T as a mediator while NC

[candy]

DH's individual T is encouraging him to reconcile with his parents. Write a letter. Meet with MIL and FIL, me, and T as a mediator. Because ,,she is your mother after all" and ,,your wife married your parents too when she married you."
T asked DH to ask me if I was ok with having that mediated talk with the ILs. So I am free to say no if I don't want to.

My first response has been ,,No, I did not marry your parents. I married you. I won't let your T talk me into any kind of obligation. I, personally, am past that."

I am NC. So is toddler DD. DH is VVLC. And with the recent events of NMIL stalking us I cannot see anything good coming from reconciliation. Here is the link to the stalking thread for the full picture (it's long):

https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=81660.0

My individual T, our marriage counselor and you wise people here at Out of the FOG advised me to stay NC and give no reaction to NMIL's stalking. To be honest I find the timing to consider reconciliation inappropriate.

I cannot help but get a ,,it's faaaamily"-vibe from DH's T. On the other hand I don't know what DH has told T or if he painted the perfect family picture concerning his FOO.

Don't you want a loving set of grandparents for your child, T has asked. Sure, who wouldn't? I am just pretty, pretty sure the one set we have on the IL side is simply not capable of being persistently polite, good and loving towards DD or DH or me. They have not given me reason to think otherwise.
As far as I know DH's T is a grandparent herself, maybe it is wishful thinking?

If the IL's show their toxicity during that talk, I assume it could be helpful - for DH and his T. If they are holding it together, it'll be hard to argue what is wrong with those well-meaning people.

Do I show my willingness to help DH by agreeing to have a mediated conversation with the ILs? Is this the way to support him? Maybe they won't show up anyway.

Or do I go on sending the consistent message that I do not engage with people who treat me or my child or husband badly? Because this NC is the final consequence for violating my boundaries in the past.

For now I think DH writing letter(s) is a good idea. T asked DH if we could both sign it. I just don't know. It could be understand as contact. It's DH relationship with his parents, I am not part of that. DH told me I was a big part of his life and his parents accepting me would be accepting who he is now... well, I do not know what to think about this? What do you think?

Has anyone done a talk with their PD that was moderated by a mediator?
Did you invite the parents or ILs to T? Did they come?
What happened in the long run? Did you alter your level of contact? Did T recognize that your IL relative had a PD?

If I feel the relationship with my ILs is a one way street only, do I open to door to be hurt again? Could supporting DH mean protecting him?

I'll stop with the questions for now, looking forward for your experiences and thoughts 
At the moment I just feel overwhelmed and I'm glad to have some time to decide.

Take care everyone!

[lotusblume]

Hi Candy,

Oof! I see a bunch of red flags here from your husband's therapist.

You pointed them out. It's obvious she is not siding with your husband, but with his parents. She probably hasn't done her own breaking from the unhealthy parts of her parents and has beliefs that parents are owed a relationship out of obligation, plus her own projections of grandparenting.

One that stuck out massively was that your husband still seeks his parents approval, and their approval of you. A good therapist should be helping dismantle those childhood rescue fantasies before even considering reconciliation.

I also had a therapist who from day one thought the end road to my personal emotional well being was reconciliation. It confused me and sent me backwards. Therapists can wield an enormous psychic power over their patients.

That being said, your husband does not sound ready for this time of confrontation. It could go two ways - dragging him back through FOG and giving him the opportunity to be manipulated by his parents, or seeing them react badly and propelling him further Out of the FOG. Of course there is a small chance they will change some behaviour... I wouldn't hold my breath.

It seems you are aware they are not going to change, at least not overnight. Tough situation to be in. You have to decide what's best for you. Maybe bring up your concerns with your husband, make sure to stay a united front, and decide together if he goes through with this if he would like you to support him there. You shouldn't be going to get the ok stamp from his parents.

Sounds like all kinds of toxic hope. I feel for you and your husband.

[Call Me Cordelia]

DH told me I was a big part of his life and his parents accepting me would be accepting who he is now...

This is a quote from my DH!!!! He said almost word for word with regard to wanting to send photos of me and the kids to his parents. It was facilitated by a few sessions he had individually with my former T, after I had moved to EMDR. She was encouraging him to be his "authentic self" with his PD parents, and that included sharing about his family life.  This was after this same T heard exactly how NMIL treated me, saw the letters, and encouraged me in going NC with the ILs. So... Go figure. 

My answer was (and still is) a hard no. They have lost the privilege of having any information about me and the children, and I will NOT be made at all vulnerable by the person who should be my #1 champion. It would be a blow to our marriage, for the benefit of people who have abused us and further encourage DH's "on the fence" position. No. If he chooses to share our stuff anyway there will be consequences in our relationship and I am not going to pretend it's somehow a good thing. So I suppose you could say I'm sabotaging the relationship between DH and his parents (I know they do), but it's my boundaries that have been put up as a consequence of their behavior. That it's uncomfortable for DH is entirely beside the point. I'm not trying to make things difficult for him,  it's more collateral damage if indeed it is damaging to not accommodate his FOG. I'm not going to make things easier for him at my own expense and the kids' any more.

We didn't get into that BS about marrying a whole family, but my Nparents loooved to trot that one out. And they taught the pre-marriage class at church.  Any bond of obligation and connection that exists under normal circumstances (if any) is completely lifted by unsafe, abusive, obsessive psychotic STALKING behavior. I'm astounded that the T is acting like this is a normal conflict and they can be loving grandparents if only you weren't so stubborn and could work it out.  I'm pretty sure some of DH's spin and denial is at work here. As you say, who knows if she has the whole picture.

I agree your MIL certainly has shown no indication, to say the least, that a reconciliation would be safe or successful. I share your fear that a family session would simply provide oodles of supply and change nothing, except maybe provide another opportunity to make you the bad guy and confuse things further. If you're going to be the bad guy to DH and his T, I would take non-engagement. You have backup from your marriage counselor and your own T at least.

But OMG. Your obligation is to your daughter, not her stalker! 

[StayWithMe]

I don't trust this therapist.  And I believe that if things do not work out she will blame you for it because after all, you've already expressed doubts about it. 

[H_Allison]

I had a very strong, icky reaction to you signing a letter with DH to the ILs.... There were a lot of big no-no's in there for me, but for some reason that one stuck out. This therapist sounds manipulative. Would you feel confident seeing the T with your DH only? Maybe having the therapist mediate a conversation between the two of you about some of these proposals? Then you would have the opportunity to see for yourself if the T is out of line, if he/she is working from a warped picture from DH or if DH is effectively communicating the T's recommendations...? Not sure what others think of that idea, but it would be hard for me to hear this stuff and feel confident that DH was getting the advice that was productive for your shared relationship goals.

[bloomie]

Candy - It is hard to imagine how your in laws acting out so badly you have had to go NC with them and remove your child from harm's way would come down to rest on your shoulders in this way. I am perplexed how an educated professional would handle such a huge consideration by sending messages through your DH like this.

Where is the plan to ensure you comfort and safety and the safety of all? Where are the clearly outlined steps and boundaries of what a mediated therapy session with two people who have proved themselves untrustworthy would actually entail for you?

If your DH and his eager therapist would like to have such a difficult meeting then they have invited you to it in such a way that is off-putting and does not build trust in the process. This meeting should be approached with great care and consideration and gentleness and with a concrete plan.

What have your in laws done to show any kind of good faith attempts to deal with their issues and manage their hurtful behaviors that would require any kind of engagement from you? Going against the trusted advice from your support team is a very big ask of you.

As is, I am not sure how you can agree to something so vague and that leaves you so vulnerable. My two pennies on this one.

[gettingstronger1]

On the other hand I don't know what DH has told T or if he painted the perfect family picture concerning his FOO.

I don't mean any disrespect to your husband, but I also am wondering if your husband is telling his therapist what is really going on with his parents or is he in denial of his mother's behavior?  If your husband is minimizing his mom's behavior then that is a real problem for your marriage because it affects you and the kids. I personally experienced this too.  My husband frequently minimized and was in denial of his mother's behavior.  My husband's denial didn't help the progress of his therapy or help his therapist hear the truth of what is going on.  I wonder if this is partly what is going on here.  Is this a husband problem or is it a therapist with lack of judgement problem?

The woman lives approximately 100 miles away from where we live, in another city, and the programme she went to is available in several locations near to her home and in the surrounding cities. But she chose to take the one and a half hour drive, one way, to my and DH's city once a week and participated in some sort of weight loss programme 0.5 miles from our home. Who does this?

Any rational therapist would realize that it is not normal for a mother to go 100 miles out of her way for a weight watchers program that just happens to be a half mile from her son's home.  Has your husband told his therapist this? I find your mother in law's behavior to be disturbing and his therapist should be concerned about this too.  This is a safety issue and a good therapist should never put her clients in harms way.  One of the rules of therapy for the therapist is to NEVER put an abuser in a therapy session together with a victim.  For example, in marital therapy, if there is abuse between a husband and wife, the therapist should never do joint therapy with the abuser and victim in the same room.  What happens is the victim says something in therapy the abuser doesn't like and then he goes home and abuses the victim behind closed doors after the therapy session.  The same principal applies here.  Your mother in law abused you in the past.  You had a good reason to go NC.  The therapist should never put you in the same room as your abuser (mother in law).  For a therapist to suggest you should be in the same room as your abuser tells me she doesn't know what is going on or she has serious problems herself.  Protect yourself and make sure your husband is not minimizing his mothers abuse of you or her stalking behavior.

One caretaker told me that a woman that fits my MIL's description has followed the group to the playground a couple of times 
The daycare workers didn't want to cause a false alarm by informing the parents. It has happened just too often to go unrecognized. As the woman did not talk to / interact with the kids, they agreed on wait and see. If it happens again, they'll notify me immediately.

I am scared. I think she is a potentially dangerous person.

The other deeply disturbing behavior of your mother in law is possibly stalking your children at daycare.  She lives one hundred miles away and to stalk her grandchildren is deeply disturbing behavior that your husbands therapist needs to know about.  Did he tell the therapist this?

This to me is deeply concerning behavior, and I would not recommend you be in the same room as your mother in law. Like I said, I mean no disrespect to your husband.  I am sure he is a wonderful man, but is he minimizing his mother's stalking behaviors?  I wish you well in dealing with this.  It sounds like a very complicated situation where you are trying to be respectful of your husband's feelings, but if your gut instinct is telling you "NO" then I would honor your feelings.  They are there for a reason.  I apologize if I sound harsh.  I am concerned for you and your children in this situation. Your gut level feelings about whether she is safe or not concerns me.  Please keep us updated on what happens.

[candy]

A belated thank you all for your thoughtful replies!

Life has been really busy those past weeks. I'll probably post about it on the boards but for now I just like to give an update on how things evolved around DH and his T. Your thoughts were so very helpful to me, and during the last weeks I tended to come back as a silent reader, revisited every piece of advice and reminded myself, with help from my own support team, that ,,I am not the problem".

I took H_Allison suggestion to heart and went to see DH's T in a session with DH. A warped picture it was.

First of all DH has been minimizing his parents' abusive behavior towards him (as a child and as an adult) and towards me. When telling his T about the recent stalking incident DH left out the part of MIL following DD's daycare group to the the playground. No wonder DH's T had given the benefit of the doubt and said it was possible, not likely, MIL's presence in our town being a coincidence 

DH seems to have a habit of leaving out the cruel details of his parents behavior when talking to his T. This goes especially for the things they did and said to him. He has internalized being the scapegoat, taking blame and responsibility for every wicked ugly feeling they project on him.
It was hard to watch.
gettingstronger1, yes, and thank you for pointing it out, at this point this is a husband problem.

There really is a lot of FOG and toxic hope on DH's side and I cannot blame this T for assuming DH's FOO is just a regular healthy family having problems adjusting to new generational roles. She looked at me with astonishment when I shared the little detail NMIL and NFIL have been giving the both of us the silent treatment for 1.5 years and counting (intercepted by some hoovers exclusively addressed at DH). DH had told there was limited contact.

The questions DH took home to me where the result of a brainstorming DH and T did. More the ,,maybe you can ask your wife if she..." kind of questions, but anyway. I still think the timing has been inappropriate. And I agree with everyone here who said now would not be a good time for confrontation for DH. I feel sad saying this but he is really not there yet. And it wouldn't be safe for me, not with this T at this point.

It is still not clear to me whose idea it is reconciliation being the goal at the end of the road. And I doubt this T is experienced with PDs. In the session T talked a lot about love and how important grandparents were to children. I made it very clear that not everyone has shown to be able to love unconditionally, and that my and my child's safety and overall wellbeing aren't an experimental field to figure out whether or not,,anyone can change". Yes, sure, but the ILs have not once stated that they think change is necessary on their side. They want DH to change back to dutiful son, divorce me and get DD into MIL's pawns.

She said she would think about my need for safety. But her primary focus was DH, her client.
And what, I asked, are you encouraging him to prioritize the relationship with his parents over his marriage?
I know I was out of line at this point. It may not be her duty to care for a client's family members. But she happens to care for ,,the grandparents", projecting all kinds of things my ILs clearly are not, why not show a little compassion for the wife, me?

Maybe someone who is more experienced with therapy or some insights to the professional aspects of T, is able to answer my question here: is this a thing? To focus on the client only?

My own T is very different, as is our counselor too, but maybe this T's approach to individual T is different. DH's T currently seems to be all about boosting DH's self-confidence and self-awareness. Which is a good thing, IMO.
But the T is trained in transformational systemic therapy. One would guess it was all about you AND others 

His T is encouraging DH to sort his feelings out, go through all stages of grief, and I do agree this is a good thing. I really wish DH will get there with time. At this point my DH is all back and forth about the dysfunction being a new feature of his FOO since his adulthood.
I just wonder if they will digg deep enough to come to the conclusion that there has been abuse.

Regarding mediated talks or my signature on letters non-engagement is on the schedule for me. It clearly didn't help to earn my trust to send me vague inquiries through DH.

We do have a marriage counselor who is really helpful. I have already told DH that ,,we" decisions and communications between ,,us" and his parents have to go through counseling first. I am not willing to put the cart before the horse whenever DH and T take the results of their next brainstorming into action again.

Following the advice of a friend I have emailed those my boundaries to DH. My hope is he won't deny what is set out in writing.

Thank you for reading!

[gettingstronger1]

She said she would think about my need for safety. But her primary focus was DH, her client.

Candy, thanks for giving us an update. I am sorry I don't have time to write a longer post but the above quote really concerned me.  Your husband may be her primary client, but if you are in her office she has some professional ethical obligations to you too.  Your name may not be in the chart, but she has a legal and ethical responsibility for the safety of both of you.  Your safety and the safety of your family is paramount and the absolute first priority. 

As we discussed in the earlier post, it is very important that your husband tell his therapist the whole truth.  As you know, a therapist is not a mind reader.  She can only know what your husband tells her.  Now the therapist knows that your husband hasn't revealed the whole truth.  I don't know if you will be in any more sessions with his counselor, but this is definitely an issue to bring up in joint marital therapy.  I am sorry you are having to deal with this. 

[all4peace]

Candy, you mention feeling "out of line" to question your DH's T about whether your marriage gets to count in the equation. This is entirely appropriate, an absolutely reasonable question! YOU are your DH's primary relationship, not his parents. I just want to back you up and validate you in making this point to his T.

It took me until the last couple years to absolutely insist and demand that I be DH's primary relationship. I felt silly, needy and totally out of line also. But it is absolutely reasonable. I had to remind myself of what our marriage vows were. There's nobody else in my life I've made spiritual and legal vows to except for my DH. And yet we were letting the stress and anxiety of family relationships devastate our bond with each other. Truly, you couldn't have been more in line than to challenge your DH's therapist to consider WHO his primary relationship is with: You. Well done!

[bloomie]

candy - I am reading this update and cheering you on! You have come to what seems to be necessary and tough realizations after meeting with your H's T - your H is minimizing behavior and leaving out important details, in particular regarding treatment of himself, and that he is "not there yet". Coming Out of the FOG is going to take some more time for him. My heart goes out to you both in this struggle. It is painful.

You also have responded with truth and a reality check for your H's T and your response here couldn't have been more clear and strong:

It is still not clear to me whose idea it is reconciliation being the goal at the end of the road. And I doubt this T is experienced with PDs. In the session T talked a lot about love and how important grandparents were to children. I made it very clear that not everyone has shown to be able to love unconditionally, and that my and my child's safety and overall wellbeing aren't an experimental field to figure out whether or not,,anyone can change". Yes, sure, but the ILs have not once stated that they think change is necessary on their side. They want DH to change back to dutiful son, divorce me and get DD into MIL's pawns.

It took great courage to meet with H's T and get a clearer picture of what is motivating this drive toward reconciliation. It must be helpful to see the why's of the suggestion of the T to mediate a meeting between you all.

Candy, you mention feeling "out of line" to question your DH's T about whether your marriage gets to count in the equation. This is entirely appropriate, an absolutely reasonable question! YOU are your DH's primary relationship, not his parents. I just want to back you up and validate you in making this point to his T.

It took me until the last couple years to absolutely insist and demand that I be DH's primary relationship. I felt silly, needy and totally out of line also. But it is absolutely reasonable. I had to remind myself of what our marriage vows were. There's nobody else in my life I've made spiritual and legal vows to except for my DH. And yet we were letting the stress and anxiety of family relationships devastate our bond with each other. Truly, you couldn't have been more in line than to challenge your DH's therapist to consider WHO his primary relationship is with: You. Well done!

I second this wholeheartedly! So beautifully and clearly stated!

[candy]

all4peace and Bloomie,
thank you both so very much for your encouraging and kind posts.

It is sometimes difficult for me to distinguish appropriate from inappropriate when it comes to my relationship with DH. I think this is because my own parents are dysfunctional (BP(2)NPDF and codependent EnM) and their marriage has been anything else than admirable or exemplary.

Being a child my M has still been what one would call ,,good enough". Consequently I guess I have a good sense of healthy parenting. Self-education and T also helped. But when it comes to romantic relationships I needed to grow into my thirties to stop repeating and actively fight the unhealthy patterns I had watched growing up.
I'm good at fighting for DD. Fighting for myself not as much. Thank you for your validation, all4peace, it really means a lot!

DH has been parentified his whole life, being the emotional caretaker of NMIL, mocked by his uNF and GCB. NMIL has been competitive towards me from the beginning, demanding that DH will always put his mother first. DH's obedience's cracked when we had DD and NMIL insisted she'd be the better parent, the better mother and so on.

DH and I come from different places, of course, being alike in recognizing that how our parents communicate with each other is dysfunctional. We made a promise to try to do better very early in our relationship. Now we have a family, time is always tight and DH reverts to unhealthy behavioral patterns that probably helped him with his PD family. He does it with me. He does it every time NMIL, uNFIL and GCBIL turn on the drama or force contact.

I am not competing for the position of DH's mother, and I would be so happy if NMIL and her entourage could just leave us alone. It is a tremendous strain on our marriage.

Reading your answers I believe there is a place from which you can look back and recognize all the little steps that led to a content state of mind, led to recovery for our own, our spouses and our marriages. It is full of hope. Thank you again.