Visit every fortnight (for groceries) - back is bad should I say no weekend?

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p123

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I guess some of you will have read my posts....

Visit Dad once a fortnight. He pushes and pushes for more like every week and more.

His excuse is he needs groceries. He doesn't - its all a scam. I've offered home delivery and he turns it down.
This weekend is the "week". He knows and puts the pressure on days before to make sure I go - "hope to see you sunday" etc.

I really want to get out of this "every two weeks come hell or high water". Sometimes I'm on call, sometimes I've got my own stuff on. Might seem mean to see my Dad less than once every two weeks but if he was nicer I'd visit more.

This weekend is the first one my wife hasn't worked for about a month.  Halloween is coming and got loads to sort out (my wifes loves halloween) My back is really bad at the moment (he knows this).

Last thing I feel like doing is visiting him. I'd like to spend time with my family and help with Halloween preparations. And rest my back! I just want to prove to him that every two weeks is not an emergency if I don't come.

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SunnyMeadow

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I really want to get out of this "every two weeks come hell or high water".

How are you going to handle this? What do you plan to say?

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p123

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I really want to get out of this "every two weeks come hell or high water".

How are you going to handle this? What do you plan to say?

One plan is to say "My back is bad, I can't drive" Bit of lie of course.

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moglow

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Here's an idea - don't lie and don't make excuses. No is really a complete sentence. So is "We've got plans for the weekend, so I'll see you next week." Tell him when you'll be there [or call] then do that, and outside that time you live your life with your family - without grinding dad into the dirt. Sitting around grousing and growling over his calls isn't helping anyone. You can limit the calls without the world coming to an end. You can turn off the phone, silence HIS calls/messages until later, send all calls straight to voicemail, etc. Really, maybe it's time to put some of that into practice so everyone gets some peace.

Sometimes I'm reminded of my grandmother "if you can't say anything nice, say nothing at all" when talking to mother, and I quietly end the calls when I've had enough. Sometimes I even have the presence of mind to not engage and end the call before it gets that bad! May the odds be ever in your favor.  :ninja:

ďNothing exposes our true self more than how we treat each other in the home.Ē  ~ Joseph B. Wirthlin

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Thru the Rain

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I've been following your posts and I think you've come a long way!

I agree that you don't have to lie, but I also think it's OK to say things that aren't 100% accurate. You said your back is hurting - so if you use that as your "excuse" how is it a lie?

Stick to your guns and spend the weekend with your FOC. You deserve it, and your FOC deserves it too.

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Poison Ivy

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I'm in favor of not using illness or pain as an excuse, if it's not the primary reason.  I suggest, "No, Dad, I can't come this weekend."

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Sidney37

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Iíd be direct (and I know how hard that is).  Iíd tell him that you canít make it and that you are ordering the groceries for delivery. 

My great aunt with no children was this way about the groceries.  She was likely PD, too.  Iím thinking how we should have handled it with boundaries now that I am OOTF.

 Does he give you a list?  How do you know what to buy?  Is it she same every 2 weeks?  Does he pay or give you the money after?  Could you order the groceries to be delivered and tell him after the order is placed? 

I agree. Youíve come a long way, even if it doesnít feel like it.  Have you read ďBoundariesĒ yet?  It might help to make the small steps you are already taking just a bit easier.

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Fiasco

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Place a grocery order for delivery and to heck with what he wants. Once youíve placed the order youíre done and let it go. If he refuses the delivery? If he lets the food sit on his porch until it rots? Not your problem.

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GettingOOTF

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I found once I stopped making excuses my boundaries got easier to enforce as I didnít have the additional guilt of the white lies.

Itís hard to change a lifetime of behaviors. It sounds like you are doing great. ďI cannot come. I already have plans.Ē is all you need to say.

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Aingeal

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Depending on the situation..... and my mother's over the top reactions..... I think I would personally stick with a white lie.  If I have a cold I tell her it's the flu etc.  And you do have the bad back.  You do need to rest your back.  You don't want it to get worse.  Lugging groceries is a bad idea.  An already strained hurt back could leave you aching and in more pain.  Is it worth it for an NPD father who doesn't even need the groceries?  Does he want to ensure a visit from you and is it for control issues? 

I can only deal with my NPDm through LC now.  I'm slowly moving towards VLC but I'm weaning off of her in baby steps.   NPDm is a rager, she's volatile - getting worse as she ages.  She asks me to pick things up for her at the drugstore (a lot) as if it's an emergency - EVERY time.  Like Nyquil, Pepto Bismol - over the counter things.- each time I went out of my way to get something for her and then find out that she didn't really need it.  She forgot that she can't take Nyquil with the meds that she's on even though I questioned her about that before another useless trip to the store for her (The drug store is less than a block away from her place but I'd often FOG and go for her).

I'm the queen of the white lies when it comes to dealing with my NPDmom.... it's less stress for me in the long run (or short run coincidentally).  She'll blow up my phone with texts, she'll email, leave voicemails - and yes, I can ignore them but I'm on edge just knowing that she doesn't or won't stop.  It's like a hen - peck peck peck peck pecking until it drives you crazy.   It's all NPD mind games anyway, they love control. 

Why risk your back for nothing?  What's wrong with spending time with your FOC and making memories - especially when your wife loves Halloween.  You'll have a great time and have happy family time this weekend.  You only live once and you're not coming back - so why not seize the opportunity with this one measily little weekend for the wife and kids?  Your Dad has monopolized so much of your time - you've gone above and beyond - and for a man who can't / would never appreciate it anyway. 

Have fun this weekend with the family - be appreciated and .... um ... yes - I wholeheartedly vote for telling the old man about the bad back/can't drive reason.   Take some me/FOC time - it's call self care.    We all need a break so our NPD's don't run us into the ground.  (Quoting another poster here: You don't have to light yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.  Best advice - EVER!!)

P.S.  I've also parked my car on another street so NPDmom would leave me alone for a weekend.  I was at my stress breaking point and I knew it.  Oh, yeah - WORTH IT!!!!!  Sometimes you just want a little peace.



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WomanInterrupted

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I wouldn't tell your dad anything other than you can't come, then do as Fiasco suggests - order groceries for him.  What he does with them  is his business - and that includes refusing delivery or letting them rot on the porch.  :yes:

The mistake you're making is the same one I made, and many of us have made:  expecting your dad to have any *empathy.*  You want a human reaction and you're not going to get one *because he doesn't CARE.*

You could be in a body cast and he won't care.  Your entire town could be taken out by Godzilla and he won't care!    The *only* thing he cares about is getting you over there to do his bidding and test the boundaries of what he can and can't get away with.  :roll:

Every now and then, I'd run litmus tests on Ray, just to be *certain* of what I was  dealing with - I already did this one, so you don't have to.   :bigwink:

I was nearly finished dehoarding Ray's after Didi died and had screwed up my back.  Nothing serious, but it was bugging and I was stiff.

I went over to his house - I forget why - and it's pretty obvious something is wrong with me.  I wasn't walking quite right and was a little slower than usual, being more careful with my movements.  Ray sees this and asks what's wrong, so I tell him the truth - I'd thrown out my back and I'd be okay eventually.

Without missing a beat, he says, "Come on, I need you to help move my desk down the stairs."  :blink:

What he meant was *I* was to move his desk down the stairs, by myself, while he stood there and screamed that I was doing it wrong and "helped" by making things worse!

The desk was large, heavy and even if my back was okay, I would have needed my DH to help move it.

I said, "I can't do that."  :ninja:

Ray immediately barked, "WHY!?"  :mad:

I gogged a bit.  "Didn't you hear me?  My back is screwed up."

He said, "So?  Go on, it won't take you long..."  :mad:

Okay - now I'm angry, so I said, "I am NOT moving your desk without DH to help me."  :ninja:

He says, "WHY!?"  :mad:

Oh my giddy...   :wacko:

I said, "Because it's too heavy.  I can't move it by myself."  :ninja:

He says, "But you moved all that other stuff!"  :mad:

I took a *deep* breath, determined not to blow my cork or   scream, "What the hell is WRONG with you!?" - and said, "I'm not moving your desk.  It will have to wait until I can get DH over here.  I have to go..."  :ninja:

I'd barely walked in the door and had to get the hell out of there, but Ray has other ideas.  He says, "How about my safe?"  :aaauuugh:

Are.  You.  Fucking.  Serious?  :stars:

The safe is also upstairs and weighs probably twice as much as the desk!  :roll:

I kept my face intentionally flat as I said, "Don't you remember we've had this conversation and that safe isn't going anywhere?"  :ninja:

He says, "WHY!?"  :mad:

STREWTH!  :doh:

I said, "It weighs too much.  We've talked about this.  You're going to have to get somebody in here to get it on a dolly and get it down the stairs.  DH and I don't have the ability to do that."  :ninja:

He says, "Well, who does?"  :mad:

I wanted to groan in frustration as I said, "I don't know.  You're going to have to call professional movers, I think."  :ninja:

He starts going on about moving the desk *again* and I know what's going on, because I know Ray and know how his mind works:  if I can't move both, I'm going to move that desk.  That's *his* idea of a compromise.   :jawdrop:

But I've had enough, have already mentally checked out and was in the act of LEAVING, just listening to him going on and on about needing his desk, he can't climb the stairs  - but now Ray is following me as I head toward the back door, jabbering at me as I throw back noncommittal sounds like, "Hmm..."  :ninja:

I stop at the back door, turn around and he says, "I can empty the desk if it helps."  :mad:

I smiled, buzzed a kiss somewhere near his cheek and said, "Bye."  :ninja:

I left him at the back door, screaming blue murder - and really didn't care. 

He was still screaming  as I backed out of the driveway.    I made mental note to ignore his calls for the next few weeks.  :ninja: :yes:

After that, I mostly stuck to, "NO" when I didn't want to do something, or couldn't, and would follow up, "WHY!?" with, "I just told you why.  I can't do it."  :ninja:

There were a few notable exceptions - more litmus tests he failed.  I don't really know why expected differently.  :roll:

No is a complete sentence.  Enjoy your Halloween with your wife and kids - and never mind about your dad.  :yes:

Once you tell him no and place the order for the groceries, I'd block his number until Tuesday.  :thumbup:

 :hug:

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illogical

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Hi p123,

You are trying to break away from the expectations here.  In the past, you have complied with your dad's wishes.  That's set up expectations in his mind that YOU WILL DO THIS AND YOU WILL DO THAT.

So you have to gradually wean him off those expectations.

...The mistake you're making is the same one I made, and many of us have made:  expecting your dad to have any *empathy.*  You want a human reaction and you're not going to get one *because he doesn't CARE.*

You could be in a body cast and he won't care.  Your entire town could be taken out by Godzilla and he won't care!    The *only* thing he cares about is getting you over there to do his bidding and test the boundaries of what he can and can't get away with.  :roll:

LMAO on the "you could be in a body cast and he won't care!"   :meh:  That's right!  Meh, bigtime.

Tell him you are busy and you can't come over.  Repeat the offer to have groceries delivered.  If he bucks at the cost and the idea, say "I'm totally out of suggestions, Dad.  I'm sure you can figure it out."  Then, "I've gotta go.  Talk to you later."

The Day of Reckoning has arrived, p123.  You have to start setting the boundaries if you want to not be a slave to your dad anymore.  Grab that courage and go!

What you are currently doing is not working.  You are enabling him by continuing to meet his demands.  Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.  And if he doesn't like it, more boundaries!   :yes:



« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 09:49:21 PM by illogical »
"Applying logic to potentially illogical behaviour is to construct a house on shifting foundations.  The structure will inevitably collapse."

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p123

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Thanks all. I think I'm getting there slowly to be honest.
BUT hes fighting back big time.....

I'm totally aware now that he doesn't give a monkeys about me AT ALL. I know this. It helps when he displays this.

I mean a NORMAL person would say "Ah OK you look after yourself and dont worry about it" so it gives me strength when I see him doing the opposite.

I KNOW when I say "I'll get food delivered" he'll say "Its OK I can manage". Hes done this 10 times or so now and EVERY time I've called him out and said "so it wasn't urgent I visisted then". Then he forgets about it and same thing next week. Its like a toddler who forgets the rules!

BUT I'm not at the stage yet where I just say NO without explanation. WW3 will start. Not sure I'm quite ready for it just yet.

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GettingOOTF

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If he says heíll manage why not let him manage. He probably can do it himself. Plenty of people in his situation take care of themselves. He can do the shop and get it delivered himself. This is learned helplessness. What would happen if something serious happened to you? Heís using it as a way to control you and keep you where he wants you.

I am not 100% there yet but Iím close to accepting that I am never going to get what I want from my family. They donít care about me, only how I fit in to their system. Itís hard to look at our upbringings and see how bad they were and how poorly our family still treated us. You are doing good work. Keep moving forward.

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p123

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If he says heíll manage why not let him manage. He probably can do it himself. Plenty of people in his situation take care of themselves. He can do the shop and get it delivered himself. This is learned helplessness. What would happen if something serious happened to you? Heís using it as a way to control you and keep you where he wants you.

I am not 100% there yet but Iím close to accepting that I am never going to get what I want from my family. They donít care about me, only how I fit in to their system. Itís hard to look at our upbringings and see how bad they were and how poorly our family still treated us. You are doing good work. Keep moving forward.

Oh yes he doesn't need food at all. Its just a scam to get me to go there. I've called him out MANY times when hes said this.

Hes got a chest freezer 5% full. When I get him food he gives me a small list (£20-£25 or so). I always get more and he moans. Its not in his interest to fill the freezer up because then he loses one of his hooks in me. Mind you in the past, hes tried to play dumb by saying "but the food wont keep that long". Seriously frozen meals in the freezer wont keep two weeks !

Oh and he gets my brother to visit on a Saturday to get other food as well! (and he has meals on wheels anyway!)

Oh and its only the meals from Morrisons supermarket he likes. Guess what - theres not one within 10 miles of him hometown and theres one 1/2 mile from my house. Lucky that eh?

Yes many times when I've said "can't visit I'll get it delivered" hes said no for a variety reasons:-

1. "I've just checked and I'll manage until next week". I've pointed out MANY times "why is not urgent now then?"  Of course, its his way of making out that he can "just about manage" but I'd really better not miss next week because it will be urgent then.
2. "Don't want a stranger knocking the door". Really? Hope the postman never delivers anything then....
3. Don't want to pay for delivery. Its like £2 and I'll pay anyway. Certainly cheaper than me driving 50 miles or so!

Botton line is he is fighting against having groceries delivered. He thinks its a slippery slope. Once I've done it once he loses a bit of power.

I KNOW its all a scam. Its all about him forcing me to visit and I KNOW he gets pleasure knowing someone is doing something for him. Crazy or what?


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Sidney37

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BUT I'm not at the stage yet where I just say NO without explanation. WW3 will start. Not sure I'm quite ready for it just yet.

This last paragraph is the hardest part.  I totally get it. It took me years of being ready.  Years.  I thought i could handle.  I thought I could make progress with her by changing my behavior.  Several therapists convinced me that i could train her to act differently. I finally read ďBoundariesĒ and made the decision this spring.  I spent all summer dealing with the fall out.  For me it was worth it.

Last April I decided what I was going to say when  my uPDM was overstepping and totally undermining my parenting .  ďThatís ok.  Thanks.   I am DDís parent and I will take care of it.Ē  It was a minor issue of teen DD talking back and a minor consequence for it.  I decided to say something that all of my adult friends can say to their parents without repercussions.  I was terrified to say it.  People without PD parents would think that was crazy.  I was shaking when I said it.  WW3 of insulting, crying, making threats to leave, telling my kids how mean I was, etc. all happened for telling uNPDm kindly that I would handle a minor situation with DD.   The nastiness got worse over a few other minor boundaries and by July there were medical emergencies and suicide threats.  Now Iím NC. 

I think our minds often go to the worst consequences our PDs have fished out or worse.  Everyone has had different levels of consequences.  I was even afraid of posting full details or the exact truth here for years for fear they would find me and punish me.  Iím pretty sure I started here by changing details of situations and the ages and genders of my kids.  I was terrified of consequences.  The consequences of setting boundaries and breaking things off with a PD boyfriend led to catastrophic consequences for me many years ago.  It can be scary to set boundaries. 

What does his WW3 look like?  Can you prepare yourself for it?  I found that WI and others were right.  Most PDs follow the same ďgame planĒ of sorts.  The punishments ramp up in a similar way. 

Itís easy for us to say to just order the groceries but we donít have to deal with the emotions of WW3.  What we can all do is guarantee is that you will feel better after WW3 and you come out healthier and stronger on the other side.

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WomanInterrupted

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Sidney has a really good point:  what does WWIII look like?  What does it entail?  What are you so afraid will happen?  Is it what your father will do or say?
 
Only you know the answers to those questions - they vary from person to person.  :yes:

With me, I was afraid of the specters of my childhood:  unBPD Didi and unNPD Ray, the all powerful PARENTS who MUST be obeyed - or ELSE there would be hell to pay!   :spooked:

I had to look at the situation objectively - I was no longer that frightened little girl, who had nowhere to hide.  I'd become an *adult* - and I wasn't stuck in a room with Didi and Ray, screaming at me, or Didi threatening suicide, while claiming everybody would blame me.  >:(

I lived on my own - and mostly communicated by phone.  If I heard anything I didn't like, I could hang up, or if Didi threatened suicide, I could call 911.  :yes:

Those fears of childhood were *empty* fears - Didi and Ray couldn't get to me, if *I didn't allow it.*  8-)

They'd also gotten older and were no longer the physical threats they'd once been.  In fact, *I'm* the most physically imposing, just because I'm younger!   :)

Didi and Ray had *words.*  That's ALL they had in their attempt to bring WWIII to my doorstep - angry words, words designed to make me pity them, orders barked at me that I never listened to.  Just words.

Didi would also have herself hospitalized for no reason, thinking I *should* come running - but I never did, because I knew what she was doing, and wasn't going to fall for it.   :no:

I was much more comfortable at my house, so I stayed here, instead - and posted about that stuff, often.  :yes:

Once you start looking into your fears and peeling back the layers, you might surprise yourself in finding those fears *seemed* a lot worse than the reality.

Sometimes - as I'm finding now - the biggest battles we have are in our own heads.

 :hug:

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GettingOOTF

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One of Pete Walkers 13 Steps is to remind yourself that you are an adult now. You arenít a helpless child. This really helps me reframe my families attacks. As scary as they are they canít actually do anything to me and that fear is just a flashback from when I was a child.

As an adult you can walk away from WWIII. You can block your phone, you can leave your house or call the police. You are safe now and have tools to remove yourself from any situation.

Your father is going to do what he is going to do.  You cannot prepare him in anyway that will change his eventual reaction once he realizes heís lost control of you.

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illogical

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The bottom line is that your dad is not going to change.

The only variable in the equation is YOU.  You can decide to push back on his abuse.  You can decide not to give in to his whims.  You can decide you are not going to be the Scapegoat in this dysfunctional drama.  You can decide to make your own decisions, draw boundaries and not let his tantrums influence your decision.  You can decide he's not going to disrupt you and your family.  You can decide he's not going to ruin your Halloween, Christmas, or any other holiday.

The power rests with you.  And only you. 

Regarding WWIII?  Let him rage.  Let him rant.  Let him try to manufacture chaos by faking medical emergencies. 

You don't have to participate in that.  You can refuse to be a part of it, by refusing to give any response to his tirade.  Step outside of the drama.  Walk off the stage.

I have been in your shoes.  I have felt obligated, guilted and felt fear of my NM.  But once you realize that they are seriously mentally ill and that you cannot change them, and they are only going to continue to make your life a living hell, you can take back your power.  You can shut down the drama and refuse to be a part of it.  Scared?  Be scared.  But take action.  It's the only way you are going to have a life.  Remarking on this website about your father, talking about his antics and his bad behavior, saying you need to do this and you need to do that, but making excuses why you can't-- well, that's okay, we get it, but nothing will change in your life.  We can hold your hand, but you have to take the first step in setting boundaries.

Not trying to be harsh here, just letting you know that I've been there and in order to change your life, YOU have to change.  Because your brother won't and your dad won't. 

"Applying logic to potentially illogical behaviour is to construct a house on shifting foundations.  The structure will inevitably collapse."

__Stewart Stafford

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p123

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Sidney has a really good point:  what does WWIII look like?  What does it entail?  What are you so afraid will happen?  Is it what your father will do or say?
 
Only you know the answers to those questions - they vary from person to person.  :yes:

With me, I was afraid of the specters of my childhood:  unBPD Didi and unNPD Ray, the all powerful PARENTS who MUST be obeyed - or ELSE there would be hell to pay!   :spooked:

I had to look at the situation objectively - I was no longer that frightened little girl, who had nowhere to hide.  I'd become an *adult* - and I wasn't stuck in a room with Didi and Ray, screaming at me, or Didi threatening suicide, while claiming everybody would blame me.  >:(

I lived on my own - and mostly communicated by phone.  If I heard anything I didn't like, I could hang up, or if Didi threatened suicide, I could call 911.  :yes:

Those fears of childhood were *empty* fears - Didi and Ray couldn't get to me, if *I didn't allow it.*  8-)

They'd also gotten older and were no longer the physical threats they'd once been.  In fact, *I'm* the most physically imposing, just because I'm younger!   :)

Didi and Ray had *words.*  That's ALL they had in their attempt to bring WWIII to my doorstep - angry words, words designed to make me pity them, orders barked at me that I never listened to.  Just words.

Didi would also have herself hospitalized for no reason, thinking I *should* come running - but I never did, because I knew what she was doing, and wasn't going to fall for it.   :no:

I was much more comfortable at my house, so I stayed here, instead - and posted about that stuff, often.  :yes:

Once you start looking into your fears and peeling back the layers, you might surprise yourself in finding those fears *seemed* a lot worse than the reality.

Sometimes - as I'm finding now - the biggest battles we have are in our own heads.

 :hug:

I've thought about this....

I would get a phone call literally every 5 minutes. I'd have to disconnect the phone. I'd get the same from my brother once dad told him - I'd have to block him.
Dad would even phone my work place if this didnt work.

Next stage would be an engineered admission to hospital. Then he'd get the hospital to call me (hes done this before).

But yes I can see what you mean.