MIL has been stalking us for the last year

[candy]

I took some weeks off the boards, focused on my health and inner work, just living with my FOC and I have been loving it. DH and I both made real progress in individual therapy.

And then all of a sudden NMIL calls DH after one and a half year of silent treatment, maybe out of a sentimental mood she is in, maybe she didn't get her way with GC-BIL's spouse, and tells DH she wants to catch up.

DH remembers her that we won't be pretending NMIL's and nFIL's abusive behavior and their ignorance of our boundaries never happened, he explained briefly that there's a lot to talk about prior to the IL's having contact with DD or DW (me) again. On the plus side I really see some actual improvement concerning DH and his communication with NMIL.

Her answer was the usual - increasing the psychological pressure onto DH by trying to nail him on an appointment. DH did not take the bait. But he did answer the phone. He hadn't for more than a year. Minus side it is.

And then NMIL drops the bomb: she has been attending a weight loss programme in our city, once a week, for one year. She tells DH the location and it is within walking distance from where we live. In order to get from where MIL lives to that programme's location, you can easily go past our home, twice.

I am freaking out over this. I mean WHAT? The woman lives approximately 100 miles away from where we live, in another city, and the programme she went to is available in several locations near to her home and in the surrounding cities. But she chose to take the one and a half hour drive, one way, to my and DH's city once a week and participated in some sort of weight loss programme 0.5 miles from our home. Who does this?

I am happy for her that she is finally addressing one of her physical health issues and is fighting her obesity. But I cannot help it, what I am understanding here is the following:

,,My control never ends. If I want to, I can watch you and your wife and kid anytime I want." And what's more I understand: ,,I don't respect your distance."
If DH says ,,no", her reason to be in our city happens to be just a health programme she's attending. ,,You cannot be mad at me for wanting to loose weight!"

Despite that chosen programme she has zero connections to our city. What the heck is she telling herself? That she still has a relationship with DH or DD because she ,,sees" us once a week? There must be a word for this kind of imaginary relationship she seems to think to have with her son or her grandchild. If DH was an exBF to her, I'd call it erotomania. This is very creepy and alarming behavior to me.

Has she been watching us? I have felt like someone was watching us sometimes... but I told myself I was crazy for thinking stuff like that. It turns out I wasn't.

To my mind this clearly fits the criteria of stalking. I feel overwhelmed by anxiety right now. I have had an PD-Ex stalking me, so, yes, I might have deja-vues that mix things up in my thoughts. I feel deeply unsettled by that woman who has gone physical with me once in the past and who has invaded my and my child's and my DH's safe space in the past year. Although she hasn't contacted us directly since today, knowing that she had the opportunity to watch us every week feels like an invasion to me. Today I found myself closing the curtains to every room of our home that faces the street. I watched every car twice. This is not who I am. I lost my cool to a mind battle.

The fact she's telling DH after the programme has ended, tells me she knew herself that her choice of location was boundary breaking. It says ,,Look, I am smarter than you. I will always find a way to be close to you and you can do nothing about it. I don't need your consent. I control you. I control everything."

We are not living in a small city. There are 2 million people living here, the surrounding area is densely populated too. No way that her doing a programme within walking distance to our home is a coincidence. DH mentioned it to her. She told him she wasn't aware how close it was. DH believed her.

DH said I was overthinking this. Sigh, no. Hell, no! Please let a professional tell him that this is unhealthy and alarming behavior. He cannot hear it if I am the one telling him.

This is no me-problem. This is a we-problem. This is NMIL invading our family life. What does she know about our daily routines by watching us? Has she followed us around? Does she know at which daycare I drop DD off? Oh my, I'll have to talk to DD's educators about this.

Well, I am freaking out, I know.  I am scared. I think she is a potentially dangerous person. She has always been competitive towards me and as I have not applied for the role of mother of DH, I used to think that she did not behave like a parent towards her son, DH, but more like an insanely jealous ex-partner. Her stalking validates my initial assessment, that is for sure.

The effort and time (about 3 hours in the car, time at the programme, time for observation) she has put into being close to DH (or DD or both) is baffling me. I just thought she was neglecting, too lazy and stubborn to take others' perspective. But now I think we are dealing with delusions and I am really worried what comes next.

[bloomie]

candy - this is really disconcerting and rightfully disturbing. It is a type of psychological harassment. Very sly and most destructive to let you know after the fact she has been in your city for at least one day for a year. I hate this for you and your family.

What will help you right now? Installing a camera system (if you haven't already)? Letting the admins at your DD's preschool know your mil is not authorized to be on the property is a good and important step.

In many ways, this is why no contact is truly no contact. If someone has become violent with us and has posed themselves as harmful to this degree to our family to the point we go NC with them, reengaging - picking up the phone for example, when we have no intention of having a relationship with them can be very problematic and provide a great big dose of supply to a PD person who is not giving up what they seem to feel entitled to... any family member they have turned their obsession and focus to.

One way that my own DH and I have been able to find common ground on something like this with a uPDsil who also has positioned herself as a jilted ex and nemesis - competing for the love and affection of my DH - is to strive above all else to be consistent in the messages we give.

My own DH has certain responsibilities that require a small amount of contact with uPDsil who has attempted over the years to invade every aspect of our lives - who has gone as far as copied keys to our home and come into it when we are gone and blatantly admitted she went through all of our belongings, befriended our friends she has no commonality to/with, shown up at gatherings in our home uninvited and brazenly announced to the crowd she wasn't invited, but here she is... you get the picture because believe me this is just the tip of the iceberg. Just everywhere but nowhere all at the same time. 

With one so persistent and intrusive and dangerous as this we have had to shut down every single avenue of contact and as much info about our lives as we possibly can. The only way in is through my DH and if the contact is not something absolutely necessary he does not respond to her. If he has to respond or contact he uses a system that includes myself and 2 other people so that every contact is business and there is not a hint of "intimate"  contact between the two of them.

It has been a long road, but this has really helped to starve this ravenous person of any supply and even the smallest breadcrumb of control and entry into our lives.

I don't know if the best time to read through this book is right now when you are triggered to the max, but Gavin DeBecker, in his book The Gift of Fear, suggests not ignoring your instincts when they are screaming like this and also goes on to describe how any engagement can feed the cycle. It might be something your DH would be willing to read and think through and talk with your T about - feeding the cycle.

A quote from DeBecker's book:
"Only human beings can look directly at something, have all the information they need to make an accurate prediction, perhaps even momentarily make the accurate prediction, and then say that it isn't so."
― Gavin de Becker, The Gift of Fear: Survival Signals That Protect Us from Violence

and he also says this:
"You have the gift of a brilliant internal guardian that stands ready to warn you of hazards and guide you through risky situations."

Deep breath, a cup of tea, a snuggle with your little one and then regroup and reinforce the moat around your castle with alligators dear candy.

[gettingstronger1]

Candy,
I am sorry you are having to deal with your MIL stalking you and your family.  It does definitely sound like stalking, and it does sound frightening especially since you have kids.  If I were you I would start documenting everything, and you are right you do need to talk to your children's school. I am not sure what you can do to help your husband see the the seriousness of your mil's behavior, but that is going to be an important task.  The best thing to do with your MIL is to continue NC because any contact is rewarding to her and the stalking and inappropriate behavior will continue. 

[candy]

Thank you both very, very much. I am glad you don't think I may be overreacting in classifying this as stalking.

I talked with the staff at DD's daycare. They are informed and will keep their eyes open. Whoever hesitates to go kind of public about the limited level of contact they have with a PD family member, I'd like to share that it went surprisingly smooth. The staff was really sympathetic.

One caretaker told me that a woman that fits my MIL's description has followed the group to the playground a couple of times 
The daycare workers didn't want to cause a false alarm by informing the parents. It has happened just too often to go unrecognized. As the woman did not talk to / interact with the kids, they agreed on wait and see. If it happens again, they'll notify me immediately.

I haven't had the chance to tell DH about NMIL watching DD's daycare. I assume it may change his mind.

I am not sure whether NMIL is obsessed with DH, DD or both. At the end it probably doesn't matter as it is unhealthy one way or another. For DD I have to be a human shield though.

DH follows my wish to not give personal information respectively any information about me to the IL's. I will ask him to extend this no information policy to DD.

[candy]

Coming back to your thoughtful replies that validated my concern and gave me a lot of ideas and directions to think further.

"Only human beings can look directly at something, have all the information they need to make an accurate prediction, perhaps even momentarily make the accurate prediction, and then say that it isn't so."
― Gavin de Becker, The Gift of Fear: Survival Signals That Protect Us from Violence

Bloomie, you hit the bullseye with your quote!

One would think that it cannot be more obvious. DH's T is doing amazing work with him, I hope she can help him see how serious and wrong MIL's behavior is.

DH is as distant from his parents as he has never been before, in geographical terms, but on the emotional part he still has work to do.
NMIL calls, and despite his progress in T, DH takes her request to catch up and immediately forwards it to me. I answered that I won't as I have absolutely no reason to believe this could go well. I stated it once - that has been a very good advice I have read here: say it once and leave it like that - and DH did not try to talk me into changing my mind.

I could not agree more to what the both of you wrote:
NC has to be NC. I know there cannot be exceptions. The stalking is evidence for me that it was the right decision to go NC.

But what about DH?
I let my IL's ST slip into NC for me and DD. It did not make any sense to talk to NMIL and unFIL, and oh, we tried, we had tried so many times. For DH the ST was hurtful and something that had been imposed on him. It changed over time. He told his parents if they wanted to have contact to their only grandchild, DD, they would have to respect our parenting, follow our rules and they were never allowed to misbehave in front of our DD again. They belittled him, smeared us and NMIL offered to sweep everything under the rug. Nothing more. DH was sad, and then he was angry, sad again and he began to talk.

There have been a handful of occasions - a funeral, an anniversary, BIL's wedding and a medical hoover - that came with some contact. DH handled them. Despite saying ,,Hello" when entering a room, I kept being silent for the most part. Those were events in public with the leading part not being MIL or FIL; it was still very uncomfortable but I was ok to be there with DH.
I don't have a clue how I could have handled those events differently? Just stay at home? I did not want to hurt a third party, e.g. BIL's spouse, by not coming to their special days.

One thing really bothers me: If the spouses have different levels of contact, one NC and one VLC, how do you give consistent messages?

And if a NPD like my NMIL, who has no functioning whole object relations, experiences contact with DH, is she even capable of understanding DH and I as two separate human beings? Or do we have to form a unit, speak with one voice or both remain silent in order to show consistency?

[bloomie]

 

I talked with the staff at DD's daycare. They are informed and will keep their eyes open. Whoever hesitates to go kind of public about the limited level of contact they have with a PD family member, I'd like to share that it went surprisingly smooth. The staff was really sympathetic.

One caretaker told me that a woman that fits my MIL's description has followed the group to the playground a couple of times 
The daycare workers didn't want to cause a false alarm by informing the parents. It has happened just too often to go unrecognized. As the woman did not talk to / interact with the kids, they agreed on wait and see. If it happens again, they'll notify me immediately.

Oh boy! I am just so thankful you spoke up and didn't invalidate you own instincts and protective posture over your precious LO!!!  I am hoping they will immediately call the police if they see anyone "watching" and "following" the kids in the future.

I let my IL's ST slip into NC for me and DD. It did not make any sense to talk to NMIL and unFIL, and oh, we tried, we had tried so many times. For DH the ST was hurtful and something that had been imposed on him. It changed over time. He told his parents if they wanted to have contact to their only grandchild, DD, they would have to respect our parenting, follow our rules and they were never allowed to misbehave in front of our DD again. They belittled him, smeared us and NMIL offered to sweep everything under the rug. Nothing more. DH was sad, and then he was angry, sad again and he began to talk.

When you have shown a willingness to work through serious issues with family members and they are without any observable remorse -  and we have been in this exact spot - then for us anyway, the message from them was they will not respect our authority over our own lives and our homes and children and will not take responsibility for harmful behaviors.

Something that was really clarifying and helpful for us was to do some circles of intimacy work. The most important and vital connections we have must be prioritized and protected. Boundaries are essential around our lives and families, emotional energy, and resources. Period.

Taking a step back and making this about where in these circles of intimacy your mil lands... is she safe enough to let in close to your core relationships, or is an unrepentant and disrespectful person - any person - someone you allow in close enough to do harm to your core relationships?

"You are responsible to manage different levels of intimacy, responsibility, influence, and trust with people in your life. Likewise, you are responsible to honor the different levels of access and influence others allow you to have in their lives. These levels are absolutely righteous, healthy, normal, and good. It is supposed to be like this! It has to be like this. When we expect that we should all have equal access to one another, we are setting ourselves up to violate and be violated." Keep Your Love On, Danny Silk

A great resource (faith based, but the concept of keeping a loving position as we set boundaries and limits and so helpful) is this youtube vid by Danny Silk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3l3ST7z7ps&t=6s

There have been a handful of occasions - a funeral, an anniversary, BIL's wedding and a medical hoover - that came with some contact. DH handled them. Despite saying ,,Hello" when entering a room, I kept being silent for the most part. Those were events in public with the leading part not being MIL or FIL; it was still very uncomfortable but I was ok to be there with DH.
I don't have a clue how I could have handled those events differently? Just stay at home? I did not want to hurt a third party, e.g. BIL's spouse, by not coming to their special days.

Being NC or vNC or what I call weddings and funerals only contact with one one or two family members does not mean not attending family events. For us, it is part of setting consistent messages. We choose what we will attend and prioritize that and then we go together and we stick together and have a plan in place for how to exit quickly and get lost in the crowd if needed.

One thing really bothers me: If the spouses have different levels of contact, one NC and one VLC, how do you give consistent messages?

And if a NPD like my NMIL, who has no functioning whole object relations, experiences contact with DH, is she even capable of understanding DH and I as two separate human beings? Or do we have to form a unit, speak with one voice or both remain silent in order to show consistency?

We are united in our messaging and we are united in tone and the protections we hold over our personal and private info and family dynamic. We do not enter into intimate conversations and discussions with anyone who poses a threat to our core relationships. We do not give over precious time and emotional energy to anyone who has attempted to divide us and create discord in our marriage. We do not engage with provocateurs and stalkers.

One thing that Gavin DeBecker emphasizes in his work is that when we engage we enrage because we allow contact, but the aggressor (intrusive stalking obsessive type) doesn't get what they want from us. So, something to talk through with your DH and T.

As our moderator Starboard Song says so well: "Don't let people that do not love you come between you." (he says it better, but you get the idea) Hold onto each other and your FOC with all of your might and be willing to move those who are not safe out to the furthest level of intimacy if necessary. 

It is tricky at times and my DH's most problematic family members have fought it hard, but we are resolute.

My uPDmil wants more of my DH and me than we are able and willing to give. Her behaviors have made it so that it is not healthy or safe to stay in close intimate relationship with her. We cannot treat her the same way we would treat our children, grandchildren or other elder family members. We care about her, have compassion for her, never treat her with disrespect or dishonor, but we have learned to be careful and wise about the level of influence we give her in our lives and we will sadly never be able to trust her.

This is a bit of a mix of resources and thoughts for you. Your situation is unique and only you and your DH, along with wise in person council can know what is best for you. Take  what is helpful and leave the rest! And keep coming back... we've got ya!

[all4peace]

candy, what a disturbing story! Yes, I also agree that it sounds like stalking and highly unlikely that she'd choose to be in your space, so far away from her own home, for a reasonable reason.

I do hope that you've given the school employees a photo of her so that they know exactly who to look out for. I'm so sorry you're facing this.

[HotCocoa]

Just from my experience...I don't think she was attending any program for weight loss.  That is her excuse to be in the area and stalk you, your husband and child. 

[candy]

Well, that has been a lot to process. I thank you all for weighing in here - your input helped me through sleepless evenings and all those moments I wanted to yell at hubby fo not seeing the bigger picture.

HotCocoa, you may very well be right. She'll never commit herself to a story that doesn't hold a dozen of excuses for anything she does or doesn't.

I don't know what is wrong with sticking to the truth. If MIL said something like ,,I was hurt but wanted to be near you but could not admit to my previous behavior being out of line, so I watched you.", I would think what a sad life. I would actually feel for her. What has happened to her that she rather deprives herself of the relationship to her son and grandchild than admit to her wrongdoings just once? But I am emphasizing with the NPD, this is not going anywhere, especially since she hasn't admitted to anything.

When DH heard about MIL watching the daycare, he was out of his mind. Got mad at the staff for holding back the information, had a moment of being mad at me for being the truthteller. Finally he was mad at MIL. It finally sunk in.

In T we are trying to focus on the future. T is big on letting go of the past and be your better self now which has a potential to really bug me sometimes. But we are getting there 

Bloomie, thank you for mentioning Gavin DeBecker! Engagement is followed by enragement, that is so true. A broken NC is a form of intermittent reinforcement, I guess, it makes things worse.

Some days ago MIL sent an sugarcoated email to DH and BIL, inviting everyone over to MIL and FIL's new house. Everyone including DD and me and the new mother SIL and her newborn. Just a casual family gathering.

I guess she didn't get the reaction she has been longing for from her stalking object(s) and now she's up for another attempt to gather her domestic drama staff at her house.

What is the bigger picture here? The one DH still doesn't get? MIL won't stop unless we give her absolutely no reason to believe that we will engage in any way.   

DH showed the email to me, told me that SIL / BIL already accepted the invitation and asked how we were going to respond. That look on DH's face told me the little boy inside him doesn't want to make his mommy sad. MIL sent some nice words, how can we refuse her invitation?

Oh, boy? I want to hug the little boy and tell him it is not his fault his mommy is sad, that he is not responsible for her emotions.
And I want to punch the grown man for even considering taking his wife and kid to  a stalker. To someone who has proven to stamp down every boundary that others set.

So, here I am again, breathing in and out, venting about my stalking PDMIL online, hugging my FOC in real life and deferring the talk with DH to some point in the future after some good night's sleep.
Stay warm, safe and cozy everyone!