Decided to stay home for Christmas - lol

[NumbLotus]

I haven't even "diagnosed" MIL with a PD, lol. Been thinking if her as PD-lite but there are certain things that seem to go full blown. And H and I just decided to wake that bear. Just venting I guess.

MIL is extremely entitled to demands that H visits on her schedule. When we were younger, it was all the holidays and her birthday and HIS birthday. We weaned her off over time and now it's just Christmas and July 4. So, yay,

Our daughter has had ONE Christms at home, other than the first year when she was 3 months old and obviously that doesn't count! H and I always got to wake up in our own homes Christmas morning. Well, she is 14 and has been talking over the last week about how she really wants to stay home.

So yesterday I floated the idea to H. I told him I was just throwing the idea out there, and if he didn't want to deal with the blowup, I would not bring it up again. He was stressed about the idea but kept wanting to talk about it. Finally he decided to do it.

He tried to call his mother but she wasn't home. He can't stand the agony of putting off pain so he texted her, and also his FM sister. He even threw in a placation that he would "make up" the visit in Jan or Feb. So it's done. Time for WWIII to begin.

This is so ridiculous. MIL doesn't own our holiday. This should be a non issue. The ridiculousness is mind blowing.

pdH and I had a blowup later on yesterday about an unrelated issue. He said some garbage about hiw unsupportive I am. I pointed out I had soent hours supporting him all day about this issue. I really did, I calidated him, encouraged him, it was a ton of work. Not complaining, just pointing out that I could refute his claim with a fresh example.

He told me that I made him do it, it wasn't support, I was just using and manipulating him to get what I wanted. Sigh. So now the story has changed and insted if "us" deciding to stay home, I "made" him.

I asked him if he remembered the 10 times I said "you don't have to do this, I'm just throwing this out there" - I am sincerely curious if his memory goes poof or he rewrites it in his head or what. I guess it's the latter.

So I just niw got a pissy text from MIL. I am trying to keep a sense of humor about it but honestly that's me faking it. I am scared of MIL and her anger. She will hold this against us for years. I'm not exaggerating, this is just how she operates, we've seen it before.

Probably it sucks we dumped this on her the day before TG but it was just honestly when it came up, and H cannot deal with the anxiety to wait a few days.

Hopefully we can manage to bot ruin TG for ourselves. Hard to say. The fight last night sucked but maybe it "cleared the air" a little. Won't know what mood H is in fir a few more hours when he wakes up.

[Poison Ivy]

I totally support this decision, for your and your daughter's sake, if no one else's.

[NumbLotus]

Yup, gotcha.

H did the WWIII phone call today, and MIL kept him on the phone for an hour - would have been longer but I had dinner ready.

It was ridiculous. She pulled out all the stops. Apparently she "doesn't even have a relationship with her granddaughter." She asked H if he caref about her (MIL) at all. And on and on and on.

H did a good job on the phine, held the line 100%, controlled himself so he didn't explode at her. It was ridiculous, like I'm embarassed for her behavior.

H is now asking me every hour if it was even worth it. He feels like he got hit by a train.

And MIL was the "good" parent. Jeez.

[all4peace]

This stuff is complex and painful.

My DH spent years upon years blaming me for "making him see" his family's dysfunction. Finally in T our T called him out on it and he has gradually stopped trying to shift his discomfort onto my shoulders.

I think it's an unfortunate part of being human...we feel anxious, afraid, angry, lonely sad....and it's sometimes easier to blame someone else for "making us" feel that way rather than taking our power back and being fully adult, admitting that actually WE are choosing to make changes in our life that are hard, scary and might make our parents angry.

I can barely remember how DH and I have gradually, over years, made our way through this but we certainly had plenty of uncomfortable conversations that sound a lot like you describe here.

One thing we now do is have a full family discussion about every holiday--Dh, me and our 2 adult and nearly-adult kids--we sit down and discuss what we ALL want to do for any given holiday. It would be pretty hard for anybody to "blame" anybody else when we've had a democratic conversation to decide our holiday plans.

Hope that helps. Thanks for sharing. It's good to know we're not alone in this.

ETA: I'm sorry for how the phone call went for your DH with your MIL. Really, her behavior could illuminate for him that she's not behaving like someone who cares too much about the needs of the other person (your DH). I don't think it's entirely reasonable to expect that one's family will spend every single holiday with them. We also got the "I don't even know my grandchildren!!" wailing from MIL, who ignored our kids on a weekly basis at public events and yet pulled out this kind of manipulation as a way to get time with our DD alone (who didn't want to be with her gma, alone).

Your DH asking if it was worth it....that's how manipulation works. The manipulator makes it so miserable for us to have even basic boundaries that we start to wonder what on earth we've done, if it was worth it, and if somehow we've done something terribly wrong. You haven't done anything wrong. Hang in there.

[NumbLotus]

Thanks for your reply. I managed to box up most of my feelings but awoke at 4am being unable to stop thinking about it. Had the dread in my tummy. It's not even my mother. I really have to feel for people with toxic FOOs. (I'm lucky in that department).

I assume your DH doesn't have a PD. mine has strong PD traits and has fallen ill with a severe case of PTSD (and I am finding it is a physical illness, not just mental). So that's why he blamed me - I'm his scapegoat when he is stressed, which due to illness is now always. But his blame on this may never come up again, it was really just a weapon for the argument we had, nothing more.

So what with the PD, converations mean nothing. We can be in full agreement and then it's out the window. It's like trying to pin down a river. H and I had a lovely, democratic discussion, with me being heavily supportive of his feelings and telling him it's his choice since he will have to bear the brunt, and with PD that gets forgotten and twisted in an instant.

Lol that you also got the "we don't even know our grandchildren" line.  It must be in a book somewhere.

You're right about the "was it worth it"! H also wondered why MIL is willing to go through all that agony since it doesn't even work - in other words, she's never changed his mind. But I told him, oh, it's working great! You're not going this year but next time you're thinking of going against her you'll have that feeling of dread and decide it's easier not to go against her. How many times have we just gone along just to keep her happy? LOTS AND LOTS.

Honestly one starts to wonder - if it's so miserable, maybe we should just go NC. How about that, MIL? You could just be normal about this and take what you can get without it being horrible, or maybe we'll decide NONE of it is worth the hassle.

[PeanutButter]

So yesterday I floated the idea to H. I told him I was just throwing the idea out there, and if he didn't want to deal with the blowup, I would not bring it up again. He was stressed about the idea but kept wanting to talk about it. Finally he decided to do it.
He tried to call his mother but she wasn't home. He can't stand the agony of putting off pain so he texted her, and also his FM sister. He even threw in a placation that he would "make up" the visit in Jan or Feb. So it's done. Time for WWIII to begin.
This is so ridiculous. MIL doesn't own our holiday. This should be a non issue. The ridiculousness is mind blowing.
pdH and I had a blowup later on yesterday about an unrelated issue. He said some garbage about hiw unsupportive I am. I pointed out I had soent hours supporting him all day about this issue. I really did, I calidated him, encouraged him, it was a ton of work. Not complaining, just pointing out that I could refute his claim with a fresh example.
He told me that I made him do it, it wasn't support, I was just using and manipulating him to get what I wanted. Sigh. So now the story has changed and insted if "us" deciding to stay home, I "made" him.
I asked him if he remembered the 10 times I said "you don't have to do this, I'm just throwing this out there" - I am sincerely curious if his memory goes poof or he rewrites it in his head or what. I guess it's the latter.

I have gained so much from all4peace on this subject! Im also still going through this with my H only making baby steps towards boundaries.
What I do know might relate to this question you asked : "I asked him if he remembered the 10 times I said "you don't have to do this, I'm just throwing this out there" - I am sincerely curious if his memory goes poof or he rewrites it in his head or what. "
Here is what I recently found out about my H. He 'interprets' what I say means instead of taking my words at face value. So if this convo would have been between me and my H, I would guess that the way his inner critic described to him what I wanted left him to feel like he had no choice but to do it to keep me happy. It is 'mind reading' and 'feelings equal facts' fleas I think. I use to be so flabbergasted too when my H would do to me similarly to what you describe.

[NumbLotus]

Thanks for your reply, that is interesting.

For context, my H has way more than fleas - he is more dysfunctional than MIL. (It was FIL who did the most damage).

But what I am curious about - do you think the IC hears it that way at the time? Or rewrites it later?

This, having nothing to do with MIL, just baffles me. I sincerely don't believe H is actively manipulating me, but it's like there are several drivers at the wheel or something.

So maybe, as you say, his IC hears a certain thing and it comes out later.

Or, he is just using it against me as a PD rhetorical win-at-any-cost-even-rhat-of-the-truth tactic.

Or, his current emotional state is so overdriving that feelings create facts and he could have felt fine at the time but later didn't feel good and decuded that was why?

Or, I just don't know. But it has destroyed all trust I can have in him. This case was nbd but he can promise something but then things dramatically change, he doesn't always remember conversations even major ones, and I there is no consistency in his positjons, thoughts, feelings, values, interpretations, etc.

[PeanutButter]

Thanks for your reply, that is interesting.

For context, my H has way more than fleas - he is more dysfunctional than MIL. (It was FIL who did the most damage). My MIL was also the 'good' parent. FIL was horribly emotionally, verbally, and physically abusive to H. MIL is covert npd. She demanded total engulfment/enmeshment with H. To this day she still tries to control EVERYTHING. He only very recently realized that she was also abusive.

But what I am curious about - do you think the IC hears it that way at the time? Or rewrites it later? With my H I believe it is 'rewritten' at the point that his emotions escalate (fear, anxiety, or possibly emotional flashback) so that can be while the origional convo is happening or later when he is dealing with the fallout or whatever. I hope this makes sense.
This, having nothing to do with MIL, just baffles me. I sincerely don't believe H is actively manipulating me, but it's like there are several drivers at the wheel or something.  I totally get this. I feel the different aspects 'emotionally' of my H's personality (which we all have) are slightly more pronounced or disconnected maybe. Almost like he couldnt be his parents son and my H at the same time.

So maybe, as you say, his IC hears a certain thing and it comes out later.  yes mine may 'go along to get along' with his words at the time but actually be 'feeling' it as something hurtful but repress that and it will come out later as that is the way he remembers.

Or, he is just using it against me as a PD rhetorical win-at-any-cost-even-rhat-of-the-truth tactic.

Or, his current emotional state is so overdriving that feelings create facts and he could have felt fine at the time but later didn't feel good and decuded that was why? i dont know of course but again if it was my H i would say yes. Waiting for the fall out because he couldnt get hold of mil immediately his anxiety escalated as the day progressed his inner critic was telling him all the hell that was coming his way later from his M he knows he doesnt deserve it but it cant be that his M is mean hes not allowed to admit his M is mean so someone else must be the bad guy. He is probably conciously aware of very little of all of this and tries to repress any of it that comes into his awareness.

Or, I just don't know. But it has destroyed all trust I can have in him. This case was nbd but he can promise something but then things dramatically change, he doesn't always remember conversations even major ones, and I there is no consistency in his positjons, thoughts, feelings, values, interpretations, etc.  My H definately files the memories of away as how he felt about a conversation not what was actually spoken. Im so sorry I too felt like this. But since my H is other wise trust worthy and I love him deeply; he is kind, sensitive, and so accepting of everyone; I wanted to be able to deal with it better.
So I try to figure out what he really feels. Sometimes he doesnt even know.
I try bringing my focus always back to myself. BUT as I learn and grow I tell my H about the personality quirks and fleas that I have found I have. This has led him to some realizations. Also discussing my pd foo to him helped him to see similarities with his. 
/quote]

[Lilyloo]

I am on your side all the way in this! My H is just the same and there's been many blowups about his enmeshed family. He doesn't even get it and never will.  Sad to say because of them, I'm glad when holidays are over

My MIL was the same, her way or she was ticked off. I often tried to change things a bit but with my children and H tending to go more towards H's family I was the outcast

I do set boundaries now that MIL has passed away. Sadly it's his sister now

[NumbLotus]

It's escalating.

It's just ridiculous.

[PeanutButter]

It's escalating.

It's just ridiculous.

Im thinking about you! Im sorry for your pain.
IT IS REDICULOUS! And I find it beyond frustrating that updMIL claims what she does is normal and about loving her family! SHE DOES NOT CARE ABOUT WHAT IS BEST FOR HER SON! (Or her grandchildren) All she does is spread misery, create turmoil, and ruin relationships and lives. To say I hate her is an understatement. Ive tried really hard not to hate her too.
There comes a time when we MUST protect ourselves! We only get one life!  It may be time to set a boundary to get some peace of mind.
Im here for you! You can say anything or ask anything.
What you are going through is heartbreaking!
I wish you peace in all things. Take care.

[xredshoesx]

what a hard position to be in numblotus- seems like you are dammed if you do and dammed if you don't  with the way the events turned since your DH notified that you all wouldn't go.

what if your H goes by himself for a nice visit?  i agree with you that he's made you the scapegoat for the decision about changing the plans, but i wonder what he would do if you put the choice back on him to participate by himself.

we had to deal with similar issues with my MIL until she moved across the state.   her life plan after her husband died was to have my DH and her other kids take turns supporting her so she didn't have to have any grown people responsibilities.  she stopped speaking to me for a while after i told her she just didn't get to plan our lives like that...  it was awkward at several holidays but worth the peace it created knowing she knew she couldn't just move in when she wanted.

[PeanutButter]

I like the suggestion xredshoesx made.
I remembered something this morning i wanted to add to my origional description of my H's traits. It seems that sometimes my simply asking him what he thinks or wants to do about something gets a reaction from him as if im trying to change or at least influence what he thinks or wants to do, when I am not. Idk if yours may do this also but i wanted add that.
I hope you get a reprieve soon!

[NumbLotus]

Thanks for all the feedback.

In the iriginal conversation when I floated the idea of staying home this year, H actually did offer early on to do the trip himself. Not because he wanted to but out if FOG. I pointed out that when daughter said she'd like a Christmas at home, she meant with her family. And it's ridiculous that he would have to please his mother at the expense of his daughter.

Anyway, H is pretty clear-eyed about his mother, but it's just so hard emotionally dealing with this. And so utterly stupid.

I think my H has forgotten about blaming me for this - until the next time he is triggered, that is. His blaming of me is both very strong and very inconsistent. If I brought it up and he was in an open mood, he'd probably say he "didn't mean it, was just mad."

At this point my philosophy with him is, "it doesn't mean anything."

H blames me for something? It doesn't mean anything.

He apologizes for it? Doesn't mean anything.

Says he is going to start trying harder to X? Doesn't mean anything.

Says he hopes i die? Doesn't mean anything.

Says he is going to the store right now? Well, it means he will probably go sometime today. And there is a chance that won't even happen.

[SunnyMeadow]

Says he hopes i die? Doesn't mean anything.

This definitely means something to me. This would immediately change how I felt about DH. In my opinion, there is no way he could come back from this. I'm sorry for what you're going through with your MIL but more sorry about your husband NumbLotus.

[NumbLotus]

Yes, my H is the main issue for me. The MIL thing is just a thing tbat is happening.

Of course, for H, the thing with his mother is closer to the main issue.

I am considering leaving. Not making any moves this month, though. My mind is so cloudy I am having a hard time formulating any plan.

Hey, if I leave in January, I won't have to visit MIL! lol

[nanotech]

I'm sending hugs 🤗 numbLotus.
In my view, that's  not something husbands should be saying. Really isn't. Even in the heat of the moment.
If you stay, try to lay some boundaries regarding how he speaks to you.
I'm really sure he doesn't mean it, but I would have a hard time dealing with that if mine said it to me.
Hugs xxxxx

[PeanutButter]

Yes, my H is the main issue for me. The MIL thing is just a thing tbat is happening.

Of course, for H, the thing with his mother is closer to the main issue.

I am considering leaving. Not making any moves this month, though. My mind is so cloudy I am having a hard time formulating any plan.

Hey, if I leave in January, I won't have to visit MIL! lol

IME you dont need to make any decisions while your mind is so cloudy. If you can try to take good care of yourself right now.
NONE of this is your fault. You are the only one in the situation handling it maturely and appropriately in the best interest of your daughter.
I agree that you husbands place is with his foc on the holiday.