Visit every fortnight (for groceries) - back is bad should I say no weekend?

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p123

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The bottom line is that your dad is not going to change.

The only variable in the equation is YOU.  You can decide to push back on his abuse.  You can decide not to give in to his whims.  You can decide you are not going to be the Scapegoat in this dysfunctional drama.  You can decide to make your own decisions, draw boundaries and not let his tantrums influence your decision.  You can decide he's not going to disrupt you and your family.  You can decide he's not going to ruin your Halloween, Christmas, or any other holiday.

The power rests with you.  And only you. 

Regarding WWIII?  Let him rage.  Let him rant.  Let him try to manufacture chaos by faking medical emergencies. 

You don't have to participate in that.  You can refuse to be a part of it, by refusing to give any response to his tirade.  Step outside of the drama.  Walk off the stage.

I have been in your shoes.  I have felt obligated, guilted and felt fear of my NM.  But once you realize that they are seriously mentally ill and that you cannot change them, and they are only going to continue to make your life a living hell, you can take back your power.  You can shut down the drama and refuse to be a part of it.  Scared?  Be scared.  But take action.  It's the only way you are going to have a life.  Remarking on this website about your father, talking about his antics and his bad behavior, saying you need to do this and you need to do that, but making excuses why you can't-- well, that's okay, we get it, but nothing will change in your life.  We can hold your hand, but you have to take the first step in setting boundaries.

Not trying to be harsh here, just letting you know that I've been there and in order to change your life, YOU have to change.  Because your brother won't and your dad won't.

thanks illogical.... Im getting there I think just a bit slowly.

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p123

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Well, I've not phone him yet but I will shortly.
Decided I'm not going today. My back is just not right so why should I rush around?

Last phone call where I was telling him about my back I could almost hear the cogs clicking in his head thinking "how is this going to affect me?". He didn't say much he made it that obvious. At no point, did he offer ANY sympathy or say anything nice. As expected of course! Last thing he said was "hope to see you sunday". WHAT? How about hope you're back is better.

I also remembered last time I didn't go as planned. (I'd been on call and up all night). All I got then was "Oh dear, oh dear (fakes a bit of a funny turn) well what am I going to do about food?"
I remember then offering to get it delivered and he said "no its ok I'll manage"

But others on this forum have got me thinking, for the good. Its not my RESPONSIBILITY to ensure hes got food. I'm happy to help where I can and always have. BUT hes seems to think its my problem to sort. I'm beginning to see it certainly is not.

If I can't get his food, for whatever reason, then its his problem not mine.

Also, as I said he "has" got food there its all a lie, and he has "meals on wheels" 4/5 days a week. He could have that weekends too (they sort of deliver it friday to be microwaved) but he declines. wonder why? ;-)

Wish me luck for later! More importantly, its 9am here, Wales V SA in the rugby world cup semi-final on TV at 9am... (its in japan).

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lkdrymom

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You do know you don't have to answer the phone if the hospital calls, right? And if you accidentally do, you have the right to say NO. They may try and guilt you but you can still say NO and hang up. Most people don't realize that at first. I know I sure didn't.  Once I received a phone call from the hospital starting at 5am every 15 minutes looking for a ride home for him. He literally lives 2 miles from the hospital but I am 25 miles away. This wasn't post surgical....this was him going to the ER in the middle of the night because he was constipated.  Wouldn't calling a cab make more sense?  I was smart enough not to answer that time but other times I wasn't and got called out. I learned from my mistakes.

How did the call go?

Ever consider telling him that you just don't WANT to go down rather than CAN'T? Seriously...what would WW3 look like?  What can he actually do to you?  You forget you have all the power. He needs you, not the other way around.  He is terrified that you will finally figure that one out.

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p123

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You do know you don't have to answer the phone if the hospital calls, right? And if you accidentally do, you have the right to say NO. They may try and guilt you but you can still say NO and hang up. Most people don't realize that at first. I know I sure didn't.  Once I received a phone call from the hospital starting at 5am every 15 minutes looking for a ride home for him. He literally lives 2 miles from the hospital but I am 25 miles away. This wasn't post surgical....this was him going to the ER in the middle of the night because he was constipated.  Wouldn't calling a cab make more sense?  I was smart enough not to answer that time but other times I wasn't and got called out. I learned from my mistakes.

How did the call go?

Ever consider telling him that you just don't WANT to go down rather than CAN'T? Seriously...what would WW3 look like?  What can he actually do to you?  You forget you have all the power. He needs you, not the other way around.  He is terrified that you will finally figure that one out.

Well I didn't go. He sort of knew I think that I wasnt going so he was all nice. He does this - pushes and pushes then quickly withdraws before he goes to far and concentrates on next time. Last week I had "so you'll still be up sunday?", yesterday I had "hope you're backs ok". Hes looking at next weekend now.
Spoilt it a bit with his sarcastic comment that he does ALL THE TIME - "oh well keep in touch". I'm not seeing you for a few days not going around the world for a years.....

Yes I had that with hospital a few times. I went nuts once on the phone to a nurse who had a really bad attitude about it. Told her to do one. But yes hes done that to me too. Expected a life home - its like 5 miles. I was in work, 60 mins train ride, then 45 mins drive to the hospital. He REFUSED to get a taxi. In the end waitied 4 hours for patient transport because he wanted to try and make me feel guilty. Then blamed me it made him ill sitting on a plastic chair. Unlucky then.

not sure if I'm ready for WW3 just yet if I can help it.

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lkdrymom

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Once my father called needing a ride to the ER.  Now you have to understand he uses the ER as a non emergency doctor visit.  I told him I could drop him off on my way home from work but I could not bring him home as I had things to do after work.  I made it very clear I was not coming back to get him.  So later that evening I had taken a sleeping pill.  It is dark and rainy out and I get a call fro the hospital telling me he is ready to be picked up.  I tell her I told him I would not be able to come and get him.  She refused to take NO for an answer. Stupid me went out. I should have told her I had taken a sleeping pill. That was the last time I fell for something like that. He refused to listen to me and just did what he wanted and he wanted me to pick him up.  You have to get to that point where you realize they really don't care about you to make it real easy to say NO.

What exactly would WW3 be?  Him throwing a hissy fit?  Doesn't he do that all the time anyway?

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p123

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Once my father called needing a ride to the ER.  Now you have to understand he uses the ER as a non emergency doctor visit.  I told him I could drop him off on my way home from work but I could not bring him home as I had things to do after work.  I made it very clear I was not coming back to get him.  So later that evening I had taken a sleeping pill.  It is dark and rainy out and I get a call fro the hospital telling me he is ready to be picked up.  I tell her I told him I would not be able to come and get him.  She refused to take NO for an answer. Stupid me went out. I should have told her I had taken a sleeping pill. That was the last time I fell for something like that. He refused to listen to me and just did what he wanted and he wanted me to pick him up.  You have to get to that point where you realize they really don't care about you to make it real easy to say NO.

What exactly would WW3 be?  Him throwing a hissy fit?  Doesn't he do that all the time anyway?

At the moment, hes impossible to argue with never. Never loses his temper just keeps on and on and on.


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GettingOOTF

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You are under no obligation to argue with him. If he keeps on and on you can walk away/put the phone down.

You are in control here. Itís very hard for many of us to accept that we have the control in these situations as we are used to being the helpless child, but we do have control and we are free to set our own boundaries.

You are doing great. Have you read any of Pete Walkerís world? He has a lot available for free on his website.

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p123

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You are under no obligation to argue with him. If he keeps on and on you can walk away/put the phone down.

You are in control here. Itís very hard for many of us to accept that we have the control in these situations as we are used to being the helpless child, but we do have control and we are free to set our own boundaries.

You are doing great. Have you read any of Pete Walkerís world? He has a lot available for free on his website.

Yes this is true but I find unless you go NC, hes still there. Hes still there to go on and on.

Yes I know I could walk away etc. Its just I'm not brave enough to escalate it to that just yet. Its is working albeit slowly.

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lkdrymom

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You are right, he will go on and on.  So you walk.  And you see him again and he goes on and on...and you walk.  It is a process.  Sooner or later he will figure it out and back off a bit.  I know what your are going through. I had to train my own father.  You don't even realize you are being taken advantage of until the one time you can't jump when they snap.  Then all heck breaks loose because you can't help them 'this one time"...they forget this is the 32nd time. You just made one big step in the right direction. Try not to back slide too much.

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illogical

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Hi p123,

It seems from your posts that you are caring what he thinks about your boundaries-- i.e., you are thinking you will go slow, tread carefully, and it won't cause a big blowup and things will be better.  Tell me if I've got this wrong.

As Spring Butterfly pointed out on another thread, boundaries are for you.  You set them, then you let the chips fall where they may.  You can't care what your dad thinks about them.  You can't care what his reaction will be. 

That's what I see is happening now with you.  You are setting boundaries and you think that you can change his behavior.  He will back off enough to let you live your life unencumbered.  Unfortunately, in PD World, it doesn't work that way.  You can't change your father one iota.  He is going to continue to push back on your boundaries-- whether it's playing The Ultimate Victim or creating chaos like a Hospital Emergency or continuing his never-ending demands on your time.  It's kinda like you are putting out brush fires here.  You put one out, then another crops up.  Then you put another out, then another crops up.

I'm not trying to say you need to go NC here.  That's not for everyone.  Just realize that as long as you engage with him-- i.e., remain in contact with him-- he will continue on doing the same ole same ole.  Nothing will change.  Sure, he's learned that when you get a bit assertive, he retreats to his shell and plays The Ultimate Victim-- "I can manage" or "Don't worry about me" or "Surely you'll be over next weekend".  But he's still manipulating you.  He's causing you to behave in a way you don't want to behave-- that' s manipulation. 

Right now I think you are "walking on eggshells".  I don't know if you are familiar with that term, but it means you are treading carefully, ever so lightly, so as not to upset your dad.  No good.  He will continue to pull your strings like The Puppetmaster he is.

You say you are "getting there" ever so slowly.  But nothing is going to change with your dad.  You are the only one who can change.  So you set your boundaries and let the chips fall.   You don't worry about what his reaction is going to be.  I hear over and over in your posts that "dad's like this" or "dad will do that" if "i do this."  You can't worry about that when you set boundaries.  You have to divorce yourself from caring about his reactions.  He won't ever change, no matter what you do. 

A lot of people on this forum-- not saying you in particular-- think that when they set boundaries, the other person will change.  They'll "behave".  No.  That's not ever the case.  A PD won't change.  Their personality disorder is woven through them.  It's an integral part of them.  It's not like a disease they can take medication for and get better. 

So the bottom line is, you decide to set a boundary based on your need to protect yourself (and your family) from further abuse.  You set that boundary and design a consequence if that boundary is trampled.  For example, you say "I can't come over this weekend."  Your dad keeps on and on pestering you when you will come over.  You say "I don't know, dad.  I told you, I can't come over this weekend."  He continues to pester you.  "When are you coming over?  Surely you can come in a couple of days."  You end the "circular conversation" which goes round and round the merry-go-round without any resolution, by saying "I'm not going to discuss this anymore, dad.  I'll talk to you later."

And the consequence for him trampling/not respecting your boundary is that you don't justify, argue, defend or explain (JADE) your answer.  Your answer is your answer, period.  And you don't give a rat's arse if he likes it or not.  You don't care about his reaction.  You do what you need to do to have a life free of him abusing you and burdening you and taking up all your time and draining you, and you ignore his victimhood, his tantrums-- really, any REACTION he has.

That's how you break The Cycle of Abuse.
"Applying logic to potentially illogical behaviour is to construct a house on shifting foundations.  The structure will inevitably collapse."

__Stewart Stafford

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p123

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Hi p123,

It seems from your posts that you are caring what he thinks about your boundaries-- i.e., you are thinking you will go slow, tread carefully, and it won't cause a big blowup and things will be better.  Tell me if I've got this wrong.

As Spring Butterfly pointed out on another thread, boundaries are for you.  You set them, then you let the chips fall where they may.  You can't care what your dad thinks about them.  You can't care what his reaction will be. 

That's what I see is happening now with you.  You are setting boundaries and you think that you can change his behavior.  He will back off enough to let you live your life unencumbered.  Unfortunately, in PD World, it doesn't work that way.  You can't change your father one iota.  He is going to continue to push back on your boundaries-- whether it's playing The Ultimate Victim or creating chaos like a Hospital Emergency or continuing his never-ending demands on your time.  It's kinda like you are putting out brush fires here.  You put one out, then another crops up.  Then you put another out, then another crops up.

I'm not trying to say you need to go NC here.  That's not for everyone.  Just realize that as long as you engage with him-- i.e., remain in contact with him-- he will continue on doing the same ole same ole.  Nothing will change.  Sure, he's learned that when you get a bit assertive, he retreats to his shell and plays The Ultimate Victim-- "I can manage" or "Don't worry about me" or "Surely you'll be over next weekend".  But he's still manipulating you.  He's causing you to behave in a way you don't want to behave-- that' s manipulation. 

Right now I think you are "walking on eggshells".  I don't know if you are familiar with that term, but it means you are treading carefully, ever so lightly, so as not to upset your dad.  No good.  He will continue to pull your strings like The Puppetmaster he is.

You say you are "getting there" ever so slowly.  But nothing is going to change with your dad.  You are the only one who can change.  So you set your boundaries and let the chips fall.   You don't worry about what his reaction is going to be.  I hear over and over in your posts that "dad's like this" or "dad will do that" if "i do this."  You can't worry about that when you set boundaries.  You have to divorce yourself from caring about his reactions.  He won't ever change, no matter what you do. 

A lot of people on this forum-- not saying you in particular-- think that when they set boundaries, the other person will change.  They'll "behave".  No.  That's not ever the case.  A PD won't change.  Their personality disorder is woven through them.  It's an integral part of them.  It's not like a disease they can take medication for and get better. 

So the bottom line is, you decide to set a boundary based on your need to protect yourself (and your family) from further abuse.  You set that boundary and design a consequence if that boundary is trampled.  For example, you say "I can't come over this weekend."  Your dad keeps on and on pestering you when you will come over.  You say "I don't know, dad.  I told you, I can't come over this weekend."  He continues to pester you.  "When are you coming over?  Surely you can come in a couple of days."  You end the "circular conversation" which goes round and round the merry-go-round without any resolution, by saying "I'm not going to discuss this anymore, dad.  I'll talk to you later."

And the consequence for him trampling/not respecting your boundary is that you don't justify, argue, defend or explain (JADE) your answer.  Your answer is your answer, period.  And you don't give a rat's arse if he likes it or not.  You don't care about his reaction.  You do what you need to do to have a life free of him abusing you and burdening you and taking up all your time and draining you, and you ignore his victimhood, his tantrums-- really, any REACTION he has.

That's how you break The Cycle of Abuse.

Thanks illogical. Pretty spot on.... BUT I don't care what he thinks of my boundaries but I do care about what happens. I'm just not strong enough yet to deal with a massive fallout.

Yes I know he'll never change. But I've got better. Before I'd feel guilty etc now I don't care. I'm at the stage now where I do put up some boundaries, knowing that there wont be massive fallout and I dont care if he gets a little upset.

But I also know that I still let him get to me. I get annoyed at what he does. Probably shouldn't.

And yes I can't get away from jade at the moment. I guess Dad is so used to knowing exactly whats going on its hard to just say "I'm busy" to him.

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p123

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You are right, he will go on and on.  So you walk.  And you see him again and he goes on and on...and you walk.  It is a process.  Sooner or later he will figure it out and back off a bit.  I know what your are going through. I had to train my own father.  You don't even realize you are being taken advantage of until the one time you can't jump when they snap.  Then all heck breaks loose because you can't help them 'this one time"...they forget this is the 32nd time. You just made one big step in the right direction. Try not to back slide too much.

Oh he has figured out that I'm up to something. Hence why hes being nice now.

I'm trying....

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illogical

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Thanks illogical. Pretty spot on.... BUT I don't care what he thinks of my boundaries but I do care about what happens. I'm just not strong enough yet to deal with a massive fallout.

Yes I know he'll never change. But I've got better. Before I'd feel guilty etc now I don't care. I'm at the stage now where I do put up some boundaries, knowing that there wont be massive fallout and I dont care if he gets a little upset.

But I also know that I still let him get to me. I get annoyed at what he does. Probably shouldn't.

And yes I can't get away from jade at the moment. I guess Dad is so used to knowing exactly whats going on its hard to just say "I'm busy" to him.

It has been my experience that PDs do not compromise.  They only take, they don't give.  I think you are laboring under the impression that as long as you don't push too hard, as long as you are "reasonable" in your requests, as long as you have good reason for not going over to visit or not buy him groceries-- e.g., your back is bothering you, or your wife is working on Xmas Day-- your dad will "get over it", maybe be "a little upset", but you can deal with that.

The thing is, anything you do short of 100% compliance is not going to be acceptable to your dad.  And you are never going to know when that day will come where he will freak out over something you refused to do and that Hospital Emergency you dread will happen.  You may not be prepared for a "massive fallout", but it will likely happen.  And in the meantime, you are walking on eggshells, not knowing what the trigger will be.  Because your dad is not a normal, reasonable person.  He has a PD.  He only sees his own needs, not yours.  That's why he can't understand why you aren't available to serve him 24/7.  He's not capable of empathy, and that's why he has no concern for your needs.  Sure, he's learned that when his back is against the wall, it will serve him to throw you a breadcrumb-- "hope your back's okay", e.g.,-- but what he's really thinking is not that he's concerned about your welfare, but I hope p123's back is better so he can get me those groceries and come over to visit.  Right now he's "being nice", you say.  That's called a hoover.  It's designed to "suck you back in" to the dysfunctional web or dynamic.  Maybe you'll fall for that "bait" and incorrectly assume he's a caring father and "not so bad" and go back to being his servant 24/7. 

And so you go back, and the Cycle of Abuse repeats itself:  Your father makes a demand, you comply.  Your father makes another demand, you push back.  Your father plays The Victim, backs off a bit and sees if that will persuade you to comply.  You continue to push back, so he pulls The Hoover.  Okay, you give in, in order not to rock the boat, in order that there won't be a "massive fallout" as you call it-- i.e., him threatening self-harm or going to the hospital after a fall, real or faked.  And suddenly, you are right back to Square One.  He's got you running around six ways to Sunday attending to his needs.  Until you get angry and start to push back a little.  Rinse, lather and repeat.  That's The Cycle of Abuse.

My point here is that it doesn't matter if you are prepared for a "massive fallout" or not.  Once you start down that road of setting boundaries, it very well could happen, and happen at any point-- even if you are acting reasonably toward him.  So you get the call from the hospital that you need to come right away and tend to your dad.  And you get this phone call on Xmas Day, when you thought you had everything under control.  I'm not trying to paint an exaggerated negative picture here.  I'm saying that, based on my experience, that is a very likely scenario.

So how do you prepare for a "massive fallout"?  You recognize that it could happen at any moment, but you DON'T let it influence YOUR determination to have a life.  You don't let it influence your decisions regarding dealing with your dad.  You say "I'm not going over this weekend and if he manufactures an 'emergency', so be it." 

Regarding JADEing, the reason that's a bad idea is that it results in circular conversations.  No matter what reason or excuse you come up with that you won't be able to comply with your dad's unreasonable request, he will keep on and on with reasons why you should comply.  Hence a "circular conversation", or a conversation that goes round and round in circles and goes no where.  So you don't give him a reason why you can't come, you just say "I can't manage it."   

Because your dad "expects" an explanation, you feel you have to give him a reason.  Or what?  Massive fallout?  But as I said, "massive fallout" can happen at any time, once you start down the Boundary Road.  You don't let that fear prevent you from asserting your boundary.  You tell yourself, "If dad wants to generate chaos here because I refuse to comply with his request, let him go ahead.  If he wants to go to hospital, he can do that by himself."  And I promise you the sky won't fall.  And you won't be walking on eggshells anymore.  You will have confronted your fear and found out that you do have the strength to tell your dad "No" and not give him any reason for it.  You don't have to.  It's your life, not your dad's life, and you can choose to live it however you want.  And you can choose to spend your time however you want.   :yes:


« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 10:00:36 AM by illogical »
"Applying logic to potentially illogical behaviour is to construct a house on shifting foundations.  The structure will inevitably collapse."

__Stewart Stafford

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p123

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Illogical. Yeh I agree. I KNOW that any sympathy I get off him is all leading to me being fit to do his calling.
Sometimes though he acts strangely as if hes disagreeing with himself. Let me explain.

He seems to get an idea in his head that this "should happen" or "he needs to do this" or "I need to do that" or "its ok if that happens".

He comes over xmas day (or did) and you can tell he hates it. In the past I told him I'll take you home early but he won't. Then he'll admit it was all a bit much for him (its busy in our house) but he felt he had to stay. He gets the idea is his head that xmas day he should be at his sons house.

This is part of the probem with the groceries. He won't look for an easier way because "someone should be helping him" so thats all he focuses on.

Its weird how he'll push something then let it go and be well over the top about it. If I say I can't visit daughter is ill, he'll say "oh thats ok of course, you need to look after her". Then 5 mins later "thats ok  again". Sometimes I just get the impression that one part of him is telling him I need to my duty and he needs to tell me but now I've got a good excuse the other part is ok to let me know. Its weird  sometimes.

Hes done it for holidays. He said strange things like "oh yes, you've been working hard, you've helped me a lot, yes its ok for you to have a break". Weird or what? As if hes talking himself into it being ok for him not to berate me about it.

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illogical

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Ns love attention.  They want the planets to revolve around them, The Sun, lol.  Maybe he came to your house on Xmas thinking everyone would fuss over him and, when they didn't, he got bored and wanted to go home. 

It also sounds like he enjoys bossing everyone around.  In addition to wanting everyone to orbit around them, Ns are control freaks.  To quote from your post, him saying "oh yes, you've been working hard, you've helped me a lot, yes it's okay for you to have a break" is something a master would say to their slave, lol.  I think he sees himself still in the parent role and you are the child/slave.  He does not recognize you as an independent adult.  Rather, you need for him to give you "permission" to take a break.

Any advice I gave my NM was rejected, because she wasn't going to have me, the Scapegoat Child, telling her, the Queen Bee, what to do.  She always had to be in charge.  And the spotlight always had to be on her, or she wasn't happy.  :no:
"Applying logic to potentially illogical behaviour is to construct a house on shifting foundations.  The structure will inevitably collapse."

__Stewart Stafford

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p123

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Ns love attention.  They want the planets to revolve around them, The Sun, lol.  Maybe he came to your house on Xmas thinking everyone would fuss over him and, when they didn't, he got bored and wanted to go home. 

It also sounds like he enjoys bossing everyone around.  In addition to wanting everyone to orbit around them, Ns are control freaks.  To quote from your post, him saying "oh yes, you've been working hard, you've helped me a lot, yes it's okay for you to have a break" is something a master would say to their slave, lol.  I think he sees himself still in the parent role and you are the child/slave.  He does not recognize you as an independent adult.  Rather, you need for him to give you "permission" to take a break.

Any advice I gave my NM was rejected, because she wasn't going to have me, the Scapegoat Child, telling her, the Queen Bee, what to do.  She always had to be in charge.  And the spotlight always had to be on her, or she wasn't happy.  :no:

Yes exactly. His idea of the relationship we should have and what I want are completely different.

He wants to be at the top of the pyramid, dishing out advice, telling people what to do, getting them running around.

Dad never did much with his life. On his gravestone I'm going to write "to be on the safe side". Thats his motto for life. Never left the town where he was born, never tried to get a better job. Thats what hes like now. Small minded is not the word. Me on the other hand, went away to college, worked away from home, travellled europe with work, quite normal employment to set up my own company (dad hates the idea),

So when he gives me "advice" or tells me how it should be its generally narrow-minded rubbish. Honestly, its not even close to being anywhere near sensible. Even if there was any need to give it.

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SunnyMeadow

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And the consequence for him trampling/not respecting your boundary is that you don't justify, argue, defend or explain (JADE) your answer.  Your answer is your answer, period.  And you don't give a rat's arse if he likes it or not.  You don't care about his reaction.  You do what you need to do to have a life free of him abusing you and burdening you and taking up all your time and draining you, and you ignore his victimhood, his tantrums-- really, any REACTION he has.
That's how you break The Cycle of Abuse.

Great post illogical. Very true that ignoring the tantrums, victimhood and poor me really do work. I've gotten to this point and am seeing my NPDm as an angry toddler in her reactions. I know she's going to pout, cry and gaslight in any situation she doesn't like. I know it and I just don't care anymore. Have at it lady, a ridiculous way for an 80+ year old woman to act but go for it.



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Pepin

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He wants to be at the top of the pyramid, dishing out advice, telling people what to do, getting them running around.

Dad never did much with his life. On his gravestone I'm going to write "to be on the safe side". Thats his motto for life. Never left the town where he was born, never tried to get a better job. Thats what hes like now.

I totally see this with the 2 "elder" PD's in my life (NF and PDMil).  They just want to fit in where they don't belong...ignoring themselves because they loathe who they are.  It is such a sad and unfulfilling way to live.  While both PDs are immigrants, they essentially landed and remained in one spot for decades, like that big jump was all they could do and everything else became about "being safe".  No risks, really because they were satisfied with the one big risk that they already took.  Meanwhile, everyone else around them takes risks every day because that is what most people do when they want to challenge and better themselves.  Yes, the PDs live in a very small world and they want all the attention they can get while they stand on this box because deep inside they ae so unhappy with their decisions...
Why work so hard to have a relationship with someone that does not care the same way as you?

No PD is going to tell me what to do.

Born into a dysfunctional family and married into a dysfunctional family.

People who don't bring joy, let them go.

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p123

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And the consequence for him trampling/not respecting your boundary is that you don't justify, argue, defend or explain (JADE) your answer.  Your answer is your answer, period.  And you don't give a rat's arse if he likes it or not.  You don't care about his reaction.  You do what you need to do to have a life free of him abusing you and burdening you and taking up all your time and draining you, and you ignore his victimhood, his tantrums-- really, any REACTION he has.
That's how you break The Cycle of Abuse.

Great post illogical. Very true that ignoring the tantrums, victimhood and poor me really do work. I've gotten to this point and am seeing my NPDm as an angry toddler in her reactions. I know she's going to pout, cry and gaslight in any situation she doesn't like. I know it and I just don't care anymore. Have at it lady, a ridiculous way for an 80+ year old woman to act but go for it.

Yep I can see that with Dad. I just look at him and he acts like a baby. Often I've offered him a solution but hes decided he doesnt like it so carry on.

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p123

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Well this weekend.

Dad - "So are you coming Sunday, I'd like to go for a ride in the car".
Me -"No Dad I'm busy and my back is still bad so I'd rather not drive far"
Dad - "OK let me know" (What? I just did).

So I phone him late on Sunday (this works its too late then for me to visit).
Dad - "Oh so thought you'd have come to take me out"
Dad - "I've been stuck int he house all day"
Me - "Dad I told you I was busy"
Dad - "Doing what?"

Usual behaviour. Ignore what I said. Play the guilt card. Expect me to justify why I didnt do what he wanted. Jeez every time :-(