Enmeshed mother daughter relationship

[loving worried husband]

Hi all,

I am very new to writing to anyone about concerns but I believe my situation is getting beyond fixable soon. PLEASE tell me if you think I am over reacting and I have broad shoulders so any criticism is welcome.

First of all I love my wife and respect her to no end especially after seeing her go through child birth with our daughter recently. I have a huge issue with her and her mothers relationship which needs some serious boundaries set down but i don't know where to start as my wife feels she is stuck in a bind between having a healthy marriage and a mother who wants her full attention and lives life through my wife. I have brought this all up a few times but very carefully as I don't want to sound like i am attacking anyone (and lets be honest some men can't say things in a nice way although we think we are) I just want a better life for me and my family like everyone does but at the moment I have a full time family and a full time Mil who feels she needs to know everything we do every day and my wife tells her everything as she can't say no or ignore her.

I am going to try and keep this as a very short version of what I am dealing with at the moment and I am not sure how to fix, my wife doesn't want to go see someone about it as she doesn't realise its a huge issue. My MIL won't talk to me directly even in the same room if she wants to ask if i like something or how my day was at work for example she will ask my wife (although I am within 5 metres of her) she has a sick obsession with my wife and everything in her life revolves around her, my MIL tries to turn all conversations to her and make them her idea and repeats what people say all the time, this has been the case since we got together. We haven't had any privacy from the start, MIL wants to know everything even wanted to know where we were going for the honeymoon and what room which is beyond weird and disgusting.

I have had to deal with the MIL babying her and contacting her 10-20 times a day (text messages first but if she doesn't reply in an hour she then will keep calling) as her mother feels she is still a child and needs to be told to have a shower, go to bed and make sure she has brushed her teeth (might I add we don't and never have lived with her mother since we have been together). She refers to my wife (35yr old) as babe and baby which is to me disgusting to say the least. I have spoken to my wife about this a number of times but she is too afraid to talk to her mother about it as her mother makes my wife feel like a child and she doesn't want her mum to get cranky at her which all she needs to do is establish healthy boundaries which the 2 of them don't have.

My wife's mother was brought up in a manipulating, narcissistic back ground and its a case of monkey see monkey do and she is doing all the same things to my wife and I am not sure what to do as I suggest counselling, I have had counselling to deal with things with regards to it myself and previous depression which I seem to manage well but only because I get the right help to make me the best person for my wife and daughter and the counsellor wants me to bring my wife but it won't happen, my wife see's a counsellor as she has failed which hurts me as its not that at all. I want to have my wife back and make her understand she doesn't need to have this behaviour in our life IF she establishes boundaries. My wife'e family have mentally bullied her for so long and she goes into a slave like manner when she is around them waiting for orders and its hard to deal with from a husbands point of view as she shouldn't feel like this and all my friends and family see how she changes around her mother and family and think she is too much of a nice person to have to be treated the way her family treat her. I am in a hard situation as I don't want my wife to resent her mother or put a thorn between them I just want them to establish some healthy boundaries which is hard with them both, wife wants peace and her mother wants full control and then their is me who like all husbands wants a happy, healthy family with both our families to respect our privacy. Sometimes I feel like I am over reacting but I haven't know someone who gets 20-30 messages a day from their mother trying to control their life and accepts it.

I have healthy boundaries with my parents they get a call every second weekend and a FaceTime call at that so they get to see their grand daughter and they respect that and understand I don't need to be check on every hour of the day. My parents speak to us as 'guys' or 'you 2' as it's a respectful thing to do we are a couple not single. When the MIL is on the phone when we say bye she says 'bye babe' which is my wife to her and goes. Am I the only one who thinks this is sick? I would kind of understand if she called others babe as its her personality but my wife is the only one she calls babe and baby.

When my wife's mother senses I am not happy with her she will ask my wife if I need anything and she tries to buy my respect which i decline as I am one to want for nothing other then a warm house to go home too and a wife and child which completes me but its so difficult when my wife has to hide the fact her mother is constantly messaging her even at night wanting to know what her and my daughter are doing still and this is 7 days a week might i say. I asked them to respect our life and NO contact on weekends but it fell on deaf ears now since out daughter was born as now its like the MIL needs to be in contact all the time or she isn't in control.

Sorry that was maybe longer then i expected but sometimes its better to get it all out and trust me thats only scratching the surface of it all. I am just respectful of my wife feelings so I tell her the concerns and its then up to her if she wants to have a conversation with her mother herself or I step in and have a civil conversation and establish the issues and work through them with the both of them. I want to the MIL in our life but not on a full time basis which is what it seems like without her actually physically being in the house constantly.

[Poison Ivy]

I don't think you're overreacting. 

[overitall]

Husband,

First of all, I'm sorry you are going through this...I think you need to sit down with your wife and have a very important talk...have you discussed with her how much this is an issue in your marriage?  I'm sure your wife will feel torn between you and her mother, but once you are married, that relationship has to become the primary focus....your wife should get counseling with someone who is educated in PD's...

From what you are describing, your MIL is not treating you well at this point...running everything through your wife instead of addressing you directly is disrespectful....you and YOUR WIFE need to set some boundaries...strong boundaries...at this point, there are three people in your marriage--you, your wife, and her mom...You need to get your MIL out of your marriage and you need to make your wife understand how important this is...If this continues, your MIL will continue to make your life miserable and it will only get worse...

Your wife is probably so conditioned to MIL's behaviors that she doesn't recognize how controlling she is and a good therapist can help you work through this....I would start with boundaries in your own home...do not allow her to come into your home and ignore you; do not allow her to dominate your time; do not allow her to take over your life...can you discuss with your wife the extent of calls and how inappropriate this is for a new mother?

I feel for you...I think if you approach your wife about this in a way that doesn't seem like attacking your MIL, you'll probably find that your wife is tired of it also....Be patient with your wife, but be strong about your boundaries...I hope this helps..

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi there,

You really did a great job explaining whats going on, which is helpful.

Sometimes we wish we could sit someone down, tell them what we've come to realize we need, and after the meeting, they are able to work with our rules. Honestly I dont think this is how change happens In a situation like yours. From how you describe your MIL, a meeting where you describe what you need, what you want and how she needs to behave towards your family (you, your wife, your baby) is not going to fit with how she lives her life.

If she was able to sit at meetings and take in what people say they need, and work towards a compromise and find the win-win for a problem, you probably wouldn't be in this situation.

Your needs and wants and rules are all sounding valid to me. The question is, what can change and how do you support that change?

Your MILs basic personality won't ever change. But anxiety isn't a personality trait. I dont know enough about this but I have read some about how some people enmesh thenselves out of fear of losing the relationship. They love their kids and they do not know how to deal with the anxiety so they "deal" with it by contacting them 30 times a day or something else that suffocates the other person.

Your wife knows that she can't change her mother. And boundaries are scary when a parent is needy.

My advice would be to find a way to create space in your marriage for your wife to be honest with you about how she feels day to day. The more understanding you and your wife have together, the easier it will become to find options for creating space for a different level of engagement with her and your MIL.

The word respect comes to mind. Do you feel disrespected by your MIL and if so, can you find a counsellor to talk with about what you end up doing when you feel disrespected? None of us likes feeling disrespected. I get quite angry inside when I feel disrespected by someone who is in my life daily.

It is not an easy situation but there are also counselors who can validate you as you think about what can change and what can't change.

You can ask your MIL not to call her daughter babe anymore but in my opnion that doesn't work. It doesn't work because your MIL does that for a reason. She may or may not know why she does it but she does do it to meet some need she has. You will end up in another chapter of the power struggle with her if you ask her to change all the things she does that you don't like .

My advice to you is different from the suggestions i offer when the person appears to have NPD. If you think your MIL has NPD, then the toolbox here is truly going to cover the main points you need to look at and how they apply to your relationships. If she is enmeshed and doesn't have NPD, then resources on enmeshment and marriage may help you as you work to find out what can change and what you can't change.

To be clear, boundaries are healthy regardless of if someone has a PD or not. Boundaries are about "this is what I need". Boundaries are not enforced through meetings where we tell someone how we wish they would behave. "You can only text 5 times a day" probably hasn't worked with her.

Because that's not really a boundary. A boundary is "From noon to 3 pm I will not reply to texts right now."

The problem with enmeshment of course is that the people have gotten used to trying to explain and justify instead of assert and stay calm. When I tried boundaries with my NPD family members, their response was always immediately about them. So my need to take a break from phone calls from noon to 3 pm (for example) was dismissed. I didn't need that. Nor did I need x or y or z that I would assert. It was always about them. I had no needs apparently. That's a PD thing.

You have needs, your wife has needs, the baby has needs, your MIL has needs.

A PD doesn't care if their family members feel respected. I firmly believe that. They may talk the talk but...

And a non-PD person can be a person who doesn't know how to have healthy boundaries.

Good luck. Trees

[NumbLotus]

You're not overreacting. That's not a good situation.

My thought is that your wife is likely feeling like she has to choose between two sides - her husband and her mother.

Now, she DOES need to - and the choice needs to be YOU, her husband. Her mother is way out of line and this shouldn't even be a choice to make.

But her mother raised her in a way where she feels she needs her mother, and she needs to keep her mother happy. So she doesn't see/understand how messed up this is, and she feels caught between a rock and a hard place.

My suggestion to you is to approach it like this. Instead of telling your wife what her mother is doing wrong and anything that will cause her to feel like she has to defend her - support your wife's feelings.

Let's say your MIL calls your wife and says "I'm coming over RIGHT NOW" and your wife is feeling tired.

Instead of "tell your mother now is not good" or "the nerve of her" or "that's just disrespectful" or "I'm tired of her running our lives" - try "wow, babe, I know you were looking forward to just relaxing tonight." She says "Oh, it's okay, Mom just worries." And you say "I can see how she puts that worry on you. It must be hard."

For a little while, just supporting her feelings without adding your own or making judgemental statements about your MIL.

That can't be forever. You guys have to progress beyond that. But she might start seeing how messed up things are better if she feels safe with you rather than feeling like she has to defend her mother or herself.

Good luck, this sounds like a heavy load.

[Alexmom]

Your MIL is an interloper which your wife is allowing into your marriage.  You have a huge marital issue here.  I had a similar issue involving my DH and his mom but not to the level.   My MIL resented me for taking her son away and I am sure it's the same scenario with your MIL - you took her "baby" away - so she will resent you, which will shift to your wife if your wife ever has the strength to really distance herself from her mom and recognize the damage her mom is causing to your marriage and the sacred bond that should be formed with you, to the exclusion of her mom.  I think this level of enmeshment requires a professional.  If your wife isn't willing to take this step and do the work, it probably means she doesn't want to make a changes at this point in her life.  I am sorry you are dealing with this very difficult problem.  It is not the way a marriage should be. 

[all4peace]

Welcome! What a tough situation. I agree with you and others that this isn't normal or healthy. There's a phrase used often around here: "leave and cleave." It refers to the concept that once we're married (or simply adults), we differentiate from our parents and move into our own adult, independent/interdependent life.

My husband's parents have a different version of this, and for us it took outside observers for my DH to begin to see how messed up it was. My voice had simply become a complaining noise, saying the same thing over and over. Marriage counseling was highly beneficial for us. Rather than blaming me for "making him see" how his family dysfunctioned, it simply became a fact that other people could observe also.

This is really difficult stuff, and I'm guessing your MIL won't give up easily. It's a strange situation to feel like you're fighting with a parent for your own mate. Please understand that it will be very, very difficult for your wife to change, no matter how much she loves you or her family. Her brain was trained into this way of being since birth, and it takes a LOT of time, patience, hard work and pain to change this type of conditioning. But it can be done. This forum is full of people who have come out of dynamics like this and learned boundaries.

Boundaries is a book by Cloud and Townsend that's a good basic book on boundaries.
The Adult Child of Emotionally Immature Parents is another fantastic book about having challenging parents.
The forum itself has loads of glossary terms and articles to help put words to these dynamics.
And we all love supporting people trying to come Out of the FOG.

Again, welcome!

[Leonor]

Welcome to you from a formerly enmeshed daughter. I am here to share with you that there is hope. And I understand the level of enmeshment ... at one point in my life I thought that if anything ever happened to my mother I would cease to exist, because I felt my life had no meaning without her. And I was a 30-something graduate student at the time!

I would also like to suggest, very gently, that your daughter is more than manipulated or enmeshed. Your description of your mother's behavior is emotional incest: she is treating your daughter like an intimate partner, not an adult, mother and wife.

This is an extremely complex and sensitive dynamic. And while I don't know much about your wife's experience, I would not be surprised if at some point in your wife's life her mother had encroached her physical boundaries, especially when she was young. It is clear by your mil's curiosity about her daughter's honeymoon, terms of intimate endearment, and the weird sensations you pick up on on their conversations. The weirdness is that her mother is pushing you out of the way to replace, not you as her daughter's spouse, but her own "missing" intimate partner with your wife.

With the birth of a new baby, it is important for you as the man of the family to step in and establish clear boundaries around your baby daughter. These kinds of "special relationships" are exploitative and it's common for an abuser to transfer her attentions from the adult woman to a younger female who can provide the same acquiescence and innocent attachment your mil demands. You cannot control your wife, but you can protect your daughter: limit visits to short periods of time. Remain present when mil is near your baby. Do not allow inappropriate comments and challenge any infringement on your place as the parent and your mil's place as a guest.

In the meantime, I would encourage you to read books for partners of survivors of sexual abuse. Even if your mil or anyone else ever "touched" your wife inappropriately, her behavior is violating and overly intimate, even sexualized.

Start with you. Draw upon your own strength. Step into your role as father with confidence and integrity. And do look into more information on covert incest / emotional abuse, to understand the dynamic in your marriage and wife's relationship with her mother.

Again, there is hope! Your wife chose to marry and start a family with *you* because, deep down, she knows her relationship with her mother is unhealthy and she's unhappy, but she is lost and at the start of a painful, but ultimately healing, process.

You can have the marriage you want with the woman you love, and your wife is strong enough to break the cycle of abuse in her family and create a family of wellness and happiness with you by her side. As she bonds with your baby, she will notice more how she was abused and move towards health for your baby's sake. At some point, it will be necessary and an enormous relief to seek outside support from groups and therapists.

Be well, and congratulations on the birth of your daughter. She is a lucky little girl to have such a wise and protective papa!