Visit every fortnight (for groceries) - back is bad should I say no weekend?

[GettingOOTF]

Good for you  for holding your boundaries. That's progress. You can't control his reaction and you know him enough to know what his reactions will be, but you can control your time and behaviour through consistent boundaries.

I found that as I got better at boundaries I was able to heal and see their behaviour for what it was. My family ate actually worse to me than they used to be but it bothers me far less as I know there is nothing they can do to me and my boundaries are firm. 

[SunnyMeadow]

Me - "Dad I told you I was busy"
Dad - "Doing what?"

Usual behaviour. Ignore what I said. Play the guilt card. Expect me to justify why I didnt do what he wanted. Jeez every time :-(

Yes, usual behavior. He's not reading websites on how to change but you are.

Now you see it for what it is, you get to adjust your reactions. His reactions are consistent and yours are changing. It's ok for him to whine and pout. It's what they do to try and guilt us into action. I acknowledge my mom does this and I've changed my reaction to it. With her it feels like a toddler reacting to simple life issues and I don't have time to care anymore.

It's ok to hear him, know he's waifing about your lack of action and then just....go about your life with your immediate family. Cut any phone call short when he goes on as usual. It's up to you to change you.

I'm happy that you didn't go over to his house on Sunday! I hope you enjoyed your day off.

[p123]

Me - "Dad I told you I was busy"
Dad - "Doing what?"

Usual behaviour. Ignore what I said. Play the guilt card. Expect me to justify why I didnt do what he wanted. Jeez every time :-(

Yes, usual behavior. He's not reading websites on how to change but you are.

Now you see it for what it is, you get to adjust your reactions. His reactions are consistent and yours are changing. It's ok for him to whine and pout. It's what they do to try and guilt us into action. I acknowledge my mom does this and I've changed my reaction to it. With her it feels like a toddler reacting to simple life issues and I don't have time to care anymore.

It's ok to hear him, know he's waifing about your lack of action and then just....go about your life with your immediate family. Cut any phone call short when he goes on as usual. It's up to you to change you.

I'm happy that you didn't go over to his house on Sunday! I hope you enjoyed your day off.

Sunny- yes I'm getting better. When he asks now I say "Im busy", when he tries "can you make an effort or I've been stuck in all week" I just ignore him.

Hes trying now "phone me early to let me know". Hes twigging that if I ignore him, then phone him sunday evening its too late. So he wants me to phone midday so hes get an extra bite at it and a chance to say "why? where are you going?"

I've now started to provide as little info as possible, He never argues but I'm sure he asks why because hes waiting for me to run out of excuses.

Saturday will be fun. This is my week on my brothers imagined Saturday ROTA. Not happening. I told him but he probably wont listen.

[p123]

Well its going well. Not heard from brother since last time.....

Still go to Dads every other sunday and hes not moaned for a while. He may well do this coming weekend. This is the "set in stone" visit but Im busy all day. It is xmas after all and we're taking daughter to see santa. He won't like.

I'm thinking about whether to just say no it'll have to be three weeks this time or go on a friday evening or something. hmmm.

I did offer a solution to the betting issue on a saturday morning.  I'd be happy to do it online on betfair for him. BUT they dont take 10p (13c) bets and god forbid he changes his ideas. No too expensive.... Oh well do without then.

[WomanInterrupted]

You wrote:

It is xmas after all and we're taking daughter to see santa. He won't like.

Of course he won't like it - so don't tell him.  Stick to being BUSY.  If asked what you're busy with, be a broken record.

"I just told you I'm busy..." - and change the subject immediately or end the call. 

You wrote:

I'm thinking about whether to just say no it'll have to be three weeks this time or go on a friday evening or something. hmmm.

That's up to you, but you DECIDE and you DO.  You don't give him a choice or a say - you TELL him and then you DO.   

Personally, I'd let him go 3 weeks to start weaning him off your visits - and it also makes you less dependable and reliable, which is *exactly* what you want to be. 

I wouldn't answer any more than *one* of his calls before blocking him for the next couple of weeks, and anything he needs?  He can figure it out on his own or call your brother.

Oh - and just say NO to placing bets for him.  He wants to place bets?  He can figure out how to do it without your help. 

Why?  Unless you get money from him in advance (doubtful), you'll probably be fronting your own money, and he'll probably conveniently "forget" to pay you back - he doesn't have it this time, he'll catch you next time, you bet on the wrong horse (you didn't   ), you didn't listen to him or follow his directions - there will always be a reason why His Pseudo-Skint Waify Majesty will never be able to pay you back, while expecting you to keep placing bets FOR him. 

If you did it once, it is now your job - and he'll nickel and dime you to death, if you let him. 

The best way to prevent it is not to start in the first place - you're trying to make him let go of your pant leg.  Placing bets for him only tightens his grip and he'll have even MORE reason to want you over there more often!   

[p123]

Heres a classic from Dad. Another win for me because I did stand my ground.

Brother goes over on a Saturday am to go to the betting shop for Dad. (Brother lives a mile away)

Its 400 yards from his house - he wont go on his scooter because "they wont let me in the shop will they?" Have you asked. No. I even offered to call the betting shop to clear it with them. "No I dont want to take my scooter into the betting shop". Leave it outside then. "No I dont want to leave it on the pavement."

So anyway, I've had this "discussion" with both my brother and Dad. I'm not coming over Saturday am driving 25 miles each way because 1) My wife works so I take daughter to gymnastics classes and 2) Shes 6 I cant take into betting shop so hows that going to work? (It town centre so cant park outside). So this was two weeks ago - he just nodded.

Yesterday, "your brother is away, you'll HAVE to come over Saturday am to go to the betting shop for me". NO!!!!!!!!!!! So I said look Dad I'm happy to do the bet online for you but theres a minimum. OK.

So I found out - it'd be £8. Oh no he wont do that because he only likes to spend a fiver when he has a bet. So can I still come over?

So hang on now, I drive 50 miles round trip, 2 hours plus out of my day, my daughter misses her gymnastics so you don't have to spend £3 more than you wanted? OMG. Lets just say it took all my power to just say NO! Did you not listen the other week when I said it was not possible?

Hes not speaking to me now because I won't do this "one thing" for him. And apparently I need to tell my wife not to work Saturdays so she can have my daughter freeing me up to drive over to put his bet on. As if.

I'm sorry but putting money on the horses is not a basic human need. He annoys me so much sometimes with his selfishness.

Getting better at the straight NOs now....

To be honest, his requests are becoming more and more unreasonable which makes it easier for me if anything.

[p123]

Why?  Unless you get money from him in advance (doubtful), you'll probably be fronting your own money, and he'll probably conveniently "forget" to pay you back - he doesn't have it this time, he'll catch you next time, you bet on the wrong horse (you didn't   ), you didn't listen to him or follow his directions - there will always be a reason why His Pseudo-Skint Waify Majesty will never be able to pay you back, while expecting you to keep placing bets FOR him. 

If you did it once, it is now your job - and he'll nickel and dime you to death, if you let him. 

The best way to prevent it is not to start in the first place - you're trying to make him let go of your pant leg.  Placing bets for him only tightens his grip and he'll have even MORE reason to want you over there more often!   

Hmm yes tempted to let it go three weeks. Im a little sick of this "set in stone" every two weeks. There no need for it.
Hes ok with money - thats one thing. He will pay me straight away. Hes got plenty, he knows that - he wont risk giving me an excuse for not doing it.

Oh yes that another reason why he doesnt like the online bet idea. Same as the food. Its a way I could totally offline him ha ha

[Adrianna]

You're doing great! You're setting a boundary. He doesn't like it so will be mad. His issue not yours.

Once you start to step Out of the FOG you see how incredibly outrageous their demands are and how they can't take any interest or concern for you, your life, your family, your time, etc. It's truly all about them.

Stay strong. You're on the right path. You'll know you're making progress when you set a boundary and feel no guilt over it, and are unaffected by the backlash.

[p123]

You're doing great! You're setting a boundary. He doesn't like it so will be mad. His issue not yours.

Once you start to step Out of the FOG you see how incredibly outrageous their demands are and how they can't take any interest or concern for you, your life, your family, your time, etc. It's truly all about them.

Stay strong. You're on the right path. You'll know you're making progress when you set a boundary and feel no guilt over it, and are unaffected by the backlash.

Yes its just crazy when you think of what they want. I listed them down and then though of the alternatives and its just so crazy that he expects that.

I used to have a lot of guilt about things. I'd do "this one thing"  then it got more and more. Then it started to affect my family. Then when you step back you think "well there are other options why have I got to do it this way". Then he pushed back, he wanted it done this way. It was then I realised he didnt want or need these things he just wanted to be in control I guess.

Now when he demands these things, I offer alternatives which I can do. If he refuses then I think, OK, I've done my best.

Trouble is strangers and the rest of the family  see "this one thing" that I refuse to do. Its only when they see more or he starts on them (which he does) that they also realise.

[WomanInterrupted]

Good for sticking to your boundaries!   

It's always going to be "just one thing." 

Always.

But when does "just one thing" stop?  How many  times have you done "just one thing" for him - only to have another "just one thing" piled on top of that? 

It never ends.  Your dad sees  each event as "just one thing" but I see it as death by 1,000 paper cuts - and only YOU can make the endless line of "just one thing" stop. 

If your dad is giving you the Silent Treat - GOOD.  Take advantage of it.  BASK in the silence and *enjoy* it - instead of feeling dread that he's angry with you, hopefully you're feeling elated that you're free, at least for the time being - and that freedom is worth fighting for!   

It is *much* easier to say no when you're angry or annoyed - and  you're starting to get annoyed, which is *great!* 

Your eyes are really opening to how much he takes advantage of you and manipulates you! 

Once you see it, you can't unsee it - and it makes it a lot easier to use your *boundaries.* 

It's these small victories that inspire, and prove to us that yes, we CAN take our lives back, and it really is NOT all about what your dad wants or thinks he needs.

Small victories lead to more boundaries and saying no - and more Silent Treats, angry calls from your brother (block him if you need to), your father trying to blow up your phone (block him, too!), threats of suicide (call the authorities) and probably sudden emergencies and the need to go to the ER (if he won't call an ambulance, call one FOR him).

And yes - you can withstand anything your dad and brother throw at you with your newfound  boundaries and ability to say no - you really can! 

Any time your father "suggests" you tell your wife this or that, or sort her, or sort your son, you've got a couple of choices:

1.  "I'll take that under advisement, dad."  (Medium Chill)

2.  "It's not 1950.  I'm not going to do that."  (In other words, NO! - and what I'd say.) 

Your father is NOT going to like any of this, but that's really not important.  You're not doing it to punish him, but reclaim *your* life and time - and so you can put your FOC first, where they belong. 

How much more time - and how many more holidays - are you willing to sacrifice to somebody who can only think of himself and his own needs, and doesn't care if it inconveniences you or completely disrupts your schedule, or how far you have to drive just to save him three quid. 

Yeah - that made TOTAL sense to me - NOT. 

The only luck I had with unBPD Didi and unNPD Ray was pushing back on everything with an automatic NO.

Everything.  It didn't matter what it was - the answer was, "I can't do that."  "That's not possible."  "I'll see what I can do, but it's not looking good."  or "Call an ambulance." 

Each, in their turn, was determined to become totally dependent on me for their care and each, in their turn, found out  that   just wasn't going to happen - and didn't, because I  forced the issue and wouldn't budge. 

I think you'll get to that point pretty quickly, because I think your dad is *really* going to raise the annoyance level of "just one thing" to new heights. 

Be prepared - and just keep saying no.   

Never mind what strangers think - they don't walk in your shoes or live your life.

[nanotech]

Yes, never mind what others think. They don't know the whole story. Not even a sniff of what you've been through.
I fell into the two -weekly Sundays with my dad. It became Set. In. Stone.
It was fair enough at first, because he had  just lost his wife, my mum. But after many months of it, it became very binding, and his  increasingly entitled behaviour suggested that all the attention wasn't helping him feel or act any better.

In short, as I continued to comply,  he became even more expectant and demanding.

I managed to break the pattern by gradually 'having things to do'( with the kids or work ).
I stretched it to three weeks, then a month. Then it flexed even more.   

Initially, he grumped about it loudly, was abrupt with me and he upped his sarcasm. He was horrible at times. I medium chilled all that, surfed  pressure waves demanding dates/ meals etc, meeting the onslaught with  quiet assertiveness. Time buyers-  ' Let me have a think and get back to you' , ' I think we have plans' or simply ' That day isn't good for me dad.'
I stood my ground also, using plenty of medium chill and ' broken record' -
then something interesting happened.

He backed off and backed down- got nicer! Began to express thanks and compliment me.
You see, it's sad but true, that we DO actually, hold all the cards. 

It's a magic trick that we think we don't! 

When we were little, THEY did. As they got older, and we became adults, they gaslighted and fear mongered  and guilt tripped us into thinking nothing has changed.
But as soon as we assert ourselves, it's as if the crazy made -up bubble pops, and then  AMAZINGLY, they really will often take a lot less.
Because they don't want to end up with nothing.
And they fear they could.
I think deep down, they know they exploited their own power, when we were little, vulnerable and dependent upon them. So they feel now, that they have to be super hard on us, or we would do that too.
But we wouldn't, of course.

So they don't compromise, on ANYTHING.

Until we see if for what it is and say our first 'NO'.

It's the Wizard of Oz.
We always had the power.
Click them heels!

PS.
I agree withWI - place no more bets for him. I think he gets more kicks out of sending you to do it, than the actual bet itself!
It's the placing of you in a servile ( child?) role.

It reminds me when my dad told me with unfettered glee that he knew 'how I was was going to be spending my 60th birthday!'
He then proceeded to tell me that I was going to be driving him to and from a big city I hardly know and have never driven in, all for a hospital procedure he doesn't need.
I straightaway said 'nope'  dad, 'I'm not going to be doing that!'

He had to make other arrangements. And guess what, the sky didn't fall in.

[p123]

Well, well it looks like I won this battle....

Hes phoned me and asked if I mind doing his bet online on Saturday for him. Even though its £8. Yes I will I said- it'll take 5 minutes.

Brother apparently is not happy. Dad had to mention he'd said "I don't see why he cant come up anyway" BUT I ignored that one. I've told them both more than once the reasons and that's the end of it.

But you're both right about the servitude. That's more important than the actual task itself. If he REALLY wanted to put a bet on he could ride his scooter the 400 yards to the shop. I guess hes settled for my 5 mins of doing something rather than 2 hours.

OK next thing - this weekend. I am busy this weekend both days. First weekend my wife hasnt worked for ages - we're taking daughter to see Santa at different places on each day. Nano - I'd forgotten it was set in stone sunday! He mentioned it the other day "you ARE coming to visit sunday aren't you?"

Bugger. No I can't make it. Trouble is the weekend after is looking even worse.

Im out with a friend Friday evening - its about 5 miles from where he lives. I'm toying with the idea of visiting then. Or go for the big 4 WEEKS gap? Then again it close to xmas then too! Trouble is Im going out with a friend and driving. Can I really take ANOTHER LECTURE of how I shouldn't go into a pub when I've got the car because I'll be tempted to drink drive and get arrested. Not sure my brain can cope with 20 mins of that rubbish!

WI - yes his attitude to my wife. She hates him at the moment. I've only told her about 10% of what hes said. I'm too scared to tell her what he says he expects her to do. She would exploded literally! I'm a bit scared :-) But nope you're right its 1952 in my Dads head - you're wife does what you say, cooks,cleans, does the laundry and thats it. And, as he told me the other day, in his day it worked better because you could give him a slap and it didn't hurt anyone. Jeez.....

Honestly, if I even laid a fingernail on my dear wife, I'd wake up to find she;d thought of a good use for the breadknife.

[illogical]

p123, I think that's great you held the line on your boundary!  I would be feeling pretty proud of that right now.   

A comment about "servitude".  My NM (deceased now) wanted me to drive over to her house (about an hour away) after my dad died and take her grocery shopping.  This would have been the epitome of inefficient, as she would have to pick up every food item and weigh the pros and cons of buying it and I might still be there, at the market, years later, lol.  After I did this for her a few times, I figured out it was wasting vast amounts of my time.

So I gave her an alternative-- you read me the list of what you want over the phone and I'll combine it with my weekly shopping.  No, I wasn't going to her grocery, I was going to mine.  I would drop off the items on my way home (even though it was about an hour out of my way).  That was the deal.

She accepted it, reluctantly.  Then she wanted me to stay at her house and put everything away.  I said "No", I've got to get going before my items spoil, knowing full well she was capable of putting the items away.  Well, guess what?  A week went by and she called, saying she had gotten a neighbor to do her grocery shopping and I wasn't needed anymore! 

The lesson I learned from that was she was capable of doing way more than what she let on, and if I let myself, she would use me up.  Also, offering her a reasonable alternative was the way to go.  If she didn't take it, well, too bad.  I had nothing to feel guilty about. She just wanted me to basically be her companion.  And I didn't sign up for that. 

You are really making great progress here!  I think you are building confidence to jump over the "Xmas hurdle."  You can do it!

[p123]

p123, I think that's great you held the line on your boundary!  I would be feeling pretty proud of that right now.   

A comment about "servitude".  My NM (deceased now) wanted me to drive over to her house (about an hour away) after my dad died and take her grocery shopping.  This would have been the epitome of inefficient, as she would have to pick up every food item and weigh the pros and cons of buying it and I might still be there, at the market, years later, lol.  After I did this for her a few times, I figured out it was wasting vast amounts of my time.

So I gave her an alternative-- you read me the list of what you want over the phone and I'll combine it with my weekly shopping.  No, I wasn't going to her grocery, I was going to mine.  I would drop off the items on my way home (even though it was about an hour out of my way).  That was the deal.

She accepted it, reluctantly.  Then she wanted me to stay at her house and put everything away.  I said "No", I've got to get going before my items spoil, knowing full well she was capable of putting the items away.  Well, guess what?  A week went by and she called, saying she had gotten a neighbor to do her grocery shopping and I wasn't needed anymore! 

The lesson I learned from that was she was capable of doing way more than what she let on, and if I let myself, she would use me up.  Also, offering her a reasonable alternative was the way to go.  If she didn't take it, well, too bad.  I had nothing to feel guilty about. She just wanted me to basically be her companion.  And I didn't sign up for that. 

You are really making great progress here!  I think you are building confidence to jump over the "Xmas hurdle."  You can do it!

Cheers illogical. An hour away - wow!

Dad is 30mins away. He doesnt come shopping he expects me to do it. He likes food from a certain supermarket and guess what, theres one 1/2 mile from my house but not one in his town. Funny that!

When I do it he gets annoyed if I spend more than £20. Really. He has "meals on wheels" so I know he probably only needs things once a month but he wont let it go.

Im at that stage now. It got to the point where I thought "theres a way easier way to achieve this why am I letting myself be blackmailed".
Ive started offering a solution or what I will do and then when he pushes back I just oh well I did my best.

[nanotech]

This is actually your chance to really get out of that damn fog.
The four week gap might happen- and so what?
Dig in.
I've had a battle of wills over the summer. It's about my dad and his driving. He liked to drive over to our home (two hour round trip) -then stay for hours. We take him out, we bring him home to our house, he stays and stays.

And stays.

It's the complete opposite of what my parents used to do when I was at home when my kids were young and hubby worked VERY long hours. I'm talking 80 hours a week. I was lonely. That's not a complaint, but I do remember that's what happened. As a family then, we didn't live in each other's pockets and I didn't see a lot of them. They never had the kids overnight or even for an afternoon unless it was an emergency.
Moan over.
( they were very different grandparents when GC brother's child was born, but that's another story).

I love dad, but he never even draws breath when he's with us, for all of those hours, and it's all negative and arrogant.
I felt shattered and drained last time.

I worried about his driving himself at 87, so I said no to visits unless we picked him up and dropped him off.
It's a hassle I know but I just think he shouldn't now be driving on dual carriageways.

Result has been a massive summer sulk.

My gap since I've seen him?

It will be six months soon!
Six months free of negative chat and sarcasm. Yeah!

I'm sure my siblings are calling me all the names, but
I'm unbothered. He's finally given in and also has stopped his night driving.
Again, sky hasn't fallen in.
I got off that treadmill where I was put in competition with my sibs. They can't believe iti suppose,but what can they actually do?
I might get disinherited but it's honestly worth more to be emotionally healthy!

[nanotech]

It's worked too. He's letting us pick him up Christmas Day and we will drop him home later on.
It does work- you just have to hold your nerve and prepare for the inevitable tanty/ silent treat/ rudeness and ( worst one)- the sustained, prolonged, repeated ad nausea insistence that you are wrong, and he is right. .

[p123]

It's worked too. He's letting us pick him up Christmas Day and we will drop him home later on.
It does work- you just have to hold your nerve and prepare for the inevitable tanty/ silent treat/ rudeness and ( worst one)- the sustained, prolonged, repeated ad nausea insistence that you are wrong, and he is right. .

Glad its worked for you.....

Yeh I should let it go. Sometimes it just drains the life out of me.....

[nanotech]

It's that first few times you say no and don't JADE. You don't try to Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain.
If you do you just end up giving them more meat to chew, more angles to attack you from.  More circular conversations develop, that's when you feel your life force being sucked out!
It took me ages to be able to tell dad ' No , I don't want to.' Then give no further explanation.
The more we reason with them, the LESS reasonable they are. It's a downward spiral- till we turn it on its head with Grey Rock and Broken Record assertiveness.
Good luck and just keep at it. Feel like the bad guy ( I did) but know that by not enabling him, you are being the best son to him.
He may not ever realise that but don't even seek the validation. The dysfunction thrives on the withholding of approval each time we disable or work against the enmeshment.

[p123]

It's that first few times you say no and don't JADE. You don't try to Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain.
If you do you just end up giving them more meat to chew, more angles to attack you from.  More circular conversations develop, that's when you feel your life force being sucked out!
It took me ages to be able to tell dad ' No , I don't want to.' Then give no further explanation.
The more we reason with them, the LESS reasonable they are. It's a downward spiral- till we turn it on its head with Grey Rock and Broken Record assertiveness.
Good luck and just keep at it. Feel like the bad guy ( I did) but know that by not enabling him, you are being the best son to him.
He may not ever realise that but don't even seek the validation. The dysfunction thrives on the withholding of approval each time we disable or work against the enmeshment.

Not JADEing is so tough though. If I say "cant do that" I get "where you going etc etc"

Like you said it gives them info for another attack. If I say going x, I've got to be careful to say what time it ends or I'll; get "oh you could pop in afterwards then".

[nanotech]

It feels really weird and a bit terrifying at first. Saying very little however, works a thousand times better than the detailed explanations we've been conditioned into giving them. But you have to say it firmly,  then repeat it.

You have to just say you've got an  appointment or a commitment or just 'plans'.
If he asks you what plans you just say oh, 'this and that'.  If he asks again, repeat like a broken record, ' this and that'. My dad gives up after he's asked three times. I thought he would rage at me when I first tried this. Nope.
You can also say  ' sorry, essential errands to run' or just say ' that time/ day won't work for me'. 
Etc
If he expresses disappointment, acknowledge his feelings, all the while repeating your decision of NO.

As in ' I can understand how you might feel that way, but that's my decision dad/ I won't be driving you/ I won't be seeing you then. '
Then talk about something else to close it down.
If he returns to it, say  firmly that you are not going back to that topic. Keep saying that. Say, 'That discussion is ended.'
It's really really hard at first but using  techniques like these and seeing them work is empowering and protecting too of course.