the little survival checklist I made for myself when I used to be forced to go with my ex. 

Maybe you could work with your son to build a little tool.  The worst, for me, were these long winded rants my ex would go on.  So many lies and accusations with no pause.  It would have been madness to engage.  But was hard to listen to. 

When I would start to feel overwhelmed, I would look at the therapist and say, "These things are not true and it hurts to sit here while you let him go on and on."  But I would not say anything further or dig into refuting the crazy.