starting negotiations

[Upstream]

Filed for divorce last August (2018), and stbx refused to cooperate with court orders to hand in retirement info, so this has taken a long time. Now he has a new girlfriend, and wants the divorce. He sent a letter through his lawyer asking if I want to buy out his half of the house, and demanding the kids and I move out and the house be sold if I dont want to buy. Of, course, I've been hoping he'd sell to me, bc last year, when there was no gf, he wanted the house, in the hopes he could get the kids, since they want to live in the house.
So his pattern has been: Send a letter from lawyer, and before I get it, invite me through private email to meet and discuss things amicably. But since I havent got his lawyers letter, I'd actually be in the dark about his intentions in a private meeting. And he's notorious for appearing agreeing, just to see what you'll agree to, and then pulling back and upping his demands. So I have refused all offers to meet privately.

So heres my dilemma. A year ago, we had the house appraised at price X. Now he wants to have the house appraised again, and told son that he thinks the house is worth price Y, which is 80,000 MORE than the estimate from last year. My bank loan officer said she knows our area, and he's gouging the price. So how do I "force" him to accept a fair price for the house? Telling him that my appraisal is price X is irrelevant to him. And asking him nicely to agree on a fair price is also futile. I need a lever that will put him under pressure. He never agrees out of his free will. He will need to be forced.

Also, he has racked up 40K in debt over the last 12 months(vacations, car, computers etc), and is trying to make himself too poor to pay child support. Can I ask a judge to award me hubbys half of the house in exchange for child support? Or freeze his assets? Any ideas? Once he sells his half of the house, he'll have spent that money in a year, and then try to weasel his way out of child support. Kids are 13 and 17, and in our country of residence (European) they are entitled to support till they finish college, which they both plan to attend.

Any advice?

Upstream

[Whatthehey]

Upstream, I'm not in Europe but my advice is to get a shark of a lawyer and protect your interests. Here in my state divorce is very straightforward with little left to the imagination.

Dont let him push you. Yes, I completely understand the desire for it to be over and agree just to be done. I am grateful that my shark of a lawyer told me no so many times and I will be better off for it.

Hugs to you!!

[Upstream]

Good advice. I've got a shark, but she hasnt got much time (or patience)for explaining strategy to me, and I want to be able to think along and be saavy. Hhaw's words also keep ringing in my ears after reading the advice to WhiteHeron ....about having top notch documentation, and knowing that the only real agreement is the one that is signed immediately. 😬

[Rose1]

2 valuations minimum. It is what it is. Certainly you could ask the judge to award you child support out of the house. Especially if you have proof of him delaying. I would not be alone with him ever, especially now.

I think you have a lever - he wants out this time because he has a relationship. He's trying to impress. If it falls flat you're back to square one no doubt. So good timing. Get it done. He wont like what youre asking but he hasnt proven himself reliable and you have your kids to think about

[GettingOOTF]

My ex refused the divorce until there was a situation where his girlfriend was going to find out he was still married. He'd told her he was divorced, all the time refusing to grant me one. She got a real prize, but that's a different story.

I took advantage of his distraction and desire to get it done to push for everything I wanted. It's a large part of the reason I got away without paying alimony or giving up any of my assets.  He didn't work and had an official BPD diagnosis so I could have been on the hook for the rest of my life.

Tell your attorney what you want, have all communications go through her, don't agree to anything with your ex. If you do have a good attorney she should know what you can ask for and how to get it. Communicate with her. Put it all in an email. Let her know what you want to walk away with and what you are prepared to concede.

Keep your eye on the big picture, don't get distracted by the crap he will try to pull. In a couple of years you won't care about the small things like who got the tax credit the last year you were able to file as married or who got the dinning table. He will try to distract you with stuff like this. Stay focused and work closely with your attorney.

I let my ex take some stuff that was mine and I didn't want to give up, I also paid some of his debt because I wanted him to sign away rights to all the stuff that ultimately would matter down the line, like half my retirement.

I will forever be grateful to my exes girlfriend for being the distraction she was. Your ex being distracted is a great opportunity for you, use it.

[Penny Lane]

I agree with Rose. His girlfriend is a lever, and possibly the best one you'll get.

Your instinct is right. Don't be alone with him.

Even with him being motivated to settle, this is going to be a tough, long and potentially expensive process. This is true whether you make a push now or later. So I say make a push to get it done while the gf is in play.

Some of your questions are specific to your jurisdiction and I would definitely ask your lawyer what you can and can't ask for around the house and child support. Make sure you're clear in your own mind about what you're entitled to and not. And if there's a possibility that you could end up being liable for his new debt, DEFINITELY ask a judge to put a stop to it pending the divorce.

So, are you living in the house right now? So he wants you to move out of the house and pay him half the value? And he's overinflating the value? To me this sounds like an insultingly bad opening offer. But remember, this is negotiations.

Here is where you go from here, I think:
Like I said figure out from your lawyer what you are entitled to, and while you're at it have her give you a sense of what a judge is likely to order or what she's most commonly seen.

Then, figure out in your own head your bottom line. What is the minimum you would accept on any issues that are important to you. Be realistic - your minimum might end up being what the lawyer says the judge is most likely to do anyway. Because even if you don't like it, there's no point in going through the expense just to have a judge rule it anyway. This can be on money, on the house, on custody issues, on agreements around not letting him harass you - whatever you want to see in the final order.

You also want a list of things that aren't dealbreakers but are nice to have. For example on the house maybe your bottom line is that you would buy him out for fair market value. But then the nice to have is that you get to stay in the house with the kids. These should be reasonable, things that you think a reasonable adverse party would agree to (even though you know your ex is not).

Then, file a motion pushing it toward trial. Ask for everything you're entitled to legally and then some. Inflate any numbers by 50% or more if you can. The caveat is, don't go so high that the judge will think you're being ridiculous. But you want your ex to see that he could really get hit where it hurts if he doesn't come to the table and negotiate. Or maybe the motion is one asking the judge to find him in violation of the previous order to turn over his retirement records. Whatever moves it forward. But ideally you will file a court document asking for something that really scares him, whether it's turning over his information or paying you way more than he wants to.

After you do that you send him a settlement offer that's much more reasonable. Basically it's everything you're entitled to legally, along with your bottom line and ALL the nice to haves. Be specific - make sure to address his new debt, child support, the house, any assets you have, parenting time if that's on the table, no contact stipulation if that's possible. Say (through your lawyer), look, we can settle this. If you don't like this offer, send over yours. Make him put it down on paper. It'll be insane but you might be able to find some points of agreement.

If you can't - and even if it looks like he's moving forward - push toward a trial. Sometimes with an impending deadline, even a PD will settle. Especially if he's worried that you will get more of his money or whatever is motivating here. Or if he's worried that it'll drag out and doesn't want his girlfriend to see that.

This is important - be ready to go to trial if you have to. That is very possibly the only way you will end this. You don't want to get up to the point of a trial and then fold, because then he'll always know you're not serious about court stuff and he'll act accordingly. Sometimes the best way out is through, and if you embrace that rather than avoid it, you'll be better off.

This is a very specific outline and I realize it doesn't work for every situation. But I think the principles do - let him know that you're going to ask for what you're owed, and that you're not afraid of a fight. Let him know that you're going to be incredibly polite and reasonable and someone that will be VERY sympathetic to a judge. Make it clear that he cannot manipulate you, he has to go through the lawyers. And most importantly that this process WILL move forward with or without his consent. And, hopefully, scare him a little. Ideally he will realize that he'll be better off sitting down and negotiating reasonably. But if not you'll be prepared to go to trial and resolve it that way.

Good luck. This is HARD. But you can do it, I really mean it. And you will be so much better off when this is all over.

[Upstream]

Thanks GettingOOTF and Rose for your insight and experience. I can see from your experience that using the girlfriend lever is going to make things better. Even though it seems bad, I need to remember that it'd be worse without her in the picture.

PennyLane,
THANK YOU for the detailed strategy plan. Its JUST what I needed. I spent the day yesterday resting up, and sat myself down at my desk today and spent the entire afternoon preparing to meet with my lawyer on Friday. Drawing out a mind map of my options, with numbers, organizing my thoughts on paper over and over till its succinct. Getting my bottom line worked out. Going over the financial worksheet I did with my lawyer and revising it and putting documentation as proof together. Going through years of various bank statements. Its not in my nature to play the negotiating game...start high and then move aggressively towards court. But I believe this will be the cheapest and fairest way out. And I've got a good lawyer by my side. She knows him and we won custody last year. So now we're down to the money. So she knows him and the judge assigned to finalize our divorce knows him, and thats worth a lot.
But I'm not good at strategy, so your long post is something I will be reading many times over.
I meet with a real estate agent on Thurs to have the house appraised again. Meet with my lawyer on Friday. 
I'm buckling my seatbelt...

Upstream

[Penny Lane]

I'm so glad it's helpful! Stay strong and get what you deserve! You can do this. I hope you'll come back and let us know how it goes.