Will my husband ever see what his Mother is like?

[ladybirdgirl]

Hi,

I have been with my husband for 15 years, married for 1 week and his mother has NPD. I'll try and keep the backstory brief as I'm sure it is very similar to the things you guys have experienced.

She has spent years being in control of our lives, manipulating me, insulting me but doing it in such a way that she could deny it. I've always hated confrontation and have bad anxiety which she has thrived on. Things finally came to a head last year when we booked our wedding and she didn't like the choices we had made. She kicked up fuss after fuss and I had enough. I cut her out completely and saw a counsellor who validated my thoughts and feelings and made me feel like I wasn't mad after all. It was a massive relief to finally put a name to her behaviour. Our wedding was last week and she pretended like nothing had happened which in comparison so what some people have experienced was probably the best result.

Anyway the problem I'm having is with my husband, he does not see this like I do and he get's very angry with me when I even try and tell him I'm worried about what she may do next. He's very clever at making me feel like I'm the one causing problems and has learned some very bad behaviour from his mother.

In the past week she has turned up at my house twice and tried to add me on social media. This has resulted In me trying to talk to my husband about my worries as I am scared to answer my front door but he ends up shouting at me and blaming me because he doesn't think there is an issue. She is going through a divorce with husbands Dad currently and before the wedding was causing so much drama that even my husband hardly saw her. Things were great then, we've never gotten on so well in our relationship. Now we're back to dealing with her and her interference and he doesn't see the problem. He's taking the kids over more than before and I'm worried he's going to ask for her to have them unsupervised which is a big no now for me, I don't trust her.

I suppose what I'm getting at is how do I separate myself from this? I so want him to wake up that I am saying the wrong things in the heat of the moment and making it worse. Will he ever see what everyone else see's? The frustration and sadness I feel at this situation is unreal.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

[Leonor]

 Of hugs are o.k.,



I wish I could answer your questions, but I can't even answer mine.

But I know how it feels, and I'm sorry.

[all4peace]

ladybirdgirl, I'm so sorry for the difficulty your MIL is and has been causing in your life and now marriage. Is there any possibility for you and your DH to get counseling, or for you to get counseling on your own? It's hard to singlehandedly declare and maintain boundaries if your DH isn't going to back you up.

[ladybirdgirl]

Thank you Leonor for your reply and I'm sorry that you know how this feels. I hope your are ok.

All4peace thank you for taking the time to reply to me. I finished counselling a few months ago and it really helped me deal with it all a little bit better. We did speak about having counselling together but my husband says one minute that he will and then when it actually comes to booking an appointment says that there's nothing he needs to speak about and there wouldn't be any point.

He agreed to the boundaries before when she wasn't in our lives so much but as soon as she is around things start to change again.

I wish that he could see what she is really like.

[lotusblume]

You are his wife and his primary loyalty should belong to you. If you have issues with your MIL that are not only affecting you, but being invalidated and defended by your husband, his loyalty is still fluctuating at best. It sounds like he is in deep denial.

I would say to him, "I understand that you love and care about your mother but I have issues with the way she relates to me and to you. It is affecting me, but what affects me more is that you are putting her above me when you refuse to acknowledge my perspective and feelings. I know that you don't see the problem, but I see the problem, and therefore until we are able to talk through it it will affect our marriage. I know this is difficult to you but sweeping it under the rug is not something I am willing to do, so we need to come up with some productive ways of handling this."

Do not let it fester. Be intimate. Share with him how you really feel. You need to hash it out together or you will both feel resentful and your marriage will suffer.

Much luck to you, and I extend my compassion.

[Pepin]

Anyway the problem I'm having is with my husband, he does not see this like I do and he get's very angry with me when I even try and tell him I'm worried about what she may do next. He's very clever at making me feel like I'm the one causing problems and has learned some very bad behaviour from his mother.

I suppose what I'm getting at is how do I separate myself from this? I so want him to wake up that I am saying the wrong things in the heat of the moment and making it worse. Will he ever see what everyone else see's? The frustration and sadness I feel at this situation is unreal.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

This is pretty much what I have been going through as well...and I really don't know if my DH will ever see the light.  His denial makes me terribly sad for such an intelligent man...makes me feel like he is hiding something from me and that I cannot trust him.  The loyalty toward his mother is something I cannot understand and I am also embarrassed for him since the relationship they have with each other at this point in time is highly unusual.  It is like a big secret and he doesn't share this with his close friends really....just some basic details that would implicate that he is a good son.

When PDMil is in our presence DH becomes a different man altogether.  I feel as though I am an outsider, a 3rd wheel if you will.  I have gotten to the point where I just cannot stand being around PDMil for any length of time.

DH often visits PDMil on his own now and even that kind of bothers me -- I mean, I should be happy that I don't have to go or that she doesn't come to our home anymore....what doesn't sit right with me is the amount of time she requires of him, which keeps him from his family.  DH seems to think that it is perfectly normal...yet his siblings sure don't put in the same amount of time and I really can't think of anyone else that does this with their aging parents either.

I think that boundaries are where it is at and I am struggling to understand how to set boundaries in this complicated dynamic.  I would like to say NO to everything that involves PDMil...but then what does that say about me?  -- that I am a wife that does not approve of her husband's elderly mother and boy I must be a bad person. 

The thing though is that no one else sees the side of her that I see.  I've been a threat since the early days because DH is the golden child.  To quell this I was a doormat and that eventually blew up in my face after it was realized that I was competition.  The subtle jabs over the years toward me have amounted to something huge and it has been highly damaging for me to internalize this.  I am furious...furious that I was so blind and that it has been so hard to undo.

The only thing I can think of besides boundaries is just to keep chipping away a little at a time.  PDs hate facts.  PDs also hate when you point out patterns.  I have used both these things as evidence to get my point across and it has worked.  Turning things around and focusing on what you want also helps.  Instead of saying I don't want....say I want X.   For me that would be: I would only like to celebrate the holidays with our family in our home....rather than saying, I would not like your mother present in our home during the holidays.  I basically just left PDMil out of the equation..and that is what I am striving to do with each baby step. 

I have been married to DH for almost 20 years but with him for longer...it is not easy to unpack the mess that these PD parents create and I am so sorry that you are dealing with this.

[ladybirdgirl]

Thank you for your reply lotusblume, you have given some really good advice. Only thing is if I even attempt to bring the subject up he goes mad and I sometimes wonder if it's even worth it. Before the wedding things were so great, he even said to me a few times that he knows what she's done but it's like he's suddenly forgotten.

Thanks Pepin. DH is also the golden child and PDMIL is very clever about what she says in front of him. She says things in a very indirect way and denies it afterwards. I felt like I was going mad for years. I was also the doormat and I am so angry at the things I let her do to me and my children, the control I have allowed her to have.
There was a split second after the wedding when I thought maybe I've been too harsh because she was so lovely all day but then I remembered that is her way of luring me back in.

Thank you for your advice, I will definitely try sticking to facts and focusing on the things I want. I'm also very sorry that you are going through the same thing.

[Poison Ivy]

I was the competition to my late father-in-law.  Unfortunately (or not), I didn't realize it was a competition until it was too late for me to put up an effective offense.

In some ways, it felt as though my ex was married to his dad.  Ugh.

[Alexmom]

I am sorry you are in this situation.  I was there too and it is such a stress on your marriage.  Your MIL is an interloper, and she must feel like "the other woman" especially since your DH is not leaving and cleaving to you and protecting you from this nasty woman, only defending her and making you feel bad and alone in your marriage.  I think you have done some initial smart moves of distancing yourself from her and not allowing your kids to be alone with her, and going forward this will be a work in progress as I doubt this woman will be leaving your life anytime soon due to your DH's connection to her.  Know that your DH will always have a different perspective of this woman than you do, so I think it is wasted energy arguing with your DH about how you see this woman and he should see her this way too. 

In my situation, my MIL, also an interloper, was very resentful that her son left her to marry me, so she spent years meddling in our marriage and playing petty games to get him to be loyal to her first and foremost at my expense.  She really created a lot of stress in our marriage.  She had a very sweet and innocent schtick that she presented to the world, which DH believed and wanted to see, but I saw a manipulative and resentful woman and did not like to be around her.  I took way longer than you to distance myself from her, which I wish I would have done very early in our marriage.   In any event, DH and I never saw eye to eye on his mom's true intentions until she came clean after she was dx with terminal cancer and lost the ability to filter herself as well as she had done her whole life (she never drank alcohol, aka the truth serum which was another way she held onto her true thoughts).  She then confessed about her deep resentment in DH for leaving her to marry me and for not taking her side when she inserted herself in our marriage (and we sucked as parents and she hoped we would divorce and yada, yada, yada).  This was all hard to hear but was a gift too as it validated everything I thought about my MIL and DH could no longer defend her.  These were her words and her thoughts, sadly.

In any event, your DH is not putting you first and is allowing his interloping mom to damage your marriage.  This needs to be addressed.  This is the crux of your problem.  Vet a marriage counselor that supports the sanctity of marriage and upholding the principle of leaving and cleaving and start counseling.  In the meantime, I would continue to keep your distance from your MIL, not allow your kids with her unsupervised, and not open the door when she pops over unannounced.   Also, practice a lot of self care and meditate, pray or do yoga to work through the angst and stress - which is so important for your mental health and which I cannot emphasize enough as it is being challenged here. 

[Pepin]

 

[ladybirdgirl]

Poison ivy thank you for your reply and I'm so sorry you have been through this too.

Thank you Alexmom for the reply. It is only recently that I have stopped my children from being alone with her. My eldest two have spent a lot of time with her without me there and this is a huge concern of mine. My daughter (second child) is very similar to my mother in law in ways and I'm struggling with this and wondering if her influence has affected her.

I grew up in a household with an alcoholic so know very well what a dysfunctional family is like but it seems like my DH can not see what is clearly in front of his face. He tells me that he had a good childhood and then in the next breath says his mum and dad fought so badly a lot of the time that he packed bag to run away at 5 years old.

I've had a lot of counselling to get over issues in my own life but having to deal with the dysfunction in DH's family when he doesn't even acknowledge what's going on is a hard pill to swallow.
I would love to find a counsellor for us but he is so in denial that I don't think it would help even asking. It's so sad because I love him so much but sometimes I just want to run away and leave all the drama behind.

[Lauren17]

It is only recently that I have stopped my children from being alone with her. My eldest two have spent a lot of time with her without me there and this is a huge concern of mine. My daughter (second child) is very similar to my mother in law in ways and I'm struggling with this and wondering if her influence has affected her.

Ladybirdgirl, so much of your posts resonated with me that I had trouble picking which to agree with. I'm so sorry that you're in this situation. I know how much it hurts to be in the middle of "death by a thousand paper cuts" and no one to stick up for you.
I'm 20+ years into my marriage. It was just a few years ago that DH stopped denying anything was wrong, and stated "My mother has never liked you!" with a big laugh. He has occasionally stated that specific behaviors of his mother are wrong, but then he pops right back into mom defense mode.
I've tried  Lotisblume's approach. I'm hoping it will work for you, but it only made things worse for me. His solution was that we all needed to spend more time together to learn to get along.   
This is what I've done:  I gray rock my MIL  to the very edge of rude.
I don't expect DH to acknowledge or aid in the situation. He has been conditioned to cover for her since he was very small. I'm not responsible for solving that. He is.
I don't allow DD (SG) to ever be alone with her. I've tried discussing this with DH and he does his all to thwart me. So I don't discuss, I just do it.
I draw my boundaries and I stick to them regardless of pushback.
I'm still working on forgiving myself for the time I allow DD (both GC and SG) to spend time with her.
Good luck. And know that we're here to listen.

[Lilyloo]

Ladybirdgirl, I am so sorry you go through this. It is totally frustrating to not feel heard or validated.  It's terrible to need to be open with a husband but are cautious to bring it up. It's how it should be, we should be able to freely talk to them without feeling we are the bad person. About separating yourself from it, I wish I knew what to say. :(It seems to me that when we have others who truly listen and understand it helps so much.  Its good to have this forum

Like you I mostly feel it's not worth it but then it's stays inside and often I feel like running away too.  I have lived for 47 years trying to cope with my husbands dysfunctional family. His Mother passed away but nothing she did made any difference. I could never vent to him about it.  It caused a fight.  She drank, she partied until she became to old.She felt her family was above me.  She did not like me. She tried to control how I raised my children.

Now it's his sisters. Nothing they do is ever wrong and I just better keep my mouth shut. There is such a loyalty between them all, stuck like glue to each other, to the point it seems sick. It really feels unnatural to me.  He will defend them to the end.

It causes me great stress as it does you. I'm trying to learn to disconnect. It's very hard. I wish you all the best. I feel your pain, I truly do  :bighug

[PeanutButter]

 I have and continue to go through very similar as all of you.
One thing that I realized with my H is that he was not permitted to have his own feelings. UnpdMIL forced engulment/enmeshment on him starting when he was just a child. The only feelings that could exist were unpdMIL's feelings.
He still does seem to not be able to connect to HIS feelings about things concerning his unpdM.
My H also can still be triggered into a state of 'terrified child' that devastates his ability to be 'present with me' when issues with unpdM is the subject of conversation.
Jerry Wise has you tube videos about ACON/ACOA that helped me understand a little better.
This is so hard. Im so sorry to all of you. It is so painful!

[ladybirdgirl]

Lauren17 thank you so much for your reply and I'm sorry it's taken so long to get back to you.  I'm so sorry that you are having to deal with this too. Your advice on this situation is so helpful and I hope your approach works for me. I think I worry too much that my DH is going to leave if I disagree with him and I pander to his needs too much.


Lindaloo I am also so sorry that you are feeling the same. I feel so frustrated for you that you had a MIL like this and also SIL's. I hope you are ok. It is such a helpless feeling.

Peanutbutter, I can totally understand when you say your DH wasn't allowed to have his own feelings. My DH doesn't know how to portray feelings and is 'fine' all
the time and doesn't seem to realise when he is not ok.
I'm waiting at the moment for when he says he's taking the kids to PDMIL's again as it's been nearly two weeks. I hope he has realised what she is like during this period of time but I very much
doubt it. I will have a look at the Jerry Wise you tube videos, thank you.

Thank you all for your support, all of your messages have helped me massively.

[NumbLotus]

A good book on this subject is Toxic Inlaws by Susan Forward.

[M0009803]

Ladybirdgirl,

Your H's story sounds a lot like mine.

I come from a heavily enmeshed family controlled by a UPDM.   When you come from this kind of dysfunctional family, you normalise the toxic behavior that comes from the family.    To you it is clearly abusive, but to your H it's just his mother being her usual self. 

Now, what I failed to see for many years (which your H still has not been able to see because of FOG) is that her abusive behaviors also conditions you (makes you reactive), so what happens is that when he gets overloaded by his family, he takes out his frustrations on you, because he has been conditioned by his mother to protect the family unit at all costs.

When I first started dating my now wife, my family did the exact same thing that your H's family is doing to you.  They saw her as a threat to the family unit (and their disordered way of doing things), so they targeted her (indirectly) by verbally and emotionally abusing me about my relationship with her.  I then got overloaded by this, and reacted by lashing out at my wife.   The thing is here, is that you do this almost without thinking and its hard to stop doing this because you are so deep in the FOG (like my mother I am sure his mother is a master at laying down the guilt and shame).

Like your H, I also provided a much rosier view of my family life to my wife and friends (in my case it was my teenage years) while we dated.   This is called a fantasy bond, and its essentially a surivival mechanism. Your H knows deep down that his mother was abusive, but because he still has to interact with her, he chooses to see the "positives", so he kind of puts her (and his childhood) in the best positive light.  It's also done because it's obviously not the best thing to discuss with any healthy person (and potential mate ).  It is extremelt difficult to break this view of your own mother, but in my view it is necessary to start the healing process.  Your H needs to deal with the fact he was abused as a child.  I slowly told my wife over the years the reality of my abusive childhood, and while it was hard, it has also been very freeing, and brought us closer. The fact that your H is slowly discussing the abuse he suffered with you bit by bit is actually a good sign, as he has started to emotionally detach.

The three things that made the most difference (for me) were seeing my wifes family and how they interacted (they are healthy), a BBB-episode from my mother/sister during my wedding, and educating myself about the psychology of dysfunctional families/individuals (this site helped a lot here).   

In your case, it seems that your H knows that something is "off" about his family, but they haven't done something so crazy that he would cut ties (I was in this holding pattern for years as well).  My only advice here is to help him with the education/boundary setting, as that could potentially help the situation. Also, encourage him to talk to you about the abuse he suffered (I will disagree with people here about using a therapist with your H at the beginning.  Men don't like doing this, and he is much more likely to talk/trust you than a stranger.  Men benefit more from therapy once they are more comfortable talking about the abuse)   Given that you are just recently married, I would start with this strategy right away and not allow his family to enmesh him completely, because at that point they can cause serious damage to your marriage.

[dilemmamama]

I'm so sorry you are going through this, I don't have a lot of advice for you.  I have been married for 17 years and am going through the same thing.  I totally understand how you feel.  We even went to counseling for awhile, but that was useless...it didn't change much.  My DH is an only child, which is wonderful (insert sarcasm).  We did move much farther away just over a year ago, and that is great for the most part, but now they are here for 2 weeks...ugh, with 9 days to go.  We live 10 hours from them, at least in our new home we have a little in-law suite, and my oldest daughter can drive, so she has been running my MIL all over the place (her grandma). 

It is so hard when you are constantly being undermined in subtle ways, I try not to let it bother me, but man is it hard.  I have decided to keep up with my new running routine, it helps with stress. 

It's hard.  Especially when your SO doesn't see or want to see it.  You are not alone.

[Lauren17]

Peanutbutter, I can totally understand when you say your DH wasn't allowed to have his own feelings. My DH doesn't know how to portray feelings and is 'fine' all the time and doesn't seem to realise when he is not ok.

Ladybirdgirl and Peanubutter. My DH is always "fine" as well. This applies to both emotions (happy, sad) and feelings (hungry, sick). I'm married over 20 years and didn't realize until recently that DH uses humor, rationalizations, gentle invalidations, and silent treatment whenever I display any emotional response other than "fine." Gradually, I started suppressing my feelings as well.  I'd like to encourage anyone who is married to and adult child of a PD to guard against this. Not to try and force spouse to acknowledge his/her feelings, but to stick up for your own!
I've been intentionally stating my feelings. "I feel happy today because I completed a project." "I'm frustrated that you didn't do the dishes as promised." I also regularly tell my kids things like, "it's ok to feel angry, but its not ok to slam the door."

[ladybirdgirl]

M0009803 Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post and I'm sorry I haven't thanked you sooner. I haven't been on the forum much lately and didn't think there would be any more replies on here.
Your post is massively helpful and it's good to hear your story and how it feels from someone who has been brought up in a similar way to my Dh.

dilemmamama I hope you managed to get through the two weeks ok, there is now way I could have my mil to stay for that long! It's good to know I'm not alone.

Lauren17 thank you for your advice. I can relate to what you said completely. My Dh Hates it when I express any type of emotion that he sees as negative. His mother has brought him up with a 'positive' (not allowed to show emotion) mind set and so he gets annoyed if I'm tired, stressed, upset etc.