Abuser reverses roles and plays the victim

[gettingstronger1]

Over the years that I have been on the Out of the FOG forum, I have noticed that many members have done a great job in educating about terms such as the gaslighting, flying monkeys, medium chill, grey rock method, low contact, non contact, smear campaigns, and setting emotionally healthy boundaries, etc.  All of the knowledge I have gained and the tremendous amount of emotional support has been crucial to helping me to deal with the abuse in my FOO and abuse from my NPD MIL.  I can not tell you how grateful I am for this. 

One area that I would like to discuss is the dynamic where the abuser plays the victim and reverses the roles between the abuser and the victim.  I am sure that this topic has been discussed before and maybe due to my own error, I missed some of the past conversations.  It just seems to me that one of the crucial components of dealing with abusers, is the abusers successful attempt at playing the victim and reversing the roles.  Abusers/personality disordered people often play the victim when you try to talk to them about the problem.  The common reaction seems to be that they state they are "attacked" or "abused" when you try to talk to them the problem.  What has really happened is that you talked to them about a behavior they have that is very difficult to hear.  They don't want to hear the truth so they say you "attacked" them and then they don't have to face the fact that they are abusive.   They then play the victim to the family by saying they have been abused by you.  It diverts attention from their abuse and puts it on you.  Playing the victim plays a second purpose in that it effectively removes you from the family.  The abuser can't have you remain in the family if you are onto their abuse and actively confronting them in front of others.  The other family members would then come Out of the FOG and start setting boundaries too.  The personality disordered person then loses their power over everyone and this is not acceptable to them.  The following article explains the dynamic of the abuser who plays the victim and reverses the roles for their benefit.

https://evolutioncounseling.com/abusers-try-to-shift-the-blame-to-become-the-victims/

I guess all that I am saying is the dynamic of the abuser playing the victim and reversing the roles is crucial to understand when dealing with a personality disordered person.  Once you are knowledgeable about what is going on behind closed doors you can much more effectively deal with the personality disordered person and call them out on this behavior.  Flying monkeys, siblings, and extended family still may not believe you because most abuse goes on behind closed doors, but at least you don't feel so confused about what happened to you and you understand the manipulative games personality disordered people play. 

I also know that it is not our job to justify our decision to go NC, but we are in the unique position to educate people about the hidden aspects of abuse.  Slowly and surely we can educate new survivors as they appear and other people in our life.  In some situations we can reduce the stigma of going NC, and bring more attention and knowledge to the general population about what emotional abuse is because most people do not know the damaging effects of emotional abuse or how devastating it is to the victim.  There are hundreds of suicides in the USA every day.  Some of these suicides are because of abuse.  It is a very serious and unrecognized problem.  It's time to change things and we are the people to do it.

There is no clear way out of this confusing quagmire as long as victims remain ignorant of the psychology of abuse. The only way out is to take a step back and clearly understand the transfer of responsibility taking place, to clearly understand how abusers casting themselves as the victims of the story is an offensive maneuver meant to throw their victims off the scent. The fact that people suffer more abuse for standing up for their right to not be abused is unacceptable but it's sadly the norm not the exception.

One other suggestion I have is to add "playing the victim" or "role reversal" to our list of definitions in the tool box or the resource section. Maybe it's already there under a different name, if so let me know. Thanks everyone for listening, and thank you for all for everything you are doing.  You do make a difference.

[P&K]

What you discuss is a very real and very challenging thing to deal with. I have been there, as have many others here.

What you are describing sounds like something referred to as DARVO. (Deny, attack, reverse victim and offender) I believe the tool box also has a section about this.

Thank you for sharing, it's important to know our experiences are valid.


https://www.restoredrelationships.org/news/2017/11/07/darvo-deny-attack-reverse-victim-and-offender/

[gettingstronger1]

P&K,
Thank you so much for your response.  The term DARVO really does explain the role reversal really well.  Maybe we need to be talking about DARVO more because it is just as insidious as gaslighting and causes survivors a tremendous amount of pain and confusion.  It is also a huge part of the smear campaign and the ultimate ejection of the truth teller from the family.  There is no room in the dysfunctional family for the truth teller, otherwise the abuse would end and the abuser would loose their power.  This seems like an important topic we need to educate on.  The connection of DARVO and the smear campaign, and how that leads to the ejection of the truth teller is important.  Thanks for educating me about this important concept.  I figured there had to be a good description of it out there.  Now I will go read more about it. Thanks

Has any one else had the experience of DARVO when dealing with personality disordered parents or family members?

[Solong]

YES I have experienced DARVO with parents and ILs.

I will never forget the time my father said with a smug smile, "you're accusing us of x, but you're the one in therapy. So, clearly the problem is you." 

Showing any expression of negative emotion in my childhood home was met with some reverse blame "you're too x, you're being too sensitive". And then if I directly pushed back, I got responses like the one above.

To this day, I question my reality, instincts, and decision regularly and on impulse. It's something I have to work hard to unlearn.

[AnneH]

DARVO is what my NC is all about. I believe playing the victim gives uHPDsis a sense of purpose and is the only way she is able to relate to others. This is why I was cast as her aggressor even though she was the only one engaging in toxic behavior (any time we met, she would go into a litany of snide remarks about the smallest insignificant details, including my hair colour, what I drank with dinner, my spelling, where I choose to live, my choice of career, my outside interests, etc etc etc...) and then go crying to the rest of FOO because I was SOOO stand-offish that I wouldn't share my innermost FEARS with her and she didn't even know if I CARED about her, so much so that she was losing SLEEP over it...Of course, the rest of FOO completely bought into this and demanded that I « reconcile » with uHPDsis (she is such a WONDERFUL person that they couldn't IMAGINE what she could have DONE for us not to be SPEAKING...). This wasn't just an annoyance I could ignore ; I could either spend hours a day trying to WORK ON OUR RELATIONSHIP and FIX THINGS (to no available), or be hounded to no end (also for hours a day) by the rest of FOO for not taking care of poor vulnerable uHPDsis.

[Xena]

Thanks for bringing this up & for posting the link. It took me a long time to realize it, but my NPDm is a master at this. When I would try to talk about her inappropriate behavior, she would shut me down with, "You say mean things." She would then compare me to some other person who had been mean to her. The thing is, it worked for her. I felt frustrated by her response, but I didn't challenge her any more on the subject I brought up. ...Until I set real boundaries with her a few months ago & she tried it again during the boundary-setting conversation. But now I am Out of the FOG, so I calmly replied, "No, I say true things and you don't like hearing it." Did she respect my boundaries after that? No, but I didn't have the expectation that she would (based on her past behavior). I did it for me, for my own self-respect & to stand up to the abuse. I don't know if DARVO is learned from growing up in a dysfunctional family or if it is an innate feature of certain PDs (probably both?), but abusers use it because it is effective. It certainly worked on me while I was in the FOG.

[StayWithMe]

Another aspect to this matter are the friends, family and other confidants (sometimes including therapists) who become advocates of the other side.  It doesn't even matter if your confidant knows the other person or even has a stake in principle.  I suppose for a lot of people there is a strong need to be passive aggressive which results in being contrary to everything the other person supports.

So maybe you'll get the "There are two sides to every story."
"Did you ask her why she did it" subtle message ....because if you didn't, nothing else matters.

A little trick that my ex husband played on me ..... as were in transit we shared for a month an apartment with his friends, a couple.  We knew that the wife wanted to have some friends and we decided we would go out.  I cleaned up the kitchen; informed that I did it and asked if he wanted to check it.  He told me, no, he trusted me.

So in the next 2 months a lot of shit went down between us and that couple.  Distressed, I told my husband, like or dislike me, her behavior towards me was very unwarranted.  My husband said, maybe it was the kitchen.  Since he had not seen the kitchen before we left, he was still free to assume that I was negligent.  "Well, I didn't see it so I can't be sure if the kitchen was in good order or not."

Don't ever let anyone get away with ignorance.  These days we have emails and texts.  We can take photos very easily. 

[lotusblume]

I can also relate here. Last year when I stood up for myself against abuse from my parents and siblings, they scapegoated me and played victim to all those who would listen. It's still going on.

I reopened the doors of contact and tried to mend the relationships with them almost a year later, and many of them gaslighted me.

Some examples of this playing the victim include my mother asking me if I had any regrets (about my NC)... As if it wasn't a reaction to their abuse. I had fully explained my perspective and intentions multiple times, with no acknowledgement of their part of the problem. She tried to make me feel guilty for taking a step back from them, told me my father hadn't slept for a year and was submitted to the hospital because of the stress "of everything". I confronted her, suggesting she was blaming me for his health issues (as she insinuated when I was a child), and she denied it.

I stood up to brother again, who continued to try and bully and gaslight me once the doors were reopened, and he claimed that I hated everyone and that I only wanted to talk about how everyone had hurt me but refused to "listen" and didn't want to see how I was hurting everyone else. He provided no examples. I assume me hurting everyone else was going LC and standing up to their abuse, no longer allowing them unboundaried access to me.

[gettingstronger1]

She tried to make me feel guilty for taking a step back from them, told me my father hadn't slept for a year and was submitted to the hospital because of the stress "of everything". I confronted her, suggesting she was blaming me for his health issues (as she insinuated when I was a child), and she denied it.

I stood up to brother again, who continued to try and bully and gaslight me once the doors were reopened, and he claimed that I hated everyone and that I only wanted to talk about how everyone had hurt me but refused to "listen" and didn't want to see how I was hurting everyone else. He provided no examples. I assume me hurting everyone else was going LC and standing up to their abuse, no longer allowing them unboundaried access to me.

Lotusblume, thank you for sharing your experiences with us.  The two situations you describe are similar to my experiences.  It is very common for the personality disordered person to say that you are abusing them when you try to talk to them about the problem. You are not abusing them. You are just telling them a truth they don't want to hear. It is probably a truth they are already aware of but have minimized.  It is also common for the personality disordered person to say you are abusing them when you go NC.  Once again, you are not abusing them or punishing them by going NC.  The only purpose of NC is to remove yourself from an abusive situation that is never going to change. Only then can true healing begin once you aren't exposed to abuse on a daily basis.  So if someone plays the victim and reverses the roles, (as P&K explained this is called DARVO) you can call them out on this behavior and let them know that it is not abusive to confront the abuser, set boundaries, or go NC.  None of these behaviors are abusive. You can point out that they are actually a sign of emotional health.  They might not believe you but you have set the record straight and you are not allowing the abuser to manipulate you like they do everyone else. Basically we are onto the abusers games.  We are now knowledgeable of what DARVO and gaslighting are. You can use the knowledge of role reversal or DARVO to help other survivors or help educate people that we meet who are open to the message.  Like I mentioned earlier, its going to be survivors like us and other therapists who are also survivors, who are going to educate the general population and slowly change the world.

[Hellsbells]

Hi I have a bit of an ongoing DARVO experience. I'll try to keep it brief! So basically in August  my daughter told me that my mother called my husband (who my parents don't speak to) a 'little shit' infront of my son (aged 9) and daughter (aged 12). This was late at night, when they had had a drink, at their caravan. I told my husband (wish I hadn't) and he sent my mother a message (against my wishes) which said 'I'm not bothered what you think about me but please don't call me infront of the kids'.
The resulting fallout started with my mother firstly not coming back from her caravan to meet me for a coffee as we had previously planned, followed by no contact for 3 weeks, followed by me telling her that I didn't need her to have the kids after school anymore on a mon and tues (partly as I was worried about whether my daughter would now be scapegoated for speaking up and also as I had been warned by a health professional that they had safeguarding concerns due to my stepfathers previous violent behaviour). We then had no acknowledgment of this message, 4 more weeks of silence and then I noticed that I had been unfriended on Facebook by her and blocked by my narc stepfather. I'd had enough by this point, it was 8 weeks since they had acknowledged me and I decided I'd had enough so I sent her a message saying I was done with them and didn't want a  relationship anymore. I got a response and it was 'shame on you' and a voicemail which said I have done what I had 'said I would never do' and stopped them from seeing the children. As usual there were elements of truth in it as obviously I had said the kids weren't going after school anymore but I never said they couldn't see them; she didn't answer my messages, wouldn't meet me etc and also I had grovelled about my husbands message the night he sent it (even though it was purposely very neutrally worded as he knows what they are like) saying 'please don't lets have a drama over this' and they ignored it, I tried to meet up, they rebuffed me, I messaged about the school plans as I had to let them know, they didn't acknowledge it, etc etc. So they gave me 2 moths of silent treatment and then said I had stopped them seeing the kids. There's no reasoning with them, that's why I give up.  It's crazy making, they just feel like they are the victims and I am the aggressive abuser, I can't be doing with it anymore.

[theonetoblame]

Oh ya, +1 on this topic!

I've seen it from a few people. In retrospect it seemed as though their lack of insight into the destructive nature of their behavior was so profound that when I responded to it in a normal manner (i.e. not tolerating it) they were shocked. However, I will own for myself that I have not always been 'medium chill' or 'grey stone' about it. I have definitely lost my patience and lashed back as well, but I believe this abnormal reaction to an abnormal situation was 100% normal.

I think for me the years of gaslighting built up an unrealized momentum for the backlash that eventually followed. I was really quite pent up with frustration and anger and would have been better served by standing my ground much earlier in life. Unfortunately, when I was younger, I was actually dependent on the perpetrators and really not able to hold my ground without them either smashing over my boundaries or cutting me off and neither situation would have been conducive to my well being. I needed to survive and kept my head down until I was independent enough to take the risk and by then I was boiling over.

[LittleStar]

Another relatable thread... Thank you all for sharing your stories. I guess the pd parents do have a playbook of sorts. My own Narc Mother also been playing the victim in front of anyone she can. Saying that I'm a bad person, cold hearted daughter, how can I treat her like this, bla bla, while crying. The smear campaign is strong. All this after i decided to cut ties with her...

I need to be strong and don't let her affect me. Hang in there guys!

[Call Me Cordelia]

LittleStar, that one always baffles me. If I had an estranged child, I certainly wouldn't be broadcasting my woes for the whole world to hear, and bad-mouthing the very person I would wish could see me in a better light! I would want to keep that information pretty close to myself. We ACONs certainly don't talk about our terrible parents to everyone we meet!

Healthy people are going to see there's something really off about her behavior, especially if it persists for any length of time.

[PeanutButter]

 Wow yes this is what my ubpdM did to me! This is what my unpdFIL and unpdMIL did to H.
In both situations the abused are described as being abusers since they were children. YES!  That is their story.
Myself and my husband can list details about behaviors and tell about specific words that they said to describe our abuse.
They however smear us with talk of how we made them feel "he broke my heart" "we gave her everything, but she doesnt appreciate it" "I am devastated that my own child could be so cruel to me" "id be ashamed if I was her" "we didnt raise him to be like this" etc.
And they also do just what the article says :
"'They turn the tables by quickly moving the conversation away from what they've said or done to focus instead on the abusive, hurtful nature of their victims' complaint and the rotten natures of their victims in general!
They'll make overgeneralizations, take things out of context, find a grain of truth, or just flat out lie in order to spin a deceptive tale of the things their victims have said and done or haven't said and done, a deceptive tale that supposedly proves the hostile, ungrateful, lazy, arrogant, cruel, abusive, etc. natures of their victims.""
Ours use these same tactics in smearing us. They tell anyone who will listen about how hurtfully critical we have been of them and how angry, ungrateful, cruel, and punishing we are to them.

[PeanutButter]

Hi I have a bit of an ongoing DARVO experience. I'll try to keep it brief! So basically in August  my daughter told me that my mother called my husband (who my parents don't speak to) a 'little shit' infront of my son (aged 9) and daughter (aged 12). This was late at night, when they had had a drink, at their caravan. I told my husband (wish I hadn't) and he sent my mother a message (against my wishes) which said 'I'm not bothered what you think about me but please don't call me infront of the kids'.
The resulting fallout started with my mother firstly not coming back from her caravan to meet me for a coffee as we had previously planned, followed by no contact for 3 weeks, followed by me telling her that I didn't need her to have the kids after school anymore on a mon and tues (partly as I was worried about whether my daughter would now be scapegoated for speaking up and also as I had been warned by a health professional that they had safeguarding concerns due to my stepfathers previous violent behaviour). We then had no acknowledgment of this message, 4 more weeks of silence and then I noticed that I had been unfriended on Facebook by her and blocked by my narc stepfather. I'd had enough by this point, it was 8 weeks since they had acknowledged me and I decided I'd had enough so I sent her a message saying I was done with them and didn't want a  relationship anymore. I got a response and it was 'shame on you' and a voicemail which said I have done what I had 'said I would never do' and stopped them from seeing the children. As usual there were elements of truth in it as obviously I had said the kids weren't going after school anymore but I never said they couldn't see them; she didn't answer my messages, wouldn't meet me etc and also I had grovelled about my husbands message the night he sent it (even though it was purposely very neutrally worded as he knows what they are like) saying 'please don't lets have a drama over this' and they ignored it, I tried to meet up, they rebuffed me, I messaged about the school plans as I had to let them know, they didn't acknowledge it, etc etc. So they gave me 2 moths of silent treatment and then said I had stopped them seeing the kids. There's no reasoning with them, that's why I give up.  It's crazy making, they just feel like they are the victims and I am the aggressive abuser, I can't be doing with it anymore.

Thats just terrible! IMO No you cant be doing it any more, now that you know your children's safety is at risk!
Its hard to stand up for ourselves because its all we ever knew, but when the abuse starts all over again with our children we have to finally take a stand! Trust your gut, your daughter would most definately been scapegoated! IME Bravo for not sending them back after finding out about stepfather was being violent!
IMO You should give your husband a hug for not thinking twice about standing up for your daughter.

[Fortuna]

This role reversal of victim and abuser is huge in understanding PD. Since how they 'feel' dictates 'what happened', that means if they feel angry, you must have done something to make them angry. Then, since you must have done something they feel they can do something 'back' to you.

For example, my uPDmom started doing an odd thing. She was cleaning out her office and asking if I wanted these little bundles of things she kept bringing over. Maybe a dozen or so times. It was almost exclusively photos and news clipping of me, occasionally my DH. I didn't attribute the behavior to anything, just thought it was odd.
Later I find out that when I was cleaning out my office and offered her a book back because it had some genealogical interest on her side of the family (Never opened the book and it failed my If I move to a 5th floor walk up, will I walk this up? test), she said it was like me stabbing her in the back and twisting the knife.
Therefore she was the victim because I gave back a book, and was justified, in her mind, of doing the passive aggressive getting rid of my life via paper goods to try to punish me. 

[StayWithMe]

Since how they 'feel' dictates 'what happened', that means if they feel angry, you must have done something to make them angry.

My parents used to use this phrase whenever I tried to make friends and it din't work out.  My parents really tried to drill in me --my sister, too-- that if you try hard enough, you can make anyone like you.  So my parents, out of their own social circles, whenever they met someone around my age, they would get thier phone number.  now it makes me wonder how much work wnet into getting that new person's phone number.

Ok, I'm a go getter.  so I call them and they don't return the call.  so if I wait for them, then my parents say I am not trying hard enough.  But once I start calling at stalker behavior rates and they don't return the call  (who would after, that?), then my parents say "you must have done something wrong." 

And it's sad /ironic they feel like they own this.  My other friendships --the ones they didn't broker -- are somehow less important to them.  Now as an adult, seeing how toxic it can get, my parents should not have been involved at all.  Certainly not at the point of preferring one friend over another.

[theonetoblame]

And they also do just what the article says :
"'They turn the tables by quickly moving the conversation away from what they've said or done to focus instead on the abusive, hurtful nature of their victims' complaint and the rotten natures of their victims in general!
They'll make overgeneralizations, take things out of context, find a grain of truth, or just flat out lie in order to spin a deceptive tale of the things their victims have said and done or haven't said and done, a deceptive tale that supposedly proves the hostile, ungrateful, lazy, arrogant, cruel, abusive, etc. natures of their victims.""

This quote is exactly what my parents did to me, in particular my father. After rereading my previous post in this thread it would appear I was still internalizing some of the blame for this reversal.... I say 'was' because the fog around this seems to be finally lifting. Like many here, I have an overwhelming experience of internal arousal when faced with the need to set boundaries with people. Because of this I often question if my communications are grounded and sensible. Invariably, when I review emails and other communications after the fact they are always appropriate. Perhaps direct and firm as needed, but never over the top, rude or inflammatory.

Looking back, when I finally began to speak truth about what happened in my childhood it was under the same conditions i.e. heightened internal arousal and subsequent second guessing of what I had said or written. The second guessing was driven from a place of feeling very vulnerable. Then, when the abuser pulled the above behavior it continued to undermine my confidence. I was so angry by that point that I finally had the fuel to hold my ground but that anger was not where I started the conversation -- it was in response to the role reversal!!! This is a really helpful insight for me, thanks everyone for this discussion!

[caley42]

They'll make overgeneralizations, take things out of context, find a grain of truth, or just flat out lie in order to spin a deceptive tale of the things their victims have said and done or haven't said and done, a deceptive tale that supposedly proves the hostile, ungrateful, lazy, arrogant, cruel, abusive, etc. natures of their victims.

YES!!! This is exactly what my Dad did to me when I (finally) confronted him about his abusive behavior towards me. He took a few situations (so there was a grain of truth in the circumstances he was referring to) and completely took them out of context and lied, he rewrote reality where he was the victim and I was this horrible ungrateful person. He said that my memories of my childhood were not real and that I was extremely delusional and he ended our text conversation saying that he "felt sorry for me and especially sorry for my daughter (I've raised my daughter by myself she's 12 years old) and that he "hopes she survives me" and then he said "Goodbye Forever".  I'm hurt but in a way, I'm also relieved that I won't have to deal with him anymore.

Now, I'm trying to deal with feeling guilty and foolish that I exposed my daughter to him (he wasn't physically or sexually abusive to me ever) knowing how he's treated me my whole life...

[gettingstronger1]

All of you have given some great responses and have some excellent insight. I think the bottom line is that the term DARVO needs more conversation because it is hurting many of us. We need to be aware of it and know how to deal with it. The more knowledge we have about PD manipulations the better able we will be able to deal with unnecessary guilt and manipulation.