remaining NC?

[Unknown]

Hello Foggers,

requesting feedback. Have been NC with my UBPDm and UNarc sister (not sure WHAT she is exactly) since last November.
A flying monkey came along this week and asked if I would allow our 3 kids to do the annual family photo, basically a photo with UBPDm with all of her 11 grandkids, so everyone on social media  can ooooh and aaaah over what a "fine family" we have. Photos are so deceptive, aren't they?
The perfect deception for all her admirers. My take on it is, 1. why would I submit to this "family photo" when I haven't spoken to my mom and sister in nearly an entire year?? What makes them think that makes any sense??? 2. I don't feel the need to respond to the text from the flying monkey because I feel that will cause more JADE and it's none of her business why I chose NC. I know she has heard their version but has not had the guts to ask me because she knows I do not talk. (my family is rampant with gossip, backstabbing, gaslighting etc) and I do not / choose not to engage- a  very long and hard lesson even though provoked- but I have learned not to. )
However, there is a part of me that wants to say "THIS IS NOT A GAME. I AM NOT PLAYING CHICKEN! IT IS NOT THE SILENT TREATMENT!" but I know the flying monkey  , nor anyone else, would believe me. They have made up my mind- that I am "the bad guy" and it's all on me.
Truth is, I simply have refused to allow people into my life-,  whom I do not trust. That's it. That's the bottom line.
They don't get it and never will - and they want to go back to ''their normal'' of me toeing the line as I always did.
The problem is: there is a part of me that has doubt. There is a part of me that wonders "What if I just do what they want so they'd get off my back? What would the harm be in letting my (minor age) kids go for the photo shoot? (I wouldn't go). I would send DH but  Of course, the other part of me vehemently objects for rational. legit reasons - the very ones that caused me to go NC.... However, I feel the strong pull to give in. Guilt?
The holidays are approaching perhaps that's why? I don't miss them. Really I don't. The truth is, I have had anxiety attacks every since flying monkey came along about this... I have felt better since going NC all those months ago!
When I went NC, it had no time frame. I just did it I sometimes worry, is this forever?? It's not like I miss my  mom, but it's more wistful, it's more that I don't want to HURT her. I also worry about the long term effects of NC since she is aging, and sometimes worry if she is in a ditch somewhere. I don't want that. I don't want any harm to befall her. I don't want TO harm her, I want all good. I simply don't want her to be in my life. I want to be left the F alone. These conflicting emotions pull and yank on me and I am not sure what to do .
I told the flying monkey the first thing that came out of my mouth which was no we have a bball game all day on X day, but the truth is, that was an excuse. She comes back with "is there a better day that works for you?' I have not responded.
(I feel like, no! moron! Have  you not realized we haven't spoken to my mother/sister in a year?) I am 100% she is aware of this.
But I chose not to engage.
Should I just say No. and leave it at that? I don't want to ignore her as she is not NC with us, but I don't want to engage with her either,
(in this).
My family is and always was toxic- and the worst kind- they don't even know they are dysfunctional.
I know in my heart, they will never change. I do not expect it. I know I have 2 choices. either
going back VLLLLLLC (and suffering even those consequences) or remain NC.) There is no reconciliation and there never will be because my mother and sister will never ever admit they do anything wrong. So, I accept that.
I have noticed that there has been fallout from my NC - with my nieces and nephews- they have drank from the poisoned well and now do not reach out/call/text anymore. They are adults, so although I am hurt, I feel adults should be adult enough to critically think before coming to conclusions. However, it seems they have taken sides already. No surprise there. For instance, my one niece is in her mid 20's. Old enough to know a relationship goes (or should go) 2 ways. Every time we got together, conversations were always about her. Just her. Never asked about ME. how am I? How is my new job? What do I even do? When I mentioned this to her- that not one person ( in her FOO) in the last 7 months has even bothered asking what I am doing now or how I am, she didn't know what to say. She just looked shocked like she wasn't expecting the new and improved Unknown, speaking up for herself. She also didn't bother wishing me a happy birthday, even though I sent her a card which is a month after mine, and texted her on her bday,  and she hasn't spoken to me for 3 more months since, which brings us to present day. Weird, huh? I feel like she's mad at me because we have chosen NC with the other 2.
It hurts, but she's an adult and can make her own choices. Sorry, I digressed with that last part, but now the whole fam expects us to just show up and smile all happy for "family photos"??? What kind of crap is that??
Thanks for reading.

[Tried2bZen]

You wrote " there is a part of me that has doubt." I feel there is a chance we would call this FOG. I feel no contacts also means no family photos.

[TwentyTwenty]

Hi, I’m sorry you are going through this.

One key thing that I see in your post is that you are being harmed & damaged by this new assault on your life.

It is in fact an assault, since you’ve made clear that you need to be removed from the ill effects of being abused by your family.

Your health, peace of mind and happiness are suffering even from this one attempt to drag you back into the family cage, and I’m my opinion if it were myself, I’d let the monkey know to keep out of my life.

I don’t quite get how PDs can selectively carve out of the family one pet to show kindness to, while assaulting the other family members, as if selectively harming one member does not harm the whole family, which in fact it does.

My version of a reply to the monkey would be “Yes, a better day would be when my PDs take ownership of their abuse, get real therapy that is helpful, and are contrite and ready to apologize for the damage that they have done to us. Let us know if that day ever comes. Goodbye”

[illogical]

Hi Unknown,

It is not surprising to me that your PD mother would want her grandkids in the photo.  Image is extremely important to PDs-- especially the N variety.  So it's not out of the ordinary your mother would send in a FM to see if the event could take place.

You have already told her FM that you are busy on the designated day.  I would ignore the FM's last text question "Would a another day work for you?"  Just ignore it. 

The bottom line is you don't know exactly how much this FM knows.  You don't know what your mother has told her.  I would not allow her to churn up drama.  There is no JADE necessary.  I would not pull the FM into the drama.  I suspect that's exactly what your mother would like you to do-- she sent the FM to "test the water".   No response or reaction or JADEing, because if you do, then you've likely give your mother the emotional reaction she craves.

So go about your business as usual, and ignore, ignore, ignore any and all attempts to pull you back into the dysfunctional dynamic.  That's my advice to you if you want to remain NC. 

You haven't been NC that long.  I think it's normal to have doubts and try to second-guess your decision.  Trying to extricate yourself from the dysfunction is difficult, and the pull to try to get you to go back is strong.  It's not uncommon to try to rationalize going back, with statements to yourself like "It wasn't that bad" or "Maybe NC is too harsh here" or "Maybe they deserve a second chance (or third or fourth or fiftieth)"

You might ask yourself why you are even considering breaking NC.  If you are journaling your journey, maybe read back over all the reasons you went NC in the first place.  And ask yourself "Have they really given me any indication things have changed?  Any apologies for their bad behavior? Or have they made any attempt at acknowledging my feelings?" 

If the answer to the above questions is "No" then you might want to rethink breaking NC.  I went NC with my GC brother three times before it finally sunk in that he was the same person today he was the other two times I went NC.  And that person was no one I wanted in my life.

You said you thought "What's the harm in letting the kids be a part of the photos?"  My feelings are that there absolutely could be harm for you, because you have sent a message to your mother that you are willing to crack the door.  She will likely barrel it down.  She will take full advantage of you offer to let the kids be a part of her "fantasy family" and, there is a danger she could offer them a sip of her Kool-Aid. 

If I wanted to remain NC, there is no way I would let my kids be a part of that.

[blacksheep7]

 Welcome  Unknown, 
I'm sorry that you are going through this.  It is very painful and takes up a lot of energy.

You are one year in nc.....It is normal that you still have doubts, asking yourself questions.  I did too.

Follow your instincts, they are not wrong....If you don't want to go back to that dysfunction, don't.

take care

[treesgrowslowly]

If you agree to have your children in the photo, your family members can ask you for their next request.

I've been NC for over 10 years. If I agreed to this photo request 1 year in, I would be back to square one with my boundaries.

Their request is already creating anxiety. Consider it carefully and focus on what you need.

They don't get it. What matters to narcissists is supply. They love photos to post on social media. That is what they focus on. How to get the attention they want.

I am sorry you're dealing with this.

Trees

[scapegoat/caregiver]

so sorry you are going thru this . my impression of why they want this photo is the
"how others think of the family"   so everyone thinks the family is " NORMAL"
if they come back and ask again.... you can say  "I do not feel comfortable with that ...not this year"
wait until you heal before making any of these decisions.   gut instinct is important 

[Xena]

Hello, Unknown

Based on my experiences, it doesn't help to engage with the FM. The interactions can end up ruining your day. If the FM is from your family or is a close friend of your family, I'd drop the rope & not respond. Anything else will give your mom narc supply & more drama to feed on. If the FM is someone outside of the family or if you do want to respond, you could do "Sorry, we are just really busy" or something along those lines and end your replies there. (In this case busy = busy being healthy, making good choices, taking care of yourself...)

I also have a family that works very hard to look normal on the outside, but is dysfunctional on the inside. The structure of it is built on a base of backbiting, triangulation & misuse of power/control. We want to be heard & validated, but these types of family systems aren't capable or aren't willing to do that. They don't see the problem; instead they pick scapegoats to be the problem. I think NC is a choice we make because we want to stop the abuse; we will always be viewed by them as "less than" (not equal to). Our place in the pecking order is assigned to us, but they do not get to assign us our response, even if they bring the pressure (which is what is happening to you with the family photo - your mom is indirectly pressuring you to cave & conform).

In my family, I'm the scapegoat & the only way for me to be healthy is to not play the game (NC is hard, but being devalued & disrespected is worse). Over the years, I also sent bday cards/texts to family members that were not ever reciprocated. Everyone knows it's ok to exclude & ignore Xena - she'll just keep trying. Once I saw that truth, I stopped trying to keep up family relationships that were only being kept up by me (turns out there were a lot of them!). I started investing more in my two-way relationships & let the one-sided relationships go.

As for the photo, consider this perspective: not having your kids in the photo would send the message (to your mom, but also to yourself) that your boundaries are firm & you will protect your kids from her dysfunction. The result would be that your FOC stays healthy & your mom's attempt to portray the image of "perfect adoring family" finally started showing visible cracks in 2019, even if she never admits it or takes responsibility for her actions that caused it.   

[Free2Bme]

Unknown,
Although your feelings/needs are very important here for sure.  I would be really careful exposing your kids to anyone that you truly feel is toxic or would badmouth, gossip, undermine you or your spouse to your children, PD's can be very sneaky with this. 

I agree with illogical.... "there is a danger she could offer them a sip of her Kool-Aid".

Hypothetically, even if you were inclined to go, and were all girded up for the challenge, your children would not be able to sort out the behaviors of toxic adults and the dysfunction.  It's hard enough for intelligent middle-aged adults to get our minds around ! 

[Blueberry Pancakes]

My instincts about how to respond to the FM is to not reply. You already replied to the initial question out of courtesy and to let this person know that the date will not work for you.  That is all you need to do.  No additional response is required of you.  Rest assured, this FM knows if you wanted to participate, you would rearrange your plans. They also should recognize they just bumped up against your boundary.  You are not being rude. 

As for the overall aspect of allowing your family to gather with the group to obtain a photo, you also do not need to participate. To do so would perhaps come from a sincere need in your heart to not inflict injury or hurt onto others. It is so difficult to protect ourselves and at the same time do no harm. However, unless we are throwing rocks at others, we are not responsible for the way they feel. We are not responsible for their happiness or the level of peace they have in their life. We are however responsible for our own.  My concern about allowing your husband and/or kids to attend however is that your kids would be subject to some negative programming.  Families like this usually like to do whatever they can to get kids on "their side".  Personally, I would just disengage from the whole event and not answer any further questions about it.  Stay safe.  Stay on your good path.  You are not doing anything wrong.     

[sarandro]

Hi,
The potential photo opportunity is a big hoover, not only would the resulting image be totally contrived, it would serve to show that, once again, they are perfect and see you as somehow flawed for not going along with it. They would use the image to their advantage...to get the children on 'their side' so to speak.

It would be awkward for the children as well...they would not understand the dynamic and drink the Kool Aid.

Why not get your own photograph of your lovely family, just for you, so when you look at it, you will be reminded of all the love you give and are given instead of the overwhelming feelings of anxiety about the 'others' XXX

[Unknown]

Thank you to everyone who kindly replied! It is greatly appreciated.
I have had problems logging in since posting so it is only now that I got to view all the comments.
In the interim, this flying monkey's request  has evoked much anxiety, translated to insomnia, stress, panic attacks.
I spoke to DH about it. I told him I felt bad about ignoring her last text. I know she is the FM, but I don't want her to think I am ignoring HER.
That was probably guilt speaking. Right or wrong, I wrote her back after several days to her inquiry if there a better date that can work.
I finally just responded : No. We are not participating.

Any more would just add fuel to the fires of the NM and Nsister.
I have not heard from her since. I am glad.
Addendum to my OP:
I do recognize that much of my doubt in this came a little from G (Guilt) , but mostly from  F (fear.)
(Obligation really does not have a  pull on me anymore- Thankfully)
After more introspective analysis, I realized that I have thought of NC on a timeline, linearly. The longer I am NC, and then at X given point if I choose to resume Contact, I fear they will "get me". The further I am out of contact, the more I am "asking for it."

Sometimes, the fear comes where I think maybe I ought to break NC so whatever they do to me will be less traumatic? less harmful? I am not sure, I just feel 'just less' . That's the fear talking.

I hope that makes sense. I fear that the longer I go, the more they are adding to the woodpile to "burn me" at the stake.
It's kind of irrational, but I guess that's what fear is/what fear does.
I hope this makes sense.
For now, I am still NC. I am worried though, because my Nm's bday is coming up and this will mark the first time , the first year, I will not send her a card.
After all, I am NC.
it worries me. It worries me because it only adds "more wood to the woodpile" analogy I used earlier... (you know, to use to burn me at the stake.) ... I know they can't "get" me if I stay NC. But it then only means I can never go back, ever. That makes me fearful, and sad with the realization of this being FOREVER. Maybe forever is what also frightens me?
IDK...
If this resonates with anyone, please let me know. I feel so down..and  fearful.
thank you everyone, again.

[sarandro]

Hi Unknown...
I feel the same sometimes, like the longer I am NC...the worse the consequences will somehow be!

I am trying to make it the opposite...the longer it is..the better I will be able to face them should I ever need to.

The stronger I will be, the stronger my boundaries...

Like building that wall, you have to wait for the cement to dry fully before the wall is strong enough to use (put a door in maybe?)

I have a plaque in my kitchen that says...

'Things left unsaid become unspeakable'...me and my family refer to this when we have difficulty communicating.

My Mother has a similar one (which I gave her) that says..

'All will be well and all manner of things will be well'

I have often thought that I should have swapped over them when I had the chance!

[illogical]

...After more introspective analysis, I realized that I have thought of NC on a timeline, linearly. The longer I am NC, and then at X given point if I choose to resume Contact, I fear they will "get me". The further I am out of contact, the more I am "asking for it."

Sometimes, the fear comes where I think maybe I ought to break NC so whatever they do to me will be less traumatic? less harmful? I am not sure, I just feel 'just less' . That's the fear talking.

I hope that makes sense. I fear that the longer I go, the more they are adding to the woodpile to "burn me" at the stake.
It's kind of irrational, but I guess that's what fear is/what fear does.
I hope this makes sense.
For now, I am still NC. I am worried though, because my Nm's bday is coming up and this will mark the first time , the first year, I will not send her a card.
After all, I am NC.
it worries me. It worries me because it only adds "more wood to the woodpile" analogy I used earlier... (you know, to use to burn me at the stake.) ... I know they can't "get" me if I stay NC. But it then only means I can never go back, ever. That makes me fearful, and sad with the realization of this being FOREVER. Maybe forever is what also frightens me?

Hi Unknown!

I think I understand your fear.  You are worried that the Narcissist in your life will build and build and build a resentment, the longer you are NC, then rage on you.

My experience has been that once you start pulling away, whether it's setting boundaries, or going VLC, or going NC, the Narcissist won't like it.  They don't much like anything short of 100% compliance.  You are correct about built-up rage.  They may very well rage on you, because they see you as a threat to their fragile world.

I remember the anxiety I experienced for the first time, not sending my NM a b-day card.  It's going to be okay, really.  She can't hurt you.  Comfort your Inner Child.  Reassure your Inner Child, hold her hand, tell her that "mummie" can't do shit to you now.  You will be there for her, come what may!

Hold firm to your boundaries and let the chips fall where they may.  If your mother doesn't acknowledge any wrongdoing, doesn't apologize, doesn't show any remorse or recognition for doing anything wrong-- which will very likely happen if she is NPD/BPD-- don't move from your boundary, because nothing will change.

It's probably then time to start the grieving process.  Time to admit that your mother is not the mother you wanted her to be, will never be the mother you wanted her to be.

But just remember that you are an adult now.  Just because you don't send her a b-day card, the sky won't fall.  There is nothing she can do to you. 

Keep the wheel steady here.  Review your journal entries on why you went NC.  Celebrate how far you have come.  Celebrate your life, which only you can live!  Be glad you have walked away from hurtful and harmful behavior.  You rock!