Hmmm not sure about my brother now

[p123]

Well had a chat with my brother last night.... Hmmmm.

He is the definition of a Flying Monkey. His attitude is "I'm not letting my elderly Dad get a taxi - he looked after  us when we were kids so its our turn now".

First thing I though, "Is the Pope? - why can't he get a taxi?"

Thinking about its been easy for him. Its easy to sit on you're high horse, when you're sending your wife (who doesnt work) to do you're bidding when you're in work. Hes got used to this. Sounds very much like all was well and his new wife has had enough now.

Of course, I must admit I don't see how someone who has pretty much moved on and abandoned his 3 previous kids can claim to have a conscience. You won't let you're Dad get a taxi but you tell you're ex you're too busy to see you're own kids? Weird.

[nanotech]

 He's trying to press your guilt buttons.
Taxi is roughing it?
Taxi is  tantamount to neglect?
Nope.
On the other hand.....(!) your dad is so lucky that he's financially well able to afford it. Plenty of pensioners aren't.  Your dad has choices available.
I've told my dad this when he's bemoaned the cost of taxis to me.
Plus I've just found out I'm 38 miles away from him, not 25-30 as I previously thought.
It's over an hour whatever time I drive.
Sigh. Try telling my siblings that.
Doesn't your brother see the irony of praising your dad for looking after you both as kids, when he doesn't do this at all for his own children?
They just have no self awareness at all.

[p123]

He's trying to press your guilt buttons.
Taxi is roughing it?
Taxi is  tantamount to neglect?
Nope.
On the other hand.....(!) your dad is so lucky that he's financially well able to afford it. Plenty of pensioners aren't.  Your dad has choices available.
I've told my dad this when he's bemoaned the cost of taxis to me.
Plus I've just found out I'm 38 miles away from him, not 25-30 as I previously thought.
It's over an hour whatever time I drive.
Sigh. Try telling my siblings that.
Doesn't your brother see the irony of praising your dad for looking after you both as kids, when he doesn't do this at all for his own children?
They just have no self awareness at all.

Dad has got a "thing" about taxis. "Not meant for working class people - the likes of you and me" What?
Also, its a test to prove that you will do something for him. No shortcuts it the way he wants or not at all. He NEVER agrees to an easier way to achieve the same result.

Wow 38 miles is a long way. I've just checked mine -21 miles 31 mins (its motorway mostly). Best thing is he knows I've got a really bad back, I've been struggling to drive the 13 miles to work for weeks. So what does he say "Oh if  you're coming sunday we could go for a ride to xyz". Hang on, first off I said I wasn't coming Sunday and, second, do you really think I want to drive 21 miles to you, probably 50-60 mile round trip with you peeing yourself in my car (this is another story), then 21 miles home? Aaaarghhhh!

My brother. Who knows how his head works. He justifies it to himself. Dad agrees with him.

This is their attitude - well the mother has the kids so the father can go to work. So if you split up, its unfortunate but the mother has the kids. Father then only gives them money if he can afford it - if he can't then they'll have to manage.

Brother had a big issue with the HMRC (like IRS) so of course Dad said he shouldnt pay his ex anything because he had to pay this. It was all brothers fault - he'd spent the tax money on alcohol.

The whenever the ex fight back/take him to court its her fault and she a b@tch.

Best one I ever heard from Dad which he applied to the situation where social services wanted him to take temporary custody that one time, and also recently when his other ex tried to get in touch because the kids wanted to see their Dad. His "speech" was "well they had the kids (the mothers), so they've got to get on with it. Your brother has got work to go to and he hasn't got time. And X (his new wife) might not want him having contact so he can't upset her".

When he said this I just looked at him with disgust to be honest.......... At that point I just thought "how on earth are you my father?"

[nanotech]

It's scary really, how they are.
Our son has a daughter whom he sees regularly, though she lives a good few hundred miles away.
I know that because my son is no longer with her mum, my dad doesn't rate this little girl very highly as a family member.
He never wants to see her. He sends her cards for her birthday, gets her name wrong. She has my son's surname, but my dad wrote the surname of her mum's older child's dad!
Accidental, or deliberate?    
He praises my son for his 'strong sense of duty'.
It's LOVE dad!
He's genuinely surprised I think, that he bothers at all, and yet MY worry  is always that my son doesn't see her every single day. I actually don't think he's doing enough!
She's just been here and she's back again at Christmas, all being well.
Sigh.
I want him to move nearer to her. ( another story)
I've a back condition. Arthritis in knees. It doesn't get taken seriously by FOO.
Dad;
'Oh, you want to visit? Good, you can change my bedsheets and vacuum under the bed!'

He won't get a cleaner in case they steal from him.
Look after your back. It is a big deal, they would just rather ignore it! 
I can't believe he peed in your car!

[p123]

It's scary really, how they are.
Our son has a daughter whom he sees regularly, though she lives a good few hundred miles away.
I know that because my son is no longer with her mum, my dad doesn't rate this little girl very highly as a family member.
He never wants to see her. He sends her cards for her birthday, gets her name wrong. She has my son's surname, but my dad wrote the surname of her mum's older child's dad!
Accidental, or deliberate?    
He praises my son for his 'strong sense of duty'.
It's LOVE dad!
He's genuinely surprised I think, that he bothers at all, and yet MY worry  is always that my son doesn't see her every single day. I actually don't think he's doing enough!
She's just been here and she's back again at Christmas, all being well.
Sigh.
I want him to move nearer to her. ( another story)
I've a back condition. Arthritis in knees. It doesn't get taken seriously by FOO.
Dad;
'Oh, you want to visit? Good, you can change my bedsheets and vacuum under the bed!'

He won't get a cleaner in case they steal from him.
Look after your back. It is a big deal, they would just rather ignore it! 
I can't believe he peed in your car!

Well it was a rental/hire car. PEEGATE I call the weekend. All because 1) He knew he had a problem but couldnt be bothered to see the doctor about it and 2) He got pads i.e. the cheap ones not the proper ones because they cost money. 3) He went away for an overnight stay with NO clothes apart from what he was wearing.

And also because he thought "it'llbe alright. Not sure if you read the full story but he wanted to check into the Hilton hotel soaking wet with pee "no-one will notice" - ummm. Wanted to not buy new clothes "I'll put them on radiator for an hour it'll be fine" ewww. Then going home "I wont buy the expensive pads because if I have an accident its just you and me in the car" i.e you can put up with me stinking of pee for 2 hours drive.

Of course, not even thinking of the car seats. I had to scrub them. They didnt notice when the hire car went back and I didnt own up. Im going to hell! Thinking of next person to use the car and sit in passenger seat thinking "does it smell of wee in here?"

[p123]

Well I didnt go Saturday as brother wanted. I was working anyway. Of course, he went and took Dad (another lie that he was working).

Expecting a message this week that the "ROTA" starts next Saturday and I'm it.

[nanotech]

Well done for sticking to your guns. It takes nerves of steel when every cell in our body is screaming compliance!
Stockholm syndrome, trauma bonding, cognitive dissonance, call
it what you will, it was and is, abusive behaviour.
Don't worry about the rental car. I'm sure they've had it before with kiddies and pets. You scrubbed it, and they routinely steam clean their cars.,
I did read the whole story. 
Not pleasant!
What is it about narcs that they love to try and embarrass their children in public, especially in nice hotels?

In my home town there has recently been a 'family party', arranged by for my dad, by other family narcs. Certain family scapegoats got totally love -bombed to attend, in order to be (fake)sympathised with over some recent events, then hugely devalued and discarded behind their backs ( or possibly to their faces once all the juicy details were revealed).
-Those  who are getting Out of the FOG weren't encouraged to attend/ were only invited indirectly.
As time goes on, the craziness gets more obvious.
Seemed a bit early for Christmas crackers and hats, but that's what they did, and on Remembrance Sunday to boot.
Glad me and mine didn't attend.

[p123]

Nano - this saturday is my turn on the rota apparently. Not happening. Not missing daughers swimming lesson and gymnatics lesson to drive 25 miles to put a bet on the horses for him. Thing is I'll have my daughter with me - and I guess its same in the US but minors are not even allowed in to the betting shop AT ALL. So not sure how he expects me to do it. I'll offer to place his bets using my betfair account but Im sure minimum is £2 (as opposed to 10p he bets per race in the betting shop)

I'm pretty sure Dad is well aware of what brother is doing but hes denying its anything to do with him. Yeh right.

[nanotech]

I can't believe he would ask you to do that, when you have quality time to spend with your daughter?
I'm glad you are keeping to your plans.
He seems to resent your daughter?
He seems to be competing with her?

I think this is why he appears  to favour your brother.
He actually doesn't.
In his view, your brother is just serving him better right now.
It looks like that might be changing, which is possibly why he's looking for supply from you.
Your brother wants you to take over supplying the narc attention today. 
Your brother neglects his children in favour of him. Your dad loves that. It benefits him- so he defends it to the hilt.
In return, your brother feels beautifully justified in his  blatantly irresponsible behaviour.
Nothing stronger than the approval of an NPD parent. When you're still in the fog, that is.
It's more powerful than anything else, even the view of society. 

It suits your dad fine that your bro doesn't see any of his children and instead, fusses over him.

To keep this supply going he continually tells your brother he's RIGHT not to see them.
A super- symbiotic relationship!

In order to be the blue- eyed boy, you have to ignore your children.
And your wife.
And of course, your self, your sense of self, which to him, shouldn't exist.

They see us as mere extensions of them. Any other humans in our life, unless they too begin to serve them with everything they have, are at best a nuisance, and are more often seen as an actual threat.

My dad's recently got more interested in my oldest. I've realised that he's  looking for her to replace me, in terms of supply. I've warned her, and luckily she's listened. ( She has a strong moral conscience,which he was proceeding to take advantage of). 

It's cliche, but it really IS all about them.

[p123]

I can't believe he would ask you to do that, when you have quality time to spend with your daughter?
I'm glad you are keeping to your plans.
He seems to resent your daughter?
He seems to be competing with her?

I think this is why he appears  to favour your brother.
He actually doesn't.
In his view, your brother is just serving him better right now.
It looks like that might be changing, which is possibly why he's looking for supply from you.
Your brother wants you to take over supplying the narc attention today. 
Your brother neglects his children in favour of him. Your dad loves that. It benefits him- so he defends it to the hilt.
In return, your brother feels beautifully justified in his  blatantly irresponsible behaviour.
Nothing stronger than the approval of an NPD parent. When you're still in the fog, that is.
It's more powerful than anything else, even the view of society. 

It suits your dad fine that your bro doesn't see any of his children and instead, fusses over him.

To keep this supply going he continually tells your brother he's RIGHT not to see them.
A super- symbiotic relationship!

In order to be the blue- eyed boy, you have to ignore your children.
And your wife.
And of course, your self, your sense of self, which to him, shouldn't exist.

They see us as mere extensions of them. Any other humans in our life, unless they too begin to serve them with everything they have, are at best a nuisance, and are more often seen as an actual threat.

My dad's recently got more interested in my oldest. I've realised that he's  looking for her to replace me, in terms of supply. I've warned her, and luckily she's listened. ( She has a strong moral conscience,which he was proceeding to take advantage of). 

It's cliche, but it really IS all about them.

Absolutely 100% spot on.

He doesnt bother with my kids AT ALL. He ignores them. Hes often telling me I should cancel xyz to see him. He even was visibly disappointed when my wife was pregnant last time.

I think you're right about brother too. And his kids. Imagine if he had kids too? Dad would be mortified. And you're Dads thing is you choosing him over anyone else.

Thing is it was easy for brother. He's send his wife to see Dad - she didnt work so it was no problem. They could see he had money. Then they got stuck with it. Now they realise its not as easy as they thought and they can see me getting it easy (they think).

So now Dad knows I'm not doing as much as he wants, and it appears brother now is trying to shift stuff onto me and Dad is afraid its all going to go. Hence his "I'll have to go into a care home" comments.

Of course, Dad also doesnt care if my wife gets upset at me. Perfect world Id get divorced and move in with him!

Thing is I warned brother this would happen a few years ago. I pointed how silly his demands were. But all I got was "hes old so we've got to look after him". So now hes under the spell that come hell or high water someone has to go to the betting shop on a saturday. And now hes sick of it too. Unlucky. You made your bed.

[p123]

Part of the problem is also hes 1000% absolutely obsessed with this and getting what he wants. Hes old and hes worried about things. 100% of his brain power is focused on this.

Which is why no-one else matters (like his grandchildren). Also, why he wont consider "different" options like home delivery of food - he wants to stick to the "safe" way.

[nanotech]

Sticking to controlling the  'ways' , that's how they retain their  control. It's a power tool.
They may ask for help, but it's always on their terms, so that it feels and looks like delegation.
My dad does this.
We offered to take him in holiday,  and he agreed..... as long as he controlled  the route  we took precisely, and chose  exactly where we stayed!
Well no dad, then that becomes YOUR holiday- it's just you're not paying!
The old must become more passive. They have to. Otherwise their children just become staff.
My dad actually called my hubby his 'staff' when he was cooking food for him one time. I wasn't fully Out of the FOG then but I pulled him up for that one!
He laughed.
Actually, we are worse off than staff.  Rest homes have rules they would have to follow.

[nanotech]

I think you have to work on getting him to move on ONE of his ways.  Just start with one thing. Maybe the shopping or the betting.
Hey, I'm not a gambler, but I bet on the Grand National online this year  ( won!) and sometimes they offer free bets. That might encourage him.
That driving 25 miles to put a bet on has GOT to change.
ITS HARD.
With  my dad, we wanted him to stop driving the 38 miles to us, staying for eight hours ( sometimes having a drink, only one, but he's 87) then driving home in the dark full of a big meal and tired.
A 76 mile round trip every 6 weeks.
I had to tell him he wasn't invited any more  if he drove himself.
We offered to pick him up. Dad was appalled at the very thought.
' I enjoy it. If I get taken ill at the wheel then so be it.'
He would rather die driving than give up driving.
I would let him carry on with this if it wasn't for the possibility that he could injure and kill other people!
I won't be driving when I'm 87!

Dads been very upset with me.
It means  I haven't seen him since June.
He's had his fun-  he hasn't invited me to his house, and when I've tried to arrange it he's put me off with a daft reason.
I think it's punishment!
I look horrendous to the rest of the siblings.
They have probably told family friends too, that I haven't seen him for months.
But hey, the sky hasn't fallen in.
In healthier and happier for it ( no negative talk)
And now after 5 months, he's agreed that we can pick him up and drop him off home later  Christmas Day.
It's a little bit of control.
Also, he's now stopped night driving altogether.
Once you decide not to care about what anyone thinks , it's very freeing. 😊

[p123]

I think you have to work on getting him to move on ONE of his ways.  Just start with one thing. Maybe the shopping or the betting.
Hey, I'm not a gambler, but I bet on the Grand National online this year  ( won!) and sometimes they offer free bets. That might encourage him.
That driving 25 miles to put a bet on has GOT to change.
ITS HARD.
With  my dad, we wanted him to stop driving the 38 miles to us, staying for eight hours ( sometimes having a drink, only one, but he's 87) then driving home in the dark full of a big meal and tired.
A 76 mile round trip every 6 weeks.
I had to tell him he wasn't invited any more  if he drove himself.
We offered to pick him up. Dad was appalled at the very thought.
' I enjoy it. If I get taken ill at the wheel then so be it.'
He would rather die driving than give up driving.
I would let him carry on with this if it wasn't for the possibility that he could injure and kill other people!
I won't be driving when I'm 87!

Dads been very upset with me.
It means  I haven't seen him since June.
He's had his fun-  he hasn't invited me to his house, and when I've tried to arrange it he's put me off with a daft reason.
I think it's punishment!
I look horrendous to the rest of the siblings.
They have probably told family friends too, that I haven't seen him for months.
But hey, the sky hasn't fallen in.
In healthier and happier for it ( no negative talk)
And now after 5 months, he's agreed that we can pick him up and drop him off home later  Christmas Day.
It's a little bit of control.
Also, he's now stopped night driving altogether.
Once you decide not to care about what anyone thinks , it's very freeing. 😊

Well Ive never done the bet for him on a Saturday. Brother who lives a mile away started it, now  hes sick of even doing that and wants me roped in too (you started it!)

With you, I can see you're point but it 2x 76 mile trips for you now.....

Dad never learned to drive. Easier to let someone else do it. Thats him to a tee.

[p123]

Thing is my works pretty much 60% of Saturdays. So I'd have my 6 year old with me.

Nano - you're in the uk?

6 year olds are not allowed in betting shops. No exception. They wouldn't even let me run in and plonk her on a chair while I paid.

So not sure how brother and Dad are planning that one. I can hardly leave her outside on the pavement.
And not leaving her with Dad - I'd be concerned leaving him to look after a hamster let alone a 6 year old for 30 mins while I visit the betting shop.

[nanotech]

Haha to the hamster comment! Yes in UK
Yes we're doing a lot of driving Christmas Day. NBro has had him the last few years and we've seen him before or after Christmas Day.
The other siblings go away or one will see him but she won't cook him a meal.
NBro used to take him to HIS in-laws for dinner, so he and wife didn't cook for him either. He doesn't like Nbro's in-laws ( raging narcs and it's competition!).
NBro has fallen out with them this year too.
Look,  I'm aware it's not great for my hubby-,a lot of driving on Christmas Day.
Hubby is gonna have a nap between journeys.
We will see our kids Boxing Day.
It's just otherwise he would be totally on his own,(with maybe youngest sister popping in for a cuppa tea)  and I can't seem to be ok with that.
It's so awkward. He doesn't like staying over. That would be a bit of a nightmare.
Your dad never learned to drive? That's interesting. 
My dad has used his driving as a power tool for control. As a teen I stopped asking him for a lift even occasionally, due to the strings attached.
My sisters also don't drive. One of them used to make chauffeur demands on me. This would extend to her own kids and grandkids. Whatever the situation, driving or not, they become toxic over it.

[p123]

Haha to the hamster comment! Yes in UK
Yes we're doing a lot of driving Christmas Day. NBro has had him the last few years and we've seen him before or after Christmas Day.
The other siblings go away or one will see him but she won't cook him a meal.
NBro used to take him to HIS in-laws for dinner, so he and wife didn't cook for him either. He doesn't like Nbro's in-laws ( raging narcs and it's competition!).
NBro has fallen out with them this year too.
Look,  I'm aware it's not great for my hubby-,a lot of driving on Christmas Day.
Hubby is gonna have a nap between journeys.
We will see our kids Boxing Day.
It's just otherwise he would be totally on his own,(with maybe youngest sister popping in for a cuppa tea)  and I can't seem to be ok with that.
It's so awkward. He doesn't like staying over. That would be a bit of a nightmare.
Your dad never learned to drive? That's interesting. 
My dad has used his driving as a power tool for control. As a teen I stopped asking him for a lift even occasionally, due to the strings attached.
My sisters also don't drive. One of them used to make chauffeur demands on me. This would extend to her own kids and grandkids. Whatever the situation, driving or not, they become toxic over it.

Ah right. I guess you're kids are grown up and older?

With me it was always hassle. At the moment, I've got a teenage son 16 (whos got Aspergers which causes problems) and 6 year old little girl whos full of beans.
We did it EVERY year for about 15 years until two years ago. It was a nightmare from start to finish. He'd demand a pick up time, he'd get to our house and play up that he was really ill, he'd make inappropriate comments, he'd comment on things that were none of his business (he'd often say "bloody spoilt these kids - what do you want to buy them so much for!"). To be honest, wife put up with him but we'd both breathe a sigh of relief when he went.

Two years ago he was worse. At ours moaned he was ill, pretended he couldn't walk or couldn't see anything (he regularly walks to town 1/2 mile). Ignored kids COMPLETELY. It was awful. Stuffed down a massive dinner though. Worse when I got him home. Said he needed an ambulance and he couldnt go on etc. I spent hours talking to him.

By time I got home (late!) my youngest was upset because Daddy hadnt played with her all day. Wife went nuts. Enough was enough now.

Last year we had him boxing day. Or I did. Wife WAS working - deliberately. He went to my brothers and moaned a lot apparently.

This year, brother is playing the "booked a holiday over xmas day" card. Done this before just in case I ask him. Nice eh? In the past, the holiday has been cancelled mysteriously once Dad is sorted to come to mine. Prob same this year - there is no booked holiday.

So hes NOT coming Xmas Day - I will offer Boxing Day. Whether my brother will fold and give in for Xmas Day who knows.
I have a ready made excuse - wife is working and we're not doing xmas dinner. Shes a nurse.
Shes IS working boxing day but he can come if he wants - just me and him :-) (hoping he'll see sense and we can go to a restaurant or something!)

Will he be on his own Xmas Day? Possibly he will. Will I feel guilty? Nope not at all. Its him or my family at this point and hes carried on for years like its all about him.
He'll think its so unfair and that hes done nothing of course.

I've heard the phrase "Its just one day" about 20 times the last few months. When he wants me to do something and cancel whatever my kids want to do. He likes doing that - hes got to be no 1. Guess what I'm going to say when I say "sorry no xmas day"????

Driving. Could never be bothered to learn. That's Dad. Why bother when someone else can do it for you? Always take the easy option or the one where you don't have to think about it. This extends to MANY things with Dad.

[WomanInterrupted]

You wrote:  (hoping he'll see sense and we can go to a restaurant or something!)

Don't hope - make that your offer.   You can do lunch or tea at a restaurant you choose, that's close to his house - and that's it.   If he doesn't like it, you don't visit.  Those are his options - take it or leave it. 

BTW - if he chooses to go, don't go in when you drop him back home.  Stay in the car and leave when he's a safe distance away. 

You wrote: He'll think its so unfair and that hes done nothing of course.

So?  None of us were promised a fair life - if we were, we wouldn't be posting here! 

Your dad will survive being alone at Christmas.  He won't be the first or last person to do so. 

I'd block his number for the day, too.  But if you don't, and he has an "emergency" - advise him to call for an ambulance.  If he won't, do it FOR him - and stay home.  You'll only be in the way. 

If your dad threatens self-harm, hang up immediately and call an ambulance - your dad can explain to them that he didn't mean it. 

Block his number after that - if he needs a ride home from the hospital, he'll have to figure it out without you. 

If he's at the hospital on Christmas, I'd pull the plug on a Boxing Day visit, since he should be recuperating. 

You wrote: I've heard the phrase "Its just one day" about 20 times the last few months.

Stock responses:  "I can't do it."  "That's not possible."  "It will have to wait."   

If asked why?

"Because I just told you I can't.  You'll have to figure out something else.  I have to go.  Goodbye." 

IMO, when they start questioning you about why, it really is time to end the conversation.   

If your dad mentions coming for Christmas - more like instructs you on what time to pick him up - take a *deep* breath and say, "Dad, that's not going to work.  We have too much going on.  I'm sure you'll be fine by yourself." 

Bonus points if you throw, "It's just one day" back at him. 

Once you lay down the No Christmas Day Visit boundary, be prepared for him to challenge you endlessly - like toddler. 

Those were the kinds  of responses I'd give, when challenged.  If somebody is going to act like a toddler, that's *exactly* how I'm going to talk to them.   

Things like, "Drop it."  "That's not going to work."  "I said no."  "This topic is closed for discussion - do NOT bring it up again."  "Asked and answered."  - and the all-important, "Because I said so." 

Your dad is never going to think of anybody but himself, he's never going to change, and he's never going to learn - but you HAVE changed and learned, and you realize you don't have to put up with him trying to monopolize your time.

Your dad isn't going to like any of this, but too bad.  He doesn't get a say in how you and your FOC live your lives or spend your time.  He may *think* he does - but you will prove otherwise through your boundaries and actions.   

[p123]

Well the Xmas day talk. He brought it up and I though "arrgh Im not ready". He actually said its OK I dont mind if you're busy xmas day,

I'm very wary to be honest. Hes either up to something or hes seen the war breaking out between brother and I and hes dropped the xmas day idea. Lose the battle win the war sort of thing....

[nanotech]

You can't change them, that's for sure, but your changed approach to him may be having an impact, and may  have made him try a softly softly approach- rather than the head on antler locking that he's done in the past.

My dad mostly favours waifing these days. Watch out for this.