"Let's Work It Out" Fantasies

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Starboard Song

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"Let's Work It Out" Fantasies
« on: October 28, 2019, 02:44:58 PM »
I do it. I wake up at 3 in the morning, and I imagine getting the phone call that my FIL wants to talk.

It is a silly endless loop, of course. The whole point of NC was that engagement with them was always trial and error. And the errors had become too painful and too readily predictable. You do not engage in trial and error when doing so is cruel and fruitless.

And yet I imagine the call. Sometimes in these daydreams I take the "admit I was right" path, where I drag him through certain important points to see if he can now agree to the nose on his face. Other nights it is the "do you still believe it was correct and decent to ______" path, essentially a humility test. And there are other approaches.

But at the end of them is the same reality: what it takes to rebuild trust at this point is too crazy high to ever be achieved, and I will not drag my DW and DS through a test engagement with them. So why the fantasies?

I believe in engagement. I'm a little guy. I survived all these years by persuasion and engagement. I refuse to believe that at least conversation cannot pay off. So one day, if they ever do have the temerity to engage me, I will engage. They won't like my approach when that time comes. Whatever path I take it will be a very hard time for them. I'll be kind and loving, but will demand they walk back through it all, word by word, to determine whether they've achieved transformational change. They will not have done so.

Transformational change has occurred. It occurred in our home on they day that we declared No More! Enough!!!
Radical Acceptance, by Brach   |   Self-Compassion, by Neff    |   Mindfulness, by Williams   |   The Book of Joy, by the Dalai Lama and Tutu
Healing From Family Rifts, by Sichel   |  Stop Walking on Egshells, by Mason    |    Emotional Blackmail, by Susan Forward

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sarandro

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Re: "Let's Work It Out" Fantasies
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2019, 03:48:29 PM »
Hi Starboard Song!
It sounds to me that you do that thing I do...a lot!  Want to give 'em all another chance to ....
acknowledge, apologise or accept responsibility for their actions.

It makes folk like us feel like we still need some sort of closure, one way of another, which is why we might find ourselves waking up in the night and fantasising.

My NC with those concerned has made me realise that no amount of wishful thinking on my part will EVER make any difference in my interactions with them.
I have lowered my expectations of them to understand and act on that realisation....and my expectations of myself have diminished slowly but inevitably until...I realise I don't need to care so much.

Like you say, one day there might be the confrontation, but we will be the ones who are the most prepared for it, having spent so much of our mental energy working through every single scenario....just in case!!!!

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theonetoblame

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Re: "Let's Work It Out" Fantasies
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2019, 04:11:14 PM »
I do/did the same thing, although it gets to be less and less over time which has always been the goal.

In retrospect, it felt like I was always preparing for the confrontation that eventually never happened. I wanted accountability, I wanted to be loved, I wanted the adults in my life when I was a child to act like accountable and responsible adults -- they just never did. The internal 'chats' I had with the perpetrators in my life were often accompanied by sympathetic nervous system arousal that might keep me up at night in a fight or flight state of being. Sometimes my 'nice guy' logic would simply give way to fantasies of directly confronting people in an aggressive manner. I think this was just frustration and sadness coming out as angry fantasy though. Although a thought may be first cousin to an action, I have never come close to this.

My wife coined the term "if it could be different, it would have been different", which sums it up nicely for me. If things could be different in the future they would have been different in the past. Some people have a 'growth' mindset and way of being in the world, I am one of those people. The people who hurt me with their PD nonsense have a static growth mindset and way of being in the world -- they are simply not going to change and no fantasy about 'helping' or 'forcing' them to will alter this outcome.

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Psuedonym

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Re: "Let's Work It Out" Fantasies
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2019, 04:39:18 PM »
I refuse to believe that at least conversation cannot pay off.

Sorry, but it won't. If they are truly PD, and it sounds like they are from what you've said about them, they do not have the ability to self-reflect or take accountability for their actions. It's what makes them PD. There is no rational argument that will get through to them. I have not spoken to Negatron in 10 months; my BF, who is a rational and level-headed as they come, has had many conversations with her about how she needs to change her behavior if I'm EVER going to have anything to do with her again. Her response has been half of what's listed in the 100 Traits section :). He just talked to her today and she was irate that a vm she left on MY phone had not been responded too. He told her I didn't listen to her messages (again). She raged out, he told her he needed to go and when she wouldn't stop raging, he hung up on her. So she called back and left him a message calling him a coward. The reason for the messages in the first place? She wanted a favor from him/us.

  :stars:

I understand the desire to have it out with them in your head; I do that a lot, too. But know that all of it is fruitless. There is no logic in the world that will make them see the light. They just don't want to, unfortunately.

 :bighug:


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moglow

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Re: "Let's Work It Out" Fantasies
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2019, 05:05:38 PM »
Quote
They won't like my approach when that time comes. Whatever path I take it will be a very hard time for them. I'll be kind and loving, but will demand they walk back through it all, word by word, to determine whether they've achieved transformational change. They will not have done so.
This is where I want to be and am working towards, imagining the unimaginable. I've dared step outside the mold into which I was forced decades ago, the one that says only complete and utter compliance and agreement with her will ever be acceptable. As mother pushed screechingly further and further, I learned to step back quietly. I use reason, measure my words, and have [unfortunately] outright laughed as some of the depths to which she's sunk, but overall I've stepped away. I'm not supposed to do that - I'm supposed to engage, be angry, hand her ammunition for the next round.
“Nothing exposes our true self more than how we treat each other in the home.”  ~ Joseph B. Wirthlin

Stop Stinkin' Thinkin'!

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DaisyGirl77

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Re: "Let's Work It Out" Fantasies
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2019, 08:03:35 PM »
But at the end of them is the same reality: what it takes to rebuild trust at this point is too crazy high to ever be achieved, and I will not drag my DW and DS through a test engagement with them. So why the fantasies?

I believe in engagement. I'm a little guy. I survived all these years by persuasion and engagement. I refuse to believe that at least conversation cannot pay off. So one day, if they ever do have the temerity to engage me, I will engage. They won't like my approach when that time comes. Whatever path I take it will be a very hard time for them. I'll be kind and loving, but will demand they walk back through it all, word by word, to determine whether they've achieved transformational change. They will not have done so.

Because there's still a part of you who believes that "if I just try this one more time, they might just see why we had to drop off the radar."  I still have my rose-colored glasses on.  I believe the best in people & give them a thousand chances to improve before I cry uncle & give up.

That being said, there are 4-5 people I will never break NC with.  That's my dad's mother, his brother, his niece (& quite possibly her husband, although I have questions there), & a coworker who so blatantly sabotaged me, her backup, while she was on vacation that I will never trust a word out of her mouth again.  The family members I listed damaged/delighted in my role as SG while living with Dad's mom, & firebombed the relationships so badly that we might as well be in different universes.  The only thing I feel toward them is 100% anger.  It's been 6.5 years since I left that abusive, qualifies-as-DV situation, & I'm STILL working on taming those flaming hot swords of anger to a manageable level in therapy.  Maybe one day I can handle being in the same room as them without wanting to destroy them as they did me.  (Story in my signature.)  Other than that, there is absolutely zero opportunity for reconciliation.

Then there's my uNM.  There's a little girl inside me who just wants her mama.  But Adult Daisy knows that her mom isn't safe.  She's never been a safe person, not where I'm concerned.  I have to be Little Daisy's mom when she comes out looking for comfort.  There's nowhere else I can turn.  If a miracle happens where uNM is concerned, will I welcome her back into my life?  My answer is 99% no.  The 1% says "let me observe your supposed 'changes' over a period of decades & maybe I'll give you a chance."  I've given her thousands of chances.  I've told her a million times exactly what needs to change.  I've only ever seen half-hearted attempts at changing before declaring that she's "too old to change, & you'll have to change for me."  This was just one of many things she'd said over 20-odd years that sounded the death knell to the tattered relationship we had.  This is my second round of NC (going on 4 years now) with her.  This one is permanent.  I'm just done fighting for what she freely gives my sisters.
I lived with my dad's uPD mom for 3.5 years.  This is my story:  http://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=59780.0  (TW for abuse descriptions.)

"You are not required to set yourself on fire to keep others warm." - Anonymous

NC with uNM since December 2016.  VLC with uPDF.

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Penny Lane

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Re: "Let's Work It Out" Fantasies
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2019, 12:07:23 AM »
I think I've given up on "working it out." I do have fantasies about shaking BM and yelling STOP HURTING YOUR KIDS. Or where she moves away. I've been really trying to internalize radical acceptance - this is how it is, she will not change, yelling at her hurts me more than it hurts her. But man it's to accept that people can really be like this, no chance of changing or improving.

I think if I can really truly internalize radical acceptance, those dreams/fantasies will go away. But I am very far from being there.

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xredshoesx

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Re: "Let's Work It Out" Fantasies
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2019, 07:51:11 AM »
this was me at 21 trying to have a relationship with my mother still AFTER i found out the truth about how my sister really died and that she had been a person of interest in the fire that lead to her death.  it's so hard to reconcile that a parent could do such things out of greed, mental illness, whatever that i know i was in denial for a good 6 months before the truth smacked me in the face that a) my mother's greed coupled with her uPD led to the death of a child and b) me staying in contact with her in the same house would make it even easier for her to do the same thing to me....


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GettingOOTF

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Re: "Let's Work It Out" Fantasies
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2019, 09:02:16 AM »
I do not have these fantasies. I used to. I used to fantasize about people saying they were wrong and I was right about my ex and my family would come around to see the person I am, not who they want me to be.

For me personally I saw that these fantasies were a result of my codependence. This is what I have worked the hardest to overcome and what has had the biggest positive impact on my life. I still try to be a “good” person but I largely live my life independently and remind myself that what others think of me is none of my business. It’s not my job to make others see things a certain way, people are entitled to live their life the way they choose and to  think what they want. However misguided I might think they are.

I read somewhere, it may have been Beene Brown, that everyone sees things through their own lens. This made a lot of sense to me. PDs filter things through the lens of their PD and what ever happened to them to trigger their PD.

My personal path of healing has been that of working on understanding my role in my life and how I ended up making the choices I did. Once I turned the focus on my behaviors my world really opened up and I was able to let go of so much.

Right now I’m working on being present and active in my own life and taking action to have the life I want. I’m working on no longer waiting for things to work out and for others to change, I’m doing those things for myself.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 09:05:27 AM by GettingOOTF »

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Adria

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Re: "Let's Work It Out" Fantasies
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2019, 11:47:58 AM »
I know what you mean Starboard Song,

This is the hardest time of the year for me with those kinds of thoughts and feelings because my narc father will be coming south to my state for the winter. I always have these imaginations and wishful thinking that he will ask to stop by my house and make amends.  However, it's been 26 years and nothing. So, I guess I just hope for a miracle, but deep down I'm thinking he'll pass me by yet another season.  I suppose it's only natural to wish things better as so many of us do. Nobody truly wants things to be as they are. Just the cards we're dealt. :blush:

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Starboard Song

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Re: "Let's Work It Out" Fantasies
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2019, 02:20:10 PM »
Thanks, everyone. Good thread.
Radical Acceptance, by Brach   |   Self-Compassion, by Neff    |   Mindfulness, by Williams   |   The Book of Joy, by the Dalai Lama and Tutu
Healing From Family Rifts, by Sichel   |  Stop Walking on Egshells, by Mason    |    Emotional Blackmail, by Susan Forward

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all4peace

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Re: "Let's Work It Out" Fantasies
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2019, 04:16:09 PM »
Starboard, when I read your post, I think of the cognitive dissonance that's caused when someone is raised by decent people, has emotional intelligence, has always (usually?) been able to work through conflict, and then runs straight into a massively dysfunctional family system. It is absolutely  :stars:.  Dh and I ran into it first with his family when things like really basic boundaries were denied and violated on a regular basis, when someone who refused to speak to me at my own dinner table was said to "love me so much!" and, as you say, you can't even agree to super obvious and basic things. It makes our minds go a little nuts.

I'm sorry you're going through this again. It's uncomfortable and painful. I get really wobbly myself on a regular basis. Support here helps tremendously, and it also helps me to remember that they chose this. They won't see it that way, but I do believe the universe runs with rules and principles, and many of them are related to trust, safety, security and relationship, and whether they are conscious of it or not their behavior chose this level of (non)relationship. That helps me. It's still grievous, but at least I'm not re-examining myself yet again. Hang in there. Thanks for the conversation.