What now?

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Whiteheron

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What now?
« on: November 29, 2019, 01:35:50 PM »
We are very close to settlement. Everything has been agreed upon, and minor sticking points have been addressed and written up. Everyone's goal was to get this wrapped up and signed before next week to avoid a trial. Everyone (L's, GAL) agreed to this at our last appearance. GAL then read the finalized agreement and had a few minor tweaks in language, but she agreed the document looks good. This was three weeks ago.

Last week, I started getting antsy. Hadn't heard anything from my L about the agreement. My L contacts stbx's L with no response. She sends a note to the court asking to postpone the appearance because we hadn't heard back from stbx's L and wants to give him time to respond. Court says no. GAL and my L ask that this be a telecon to save valuable court resources (judge is over an hour away). Court is amenable to this. stbx's L says no. Apparently stbx is demanding we go back in front of the judge to "get the court's opinion on a few unresolved matters that will require the court's input" (paraphrased).

Instead of sending over any concerns/amendments they have/want to make, now we have to do it in front of a judge?? My L is demanding stbx's L call her before the appointment to discuss these matters, and has made it clear to the court that this is a waste of everyone's time, especially since they won't tell us what they have concerns with. Why do I think stbx's L will not reveal anything to my L unless it's in front of the judge?

I feel as if I'm being set-up, blindsided by whatever this thing is. I can't think of a single thing I've done "wrong" (and I hate that I have to think like this...still!) I responded to stbx's text about wanting to meet me face to face. I took a few days to think about a response, even though he asked me to respond promptly, but that's my right. I let him know what was going on with the kids' schedules and offered to use a shared calendar again (he refused).

Idk. It's the holidays...maybe that's it. Things are coming to a close (fingers crossed), maybe he doesn't want to let go of the back and forth (he'll show me!). I just don't know. I am beside myself. It's really bringing me down (maybe that's his point?). I had allowed myself to have a glimpse of the other side...tried to imagine what it would be like to have this behind me, even though I will have to deal with stbx's nonsense for a long time to come.

I just had to vent. I know this is a common thing for PDs to do. I can't imagine he wants all of his dirty laundry aired in a trial. I just want this horrible nightmare to end. I feel I will never be free of this man.

You can't destroy me if I don't care.

Being able to survive it doesn't mean it was ever ok.

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capybara

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Re: What now?
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2019, 02:59:54 PM »
I feel for you, WhiteHeron! I suspect you're right, and it's the holidays and he just can't let go. At least your L will be there. And hopefully he will be making himself look bad in front of the judge. Where I am, judges seem to really hate anything they see as a waste of time.

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Spygirl

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Re: What now?
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2019, 04:10:04 PM »
Hang in there.

Chances are its' just a blip to try to waste more time. I am hoping the judge is irritated with him for your sake and ends it all right there.

I know it makes you nervous waiting for whatever it is, but you just have to be calm.

Common theme wanting it over and the pd throwing up anything to look like a winner. To "get you" one last time.

A short story:

At the very end of my divorce mediation, when we had to sign off the settlement, my expd came in complaining of wanting "changes in language" that had no effect on the judgement. He wanted it retyped.

The mediator said it would have no effect, the judgement was already done and accepted by me WITH MY EXPDS DEMANDS. So my expd took a pen, lined through the language he disliked, and then signed.
I looked at the mediator, who was annoyed, and then i signed. So he accepted the paperwork and filed with the judge, who thankfully accepted it.

It was a stall tactic. I am sure the though he could delay it another month for a retype.

My expd was shocked when he asked the mediator when we had to come back again and the lawyer said "you dont. You will get the divoce decree in the mail from court. We are finished"

We walked out, he faced me, nodded his head turned and walked away. Game over.

I did a toyota jump for joy when i got home.....

You are almost there!

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Whiteheron

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Re: What now?
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2019, 08:17:24 PM »
It's been almost three years and tens of thousands of $$$. I haven't totaled it all up yet. I'm afraid to. It just needs to end. This back and forth nonsense has become the new normal and I hate it.

This appearance will cost me over $1000, and that doesn't count taking time off of work to drive over there and spend half the day. He is wasting everyone's time to what? Make some kind of a point? Pull one over on me? One up me? I'm just so very done. I'm exhausted.

Who knows what will happen with this storm. Maybe the appearance will be delayed after all  :upsidedown:

so close, yet so far...
You can't destroy me if I don't care.

Being able to survive it doesn't mean it was ever ok.

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Poison Ivy

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Re: What now?
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2019, 08:24:50 PM »
I'm sorry about your situation.  Maybe your husband just likes to fight.  Some people with ADHD get a rush from arguments and disagreements.  I'm not saying your husband has that disorder, but there are probably folks without ADHD who also seek out fights because of the thrill they cause

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Liftedfog

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Re: What now?
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2019, 12:17:23 AM »
Whiteheron, God help both of us.  I'm in a similar boat. Expdh ranted he wanted to settle, no trial.  He's  been saying this for years.  Finally he gets his voice back from the courts. He is no longer deemed special party. I explained this in another post.  So my lawyer sends my offer to settle.  10 days go by and nothing.  My lawyer follows up.  Expdh wants the offer we came to at mediation but went nowhere because his asshole lawyer at the time set me up and had no intentions of settling.  We send that offer.   Heard nothing. It's been a month. In the meantime time I'm paying my lawyer to prepare for trial since we are on the list.  So more stalling. No movement. Only more money burned.  It's almost 7 years of this shit. I can't take it anymore. No settlement.  And no trial because expdh has not filed one damn paper. He is dripping of mental Illness and is self repping. I hope your nightmare comes to an end. I'm sorry you are dealing with such dysfunction and torture at the hands of a sick man.

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Penny Lane

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Re: What now?
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2019, 10:49:17 PM »
WH, I'm so sorry.

Maybe? you can take solace in the fact that this is one of H's ex's favorite tricks. After you think all the fighting is done, that you've finally come to the end - she always, ALWAYS, tries to throw a wrench into it.

The good thing is that when H stands strong, he usually prevails.

I can't imagine that your stbx is going to say something that will impress the judge or that will seem worth the delay and the secrecy. I think if anything he will further ruin his credibility with the court.

It's still a ridiculous and frustrating waste of time, money and emotional energy.

Hang in there, you are SO close.

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Whiteheron

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Re: What now?
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2019, 10:55:32 AM »
Thanks all.

I'm also worried because stbx wouldn't even sign the temporary custody agreement. The previous judge had to read it into the record. If stbx couldn't sign a temporary document, what makes me think a permanent separation agreement will be any easier for him?

Part of me is wondering if this is the reason behind his continuous delays...if he just can't make himself sign it (gives up his illusion of controlling the process), or if the reason is more PD in nature -if he likes the back and forth (presumably he assumes he has my full attention), if the constant back and forth is a source of supply for him, way to attempt to control me from a distance, etc.

I should find out in a few days.
You can't destroy me if I don't care.

Being able to survive it doesn't mean it was ever ok.

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hhaw

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Re: What now?
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2019, 05:06:18 PM »
WH:

My experience with PDs in court is that PDs are pathologically unable to agree to anything, and that's why the courts are chocked full of lawsuits involving PDs.

PDs waste our time, money, and emotional health on ploys.... pretending to agree to somethng, then spending lots of time talking about it with attorneys, then figuring every detail out THEN saying they've decided nOW to go to court... it's a very common PD ploy, IME.

I think they lob big'ol spit balls at us... and we spend lots of time fielding them, and disproving negatives.  it doens't take any time at all to lob false accusations.  It takes tons to field them.  The PD IS winning if we don't hold the PD accountable, and go righht to the courtroom to lay out documentation and facts to support our case, with the PD having very little to back up theirs, IME. 

That's why getting into a courtroom quickly is useful, and cuts down on time, expense, and trauma, IME. 

Reading all the new PD BS in formal letters, and legal documents is terrifying.   Every time, IME. 

Holding the PD's feet to the fire, going straight to court after a cursory attempt to settle out of court.... KNOWING that the PD will refusze to sign any agreement UNLESS WE GET IT SIGNED RIGHT THERE AT THE MEETING, walked down to the file cler, FILED and STAMPED that day.... we don't really have a settlement with a PD, iME.

If you do try to settle again, have that stipulation agreed to.... that both parties will sign the handwritten agreement right there, and no more money will be wasted on attorneys "crafting" the agreement back at their offices.

One thing abnout going to court with the PD is..... Judges are generally very ticked off by the PDs lack of evidence, and failure to prove anything (provided we don't lose it and give the Judge a reason to hate us, and suspect our mental health is off).

If we can show the Court we're reasonable, doing all we can to shield our children from the adult struggle.... trying to get out of court, and avoid trial..... Judges are looking for people to punish.  They resent having to hear ANY case.  They tend to punish everyone in the courtroom so prove your case.  have empathy for the Judge, and show empathy for the PD for truly he's ill, and can't do better.  You're trying to help him be the best parent he can be to his children... to your children, bc you care about your kids, and not about punishing the PD.

The PD is invested in punishing you through the kids, and the legal system.... that's something the Courts typically don't appreciate, and do punish, IME. 

At some point it's reasonable to ask the Court to have the PD pay all your legal expenses, bc his actions expqanded the case, and created the waste of resources, and time... the courts, yours, the kids, everyone's.

The thing about the wasting time nad money is that he's wasting his own too.  It's difficult for the court to understand this, bc it makes zero sense.... and will never make any sense.  You can't outright SAY that, but you can lay out your evidence, and show the court. 

IME, if you do that, while holding some empathy for the PD in your in action and speech, the Court has the space to really get it, and do something to stop the PDs abuse of the court system, you, and the kids, IME.

I'm not sure how it works... IF you can say you tried to settle, over and over and over, and the PD kept botching it up after saying he agreed...... honestly I think everyone involved talks to each other.... the Judge WILL know this, but it's not clear what you can say about it. 

In our case the PDs did things that were insane, and we found them during the trial.... it dropped the Judge's jaw, but she got it back together, appreared to have no biase during the case, but she f'ing hated the PDs, and she ruled accordingly, and then she awarded me court expenses of over 80K, which the PDs paid on time, without complaint, and I can't know why, but that was the ONLY time they ever did anything they were supposed to do without filing for reconsideration and appeals. 

Don't fear the courtroom. 

Be ready to go and plead your case in front of the Judge without fear.  The harsh light of the courtroom favors she who has the best records.

Sometimes the PDs put on quite a show on the witness stand, but I've never seen one do well... not ever... for extended periods, and certainly not when questioned by opposing counsel.  They seem charming, and sharp, or pitiful, or endearing....buy when opposing counsel corners them, shows them documentation they can't deny.... they drop their mast, iME.  They say what they really mean, or they whine, or they get really angry, and tell the Judge what to do, IME.

The silkiest ones keep lying, and sticking to their story, which is where good documentation comes in.  My female attorney once lined up over 20 documents on the jury rail...... with a smile on her face.... in front of my FIL who was on the witness stand, waiting for the next round of questions.... and he was already proven to be a liar...... those documents had his undivided attention, and you could see his temper go up up up.... and finally... finally.... he told that Judge exactly what his truth was.  I watched from between my fingers... it was frightening. 

I tried to write 2 small paragraphs, but I just keep tumbling down the rabbit hole on this post, so will just hit send, and hope it helps.

Stop wasting time on settlement discussions.  Agree and sign, or there's no agreement, IME.  Leave court dates in place,and plan on going to trial.... that's the quickest way out, IME.   The PDs think they want to go to Court, but that's just bc they get away with so much up to going to court, IME.  It takes zero energy to lob false accusations and posture as a victim.  It takes massive energy to disprove false accusations and negatives.... thery win UP TO THE POINT THEY HAVE TO PROVE all those accusations,  IME.

I've never setteled anytihng with a PD that wasn't at least on the courthouse steps before trial.  They force us to prepare for trial, even if we end up settling, so just get it over with, and once you're  done with this you can build on that evidence, and have them handy for future lawsuits. 

Breath deeply...... center yourself, and know court is the exxit door.  it's not something to fear.  Court can be your friend... just make sure you don't do or say things that makes the court dislike you.   I learn3ed to speak to people as though they were small children..... very slow, very calm.... small voice..... very helpful... super willing to get this over with.... always always empathy for the PD, and the kids at the top of every list.

This is verbal jujitsu, and a super competent expert witness, who testified in criminal cases only and did this as a favor to me, bc the injustice galled her badly..... taught me how to deal with the PDs, their attorneys, and their insane accusations without making look insane, defensive, or unlikable, which is super difficult when your children are on the line, IME.

In any way..... having our children threatened makes it almost impossible to stay out of fight or flight mode, so we practice speaking, go over our details, know where our documents are, and prepare to show the court exactly what we're dealing with, and get it over with.



hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

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Whiteheron

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Re: What now?
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2019, 03:54:48 PM »
It was a blindside. Complete and total.

stbx's L had ample opportunities to bring up any issues, my L asked multiple times. My L was told there were no issues. Then, a few minutes before the court meeting, stbx's L accuses me of alienation. Nothing to do with anything in the agreement, not contesting anything with that, accusing me of not being willing to sign, even though my L repeatedly said I was willing and able...

So everyone's time was wasted so I could be accused of alienating the kids...because the kids don't tell him everything. This must mean that I tell them to keep secrets from him.  :flat:
mmhmm. Or maybe, just maybe, the kids aren't comfortable discussing certain topics with him. A prospect that is unfathomable to this particular uPD, so it must be my fault.

My L is the best, she immediately countered with "did you even for one second think that the kids use my client as an 'out' when they don't want to answer their dad's barrage of questions?"

stbx's L had told my L that he wouldn't bring up the alienation in front of the judge...but he did.  :roll:

My L even received an apology from the judge to pass on to me. At our first meeting, the judge hadn't read the case file (there was no time). Judge had no idea what the issues were and that we had proven stbx was controlling to the extreme. Judge said she would have never recommended certain things (such as face to face meeting with stbx) if she'd known.

Before the meeting, I reminded my L that stbx was going to continue to stall and delay, just as he had in the past with the temporary custody agreement. After the meeting L and GAL were talking privately, and L mentioned that I had predicted exactly what was going to happen at this meeting. 1. Blindside, 2. Stall.

I asked what would happen if he continued to stall and delay - she said we would have to all sit down in front of judge who would pressure him into signing or immediate trial. L says this judge is a lot more no-nonsense than the previous one.

Will be yet another few weeks before anything happens.

You can't destroy me if I don't care.

Being able to survive it doesn't mean it was ever ok.

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Free2Bme

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Re: What now?
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2019, 10:39:09 PM »
White Heron,

So sorry for all you are going through.  This sounds like a reidiculous, desperate measure from the other camp.  From the outside looking in, it seems that you have it together and they are in the death throws, not wanting to give it up.  Making the deduction that the ONLY explanation the children are reticent to talk to him is because you have alienated them is absurd.  I really hope you will not have to spend weeks waiting.  Meanwhile, as much as you can, try and focus on self care. Rest and replenish yourself when you can.  :bighug:

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Penny Lane

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Re: What now?
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2019, 03:33:22 PM »
So did he get shot down or what was the judge's response?

I'm so glad she walked back her stance on face to face meetings. It seems like finally everyone gets it and you're just waiting for your ex to either sign or be forced to sign a document. My guess is that if he forces a trial, he'll end up with LESS than what your agreement was.

I keep saying this but hang in there, you're so close.

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Whiteheron

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Re: What now?
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2019, 06:17:17 PM »
Thanks all.

Family T is being pushed again (between stbx and DS) as a result of my "alienation tactics." This man just won't give up. He is bound and determined to have this bit of control over his son...what does he think forcing his son to do this against his will achieves?

You can't destroy me if I don't care.

Being able to survive it doesn't mean it was ever ok.

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hhaw

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Re: What now?
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2019, 08:27:33 PM »
The Judge is pushing for family T, or the PD and his attorney are pushing for it?

hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

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Whiteheron

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Re: What now?
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2019, 10:32:38 PM »
PD and his L
You can't destroy me if I don't care.

Being able to survive it doesn't mean it was ever ok.

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hhaw

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Re: What now?
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2019, 12:07:12 AM »
Thank God the Judge seems to understand what you're up against.

And that's the thing about PDs dragging us into court again and again.   MOST people settle, bc we're punished pretty badly if we fail to settle our case, IME. 

When someone ends up in  front of a Judge over and over and over.... there's something off about someone involved, IME.

The PDs eventually give themselves away, bc they just can't keep from overplaying, overdoing, and making one too many accusations they certainly can't "prove" in court without our assistance.  If we stay calm, reasonable, and focused on the kids... the Judge usually sees who the PD is, IME.

 



hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

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Whatthehey

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Re: What now?
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2019, 02:14:30 AM »
Whiteheron,

All of you, I needed this post tonight.  I go to trial in a week.  Hopefully the final and we are done.  My L is pretty good and keeping everyone on track.  I just know that my "overworked" stbxOCPDh is going to try to stall.  My L says its not his choice and there has been plenty of time to do the work.

All of your advice to each other is what I needed to hear.  Prayers and hugs to all of you!

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Whiteheron

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Re: What now?
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2019, 08:43:40 AM »
Best of luck to you, whatthehey! If he can't settle, I'll be a few weeks behind you. Let us know how it goes.
You can't destroy me if I don't care.

Being able to survive it doesn't mean it was ever ok.

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hhaw

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Re: What now?
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2019, 08:19:43 PM »
Wth:

Lean into trial.  You're almost to the exit door.

Good luck,
hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

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Whiteheron

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Re: What now?
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2019, 06:06:46 PM »
Parental Alienation. The kids don't tell him everything, therefore I must be telling them to keep secrets = parental alienation.  :flat:
I am so done. I'm honestly not sure how much more of this crap I can take. I'm being accused of this in front of the judge.

stbx found out from a third party something that DS hadn't told him, and honestly, it doesn't really matter. In his twisted mind, the only reason DS kept this from him was because I ordered him to. Has it ever occurred to him that he's the reason the kids don't tell him things?? Because of his reactions?? Of course not.
You can't destroy me if I don't care.

Being able to survive it doesn't mean it was ever ok.