He just can't say NO

[Pepin]

A number of times now DH has felt compelled to give reasons to PDMil or his siblings when we say no to something.  And...this has gotten us into some hot water.  I have explained to DH many times about the word NO and how it works and to stop providing reasons.  He has had a difficult time understanding this.  It is baffling to me as to why it is so important for him to give reasons for everything -- and that sadly he requires this validation. 

This behavior definitely is keeping him in the FOG.  Yet, outside of his family and PDMil, he can say the word NO just fine without having to back it up! 

I would love to be able to connect these two ways of being and help him see it but I don't know how. 

[StayWithMe]

This could be his subtle way of undermining you.  sometimes you can't afford to be so generous.

[p123]

A number of times now DH has felt compelled to give reasons to PDMil or his siblings when we say no to something.  And...this has gotten us into some hot water.  I have explained to DH many times about the word NO and how it works and to stop providing reasons.  He has had a difficult time understanding this.  It is baffling to me as to why it is so important for him to give reasons for everything -- and that sadly he requires this validation. 

This behavior definitely is keeping him in the FOG.  Yet, outside of his family and PDMil, he can say the word NO just fine without having to back it up! 

I would love to be able to connect these two ways of being and help him see it but I don't know how.

So its his mother here I guess and you're telling him how he should react? Hmmm - sorry to be harsh but why do you feel the need to dictate how he deals with it?

I'm the same. I give my Dad too many reasons. But as long as the end result is achieved (i.e. I dont end up letting him get me to do things) then wife is happy. She might not agree with the approach but then I've got my own opinion too.

Honestly, he might be still in the Fog. If the end results is a NO, no matter how he achieves it then maybe hes getting there. Like I said, sorry to be harsh, but being in that position, its 1000x time harder to deal with a PD parent when you've got others telling you how to do it.

Think of the end result.... Has he achieved the NO, or has he given in and let you down for something?

[Lilyloo]

Pepin, I totally get how you feel and what you are saying!  No is no, why do they need to give specific reasons!

I don't think you are feeling a need to dictate, not at all!!!!

Hugs

[p123]

Pepin, I totally get how you feel and what you are saying!  No is no, why do they need to give specific reasons!

I don't think you are feeling a need to dictate, not at all!!!!

Hugs

Lindaloo - Im not disagreeing- they don't NEED reasons but that doesnt stop them asking and asking...

In an ideal world, everyone would tell everyone what they thought to their face. No-one would get upset and everyone would be happy to be told NO to their face with no explanation. Its not an ideal world.

Some of us have been in the fog for decades. Dealing with family members who have trained us and expected to hear reasons. Its not that easy to go cold turkey and suddenly change. You've got to get your head around it and you're PD family member has got to get it into their head.

I'm sure the way I do it, my wife disagrees. I'm too soft. But it gets sorted one way or another. If she said "Go to your Dad and tell him to F off" (which is what she'd like to say and which, to be honest, he deserves) what would that achieve? If I did it my own way and said "Dad look I'm busy I can't do it because I'm doing X" does it matter?
I don't really want to have a massive argument with my wife every time.

[Pepin]

Thanks for the replies...I am processing at the moment what I am feeling.  By providing an example, I hope I can be clearer.

Recently DH and I went to a party for a niece.  Our teens did not attend because they don't feel comfortable at family gatherings anymore.  DH had RSVP'd that only he and I would attend.  When we got to the party DH's sister asked about our teens and he told them they were at home doing homework.    

Basically, he gave his sister the truth - but it was a horrible reason to miss a party.  Saying they had "other plans" and keeping it neutral would have been the right thing to do.  By saying what he said, it clearly was interpreted as: our teens feel that their homework is more important than this birthday and they knew weeks before that they would have homework to do on this ACTUAL day.

This is embarrassing.  To me, I feel that our teens were dragged through the mud and will be looked at even more unfavorably than they are....when all they wanted was to be left alone and remain neutral.  Previously DH and I had talked about the word NO when he replied to the invite.   He didn't need to give an answer at the party...

Ugh.  This is a pattern with DH now.  In the past he has gotten ruffled when our kids stopped wanting to visit PDMil.  He got angry one day and asked: what excuse am I supposed to come up with this time?! 

This is what I have been trying to get him to understand: NO is a complete sentence and we don't have to give reasons!  IT'S NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS!

I'm at a loss here...and this was difficult to write.  DH can easily say NO to other people without giving a reason, outside of our family.  But, not his own FOO.  I am frustrated that our teens and I keep getting thrown under the bus.

[PeanutButter]

I agree with stay with me.
Now that you have given this specific example I wondered if he is undermining you and throwing your children under the bus?
IMO I think his goal would be to make sure if sis gets angry its not at him. IME it is troubling that he doesnt seem mind if sis gets angry at you or your teens. He may even be directing her anger towards your teens by giving the information that they are missing the party to do home work.
I want you to know that IMO and IME ALL of your feelings and questions to your husband are valid and IMO justified.
This situation calls for him (husband and father) to stand up for and protect his foc. His actions and words reflect on and effect ALL of you. You have a right to have a say in this, and to ask him why he isn't firmly stationing himself between his toxic foo and you and your teens.
His role as son and brother should not take precedent over his role as husband and father EVER!!

[Poison Ivy]

I agree with staywithme and PeanutButter.

[Leonor]

Hi Pepin,

Such a hard time, many (if ok):



I had a very similar response to something my h said yesterday.

We've just finished hammering boundaries all around in preparation for the holidays, and one of the posts is: No ils in my home ever again. No hosting, no babysitting, no dropping by. Period.

This is a big one, because they used to be over *all the time*.

And then h said something about how there will be no visits this time.

I thought steam would spurt out of my ears. THIS time? How about NO time? EVER! What, did he think I was in some kind of phase or will "get past it" eventually or something?!?

All the old feelings bubbled up.

Bit I also was able to breathe a minute and think, "We will revisit this."

And I got enough space to hear the really important words, "no visits".  I had pushed that hay-uge movement on part of h. to focus on "this time." And I have to work on why I was so willing to shove aside the big verb in order to focus on an adverb.

I don't mean to hijack your thread or diminish your feelings. I imagine that your ils use the excuses to ask questions ... Which they use to lure your h into an argument ... and when h takes the bait, a power struggle ensues ... and he winds up reassuring them ... which feels like a betrayal to you ... and a victory for your ils.

Maybe that's why it would feel so good to hear your h say "No" and no more. Because it would feel like he's not playing their reindeer games. Because, in a way, this is a loyalty test.

I would gently suggest to both of us that we allow ourselves to hear the "No" first. The rest is blah-blah.

What would you like your h to say or do after the "No"? Can you make a list, or rehearse them yourself to hear them out loud?

Ils: "But ... Whaddabout ... Why not ..."

Now, you can start with the @#&$ offs-ness. Get it all out. Then breathe.

If you take the bait, and get mad or push h, they have won again, because even though the kids aren't there and h has said "No", they've managed to drive a wedge between you.

Don't let them win! Give the sweetest smile, lean forward and ...

You: "Well, they're getting older and they do have their own lives now."

You: "We respect their right to make decisions about how to spend their free time."

You: "We're so proud they're growing up to be such responsible young people."

Or even go along with the excuse: "Yes, our children do have a wonderful sense of priorities!" Or, "Yes, we are so proud of how seriously they take their studies!"

I bet the ils' will stand there like deer in headlights (are they going to retort that studying isn't important?) or argue something stoopid and you can just blink and keep smiling and even nod your head slightly to the side. Two can play at that game, girl!

And maybe h will feel supported or relieved, as opposed to caught between opposing factions.

Then you can take h's arm gently, so that they can "see" that you two are a team on the same side.

I get it! You're lovely and they are horrid. You're both doing so well.

[bloomie]

Hi Pepin - Did your DH go to the same School of Social Awkwardness and How to Make A Situation Worse in One Short Sentence seminars as my own DH? 

My own H is so similar and if left to think on his feet in an uncomfortable social situation with his family like you describe here, that requires just a bit of savvy and social grace, he will blurt out something such as "they are home doing homework" as well! 

In my own situation, he is prone to go into a trauma response of freezing or fawning when put on the spot in simple social situation he knows can blow up into a major storm if he doesn't say things in the acceptable "family lingo" that his family communicates in.

In my DH's family you are only allowed to not attend a social event if you decline with an "acceptable" out. You may not attend because you are contagious (but only so many outs per decade are allowed for this excuse), out of town on a previously planned vacation or in the hospital and not being discharged that day - but you may leave on your hospital ID band for extra credit if you attend on the day you were discharged as expected. 

If your dog died, you had a baby two days ago, are working on the frontlines of a raging wild fire, live an 8 hour drive distance, had other plans, are uncomfortable socializing with the group or GASP! just don't want to go and offer a "no" alone - the you know what hit the fan!

In my own case, my DH's off the cuff responses and "reasons" invalidate us all. Not just him. I respectfully see that as similar in your own H's response and not deliberate undermining. My H's family will push, intrusively so, from all sides for a why. There is an insistence on treating invitations and "family gatherings" as Command Appearances by one and all. I posted a few years back about us declining to attend a large family gathering and the flying monkeys and fall out - including shaming the way I live out my faith from a simple - "We are not able to attend" so I get that this is more layered and frustrating than it would seem.

In our case, my DH has come to realize his off the cuff responses are usually going to make things harder. He is not good on his feet. We talk through how best to respond - not for hours, but much like we often do here on the boards... offering alternative ways to anticipate and respond to the push for more than just a polite decline.

Having a phrase or two to repeat like a broken record in our back pockets that is benign and consistent and polite may not placate or even avert judgment or offense when we, or our children, decline to attend something, but it does work to provide a verbal boundary and protection around ourselves and our family members.

Not everyone is gifted with good social instincts and gracious verbal skills. Not everyone, like my own H, had the opportunity to hone and develop an ability to deftly handle intrusive, uncomfortable, and often unsafe people - to think on their feet and avoid the danger zone in a family culture that is rigid and unforgiving if one chooses to go against the "norm". 

I get your frustration and am wondering if you all can approach the next social situation like this as a "we" problem - as you are all invited - and come up with a phrase or two to respond when pushed?

[Spring Butterfly]

*raises hand* yup I also was one who felt compelled to explain. Here's my story fwiw if it sheds light...

First I had not yet fully individuated, had not yet recognized myself as a separate individual outside of the family, had zero boundaries and didn't understand that I had individual human rights. Landing here was a huge first step in that direction. don't get me wrong I was an adult and married and on my own but as far as being emotionally separate that was another story.

Second even though I was married DH and I did not recognize ourselves as a separate and distinct individual family unit apart from our families of origin. Culturally on either side it just was expected that grown adults "honor" parents and the interpretation of that was a form of obedience. In actuality honor has nothing to do with obedience.

Oddly, similar to your husband, I had no problem with boundaries at work, standing up for myself or saying "heck no" to bad behavior outside of the family of origin. Then again people outside of my family rarely if ever demanded an excuse or reason or explanation for anything.

When someone who has been controlled emotionally and mentally my PD behavior it's like programming. The behavior triggers certain responses that have been groomed from birth.

Once I learned boundaries, individuated, and learned lots of the tools in the toolbox like medium chill it helped me to say no and sometimes provide a very neutral "reason" of sorts enough to cause enough pause in the behavior that would allow me to "bean dip" a subject change and stick to that change of subject.

That was the linchpin for me, being able to change the subject after the no and the medium chill response. It made it awkward for them to return back to demanding a reason after a medium chill "reason" was given and the subject had clearly changed.

That doesn't work for all PD because some are like a dog with a bone and just won't let go so it depends on the PD person, the behavior, and your husband's programming. Hopefully he can rewrite the code.

[all4peace]

Ugh, I can relate to this so much, both sides of the equation.

And I had to laugh at Bloomie's reference to the School of Social Awkwardness. DH tries so hard to explain when it would be SO much kinder to simply say "That won't work for us."

I struggle with this also, with my family or "my" groups. It seems to be a social expectation that we'll explain ourselves, even though we truly don't need to.

I don't have advice, but I can commiserate with you. It's awkward all the way around. I agree with SB on being ready to say something neutral and then rapidly change the subject to something else.

[Alexmom]

I have mixed thoughts Re: your DH's response to his sister.  First, I do agree that your DH has no obligation to JADE (justify, Argue, Defend or Explain) to his sister why his kids skipped the party, and I too get why protecting your family's privacy is important to you given your problematic history with your IL family.    I too really wanted to guard my family's privacy from my IL's as I did not trust them and knew they would gossip or use information against us, and DH and I worked on being on the same page in this regard.   

However, I also think that your DH's honesty with his sister was good too.  He didn't make up an excuse or candy coat why your kids were not there to avoid your SIL's disapproval or wrath.  He just stated the facts.  The truth is that your kids would rather do homework then spend time with the IL's.   No harm in stating that.

[Pepin]

However, I also think that your DH's honesty with his sister was good too.  He didn't make up an excuse or candy coat why your kids were not there to avoid your SIL's disapproval or wrath.  He just stated the facts.  The truth is that your kids would rather do homework then spend time with the IL's.   No harm in stating that.

This is true and speaks volumes.  When our teens were younger they were comfortable with their cousins for the most part.  But as they grew older and started realizing that all the cousins (grandkids) were "ranked", they wanted no part in family gatherings.  Certain cousins stayed close to each other and others drifted.  This has been a strain considering that DH is the GC.  Our teens want nothing to do with any of the other cousins because they cannot relate to them. 

Yeah, our teens would rather stay home and do homework then attend their cousin's 20th Bday party.  Not going to lie but a set of grandparents left early anyway...they don't care much for the scene either anymore.  Don't blame them one bit.  These parties have also become nothing more than a tiring gift grab...